CDZ Politics - The Road Less Travelled

[DonaldFG]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

 

[Slade3200]

Following national politics in today's society is just about as enriching as watching the karsashians or some other garbage reality tv show. You can't trust anything you hear, everybody manipulates the facts to progress their agenda, there are endless arguments of bloated talking points, and shock value seems to be valued more than respectable debate.

I do agree with you on a community level as there is still a hope to have your voice heard and to make a difference in your neighborhood. Action on this level should definitely be encouraged

 

[Andylusion]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

 

[Elvis Obama]

"Each speaker will present the substance of each demand, which will be conveyed to their members of Congress via organized “Citizen Summons” in each Congressional District."

Uhh, yeah? That doesn't sound like much. Politicians respond to threats to their power. Not organized petitions. We need a "throw the bastards out" party. "Make Politicians Fear You!" should be the t-shirt.

 

[Slade3200]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

You use blanket ideology as a driver to all policy decisions which is always going to go nowhere. However when it comes to actual policy, progress can be made through strategy and debate. Take a specific problem, a SPECIFIC problem, and propose a liberal and conservative solution, the argument can be vetted... Analizing budgets, action items, allocation of resources, etc etc etc. with all these things considered, it is possible to reach a consensus as to the best strategy moving forward. There is virtue in both liberal and conservative agendas.

What's killing our federal government are the absolutist and obstructionist and the fact that both sides can no longer work effectively together because they are In a constant state of campaigning. They can't pass a law against their core ideology without reaping the consequences come fund raising and election time. This creates bloated over complicated bills and A very ineffective system of governing.

 

[Andylusion]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

You use blanket ideology as a driver to all policy decisions which is always going to go nowhere. However when it comes to actual policy, progress can be made through strategy and debate. Take a specific problem, a SPECIFIC problem, and propose a liberal and conservative solution, the argument can be vetted... Analizing budgets, action items, allocation of resources, etc etc etc. with all these things considered, it is possible to reach a consensus as to the best strategy moving forward. There is virtue in both liberal and conservative agendas.

What's killing our federal government are the absolutist and obstructionist and the fact that both sides can no longer work effectively together because they are In a constant state of campaigning. They can't pass a law against their core ideology without reaping the consequences come fund raising and election time. This creates bloated over complicated bills and A very ineffective system of governing.

I don't know how you claim that "constant state of campaigning" is the problem when we've seen hundreds of examples of major bills being passed by government.

It's easy to claim in abstract that such a problem could be fixed, but try naming one. What specific problem do you think we need to fix? I betcha we'd end up in a deadlock on this forum over the solution, if pinned done one specific problem.

And the fact we have hundreds of threads on this forums, covering a plethora of specific "problems", that have ended up in deadlock, seems to prove my case.

Moreover, "absolutists and obstructionists" are generally people who disagree on the solution, and are preventing a bad policy from being enforced.

Which again, proves my point. What do you think that's all about? It's about two groups of people, who have discussed the situation, and disagree on the solution.

 

[Andylusion]

"Each speaker will present the substance of each demand, which will be conveyed to their members of Congress via organized “Citizen Summons” in each Congressional District."

Uhh, yeah? That doesn't sound like much. Politicians respond to threats to their power. Not organized petitions. We need a "throw the bastards out" party. "Make Politicians Fear You!" should be the t-shirt.

Um.. No. Good luck with that. In order to have your "throw the bastards out" party, you would still need a majority of the vote. IF you had a majority of the vote, they wouldn't have been voted in office to begin with. So clearly you don't, which means you are still not going to be a threat.

The solution is to convince more Americans of a specific view. If you can't, then you lose, and that's how voting works. If you do, then you'll win and succeed in your goals. The idea you are going to force change, when the majority doesn't support your change, because you want to 'throw the bastards out', isn't going to work.

 

[Elvis Obama]

"Each speaker will present the substance of each demand, which will be conveyed to their members of Congress via organized “Citizen Summons” in each Congressional District."

Uhh, yeah? That doesn't sound like much. Politicians respond to threats to their power. Not organized petitions. We need a "throw the bastards out" party. "Make Politicians Fear You!" should be the t-shirt.

Um.. No. Good luck with that. In order to have your "throw the bastards out" party, you would still need a majority of the vote. IF you had a majority of the vote, they wouldn't have been voted in office to begin with. So clearly you don't, which means you are still not going to be a threat.

The solution is to convince more Americans of a specific view. If you can't, then you lose, and that's how voting works. If you do, then you'll win and succeed in your goals. The idea you are going to force change, when the majority doesn't support your change, because you want to 'throw the bastards out', isn't going to work.

I didn't really understand what you wrote, but I get the impression you didn't understand what I wrote either. I was being facetious about a "throw the bastards out" party. Such an idea is the antithesis of political parties, which exist to retain power, not give it up. My point was that an electorate which has a 90+% disapproval rating for Congress, and also maintains a 90+ re-election rate for Congress is a joke. A joke which Congress members laugh about on a daily basis. Except the day after Eric Cantor was thrown out of office for... whatever the hell reason, insufficient conservative purity, whatever. That threw the fear of God into those worthless traitors. Imagine what would happen if they all got canned. If the re-election rate reflected the disapproval rate.

We don't need a savior to come along. We just need to prove worthy of the system we have. We're the personnel directors of the American political system and we suck at our job.

 

[Slade3200]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

You use blanket ideology as a driver to all policy decisions which is always going to go nowhere. However when it comes to actual policy, progress can be made through strategy and debate. Take a specific problem, a SPECIFIC problem, and propose a liberal and conservative solution, the argument can be vetted... Analizing budgets, action items, allocation of resources, etc etc etc. with all these things considered, it is possible to reach a consensus as to the best strategy moving forward. There is virtue in both liberal and conservative agendas.

What's killing our federal government are the absolutist and obstructionist and the fact that both sides can no longer work effectively together because they are In a constant state of campaigning. They can't pass a law against their core ideology without reaping the consequences come fund raising and election time. This creates bloated over complicated bills and A very ineffective system of governing.

I don't know how you claim that "constant state of campaigning" is the problem when we've seen hundreds of examples of major bills being passed by government.

It's easy to claim in abstract that such a problem could be fixed, but try naming one. What specific problem do you think we need to fix? I betcha we'd end up in a deadlock on this forum over the solution, if pinned done one specific problem.

And the fact we have hundreds of threads on this forums, covering a plethora of specific "problems", that have ended up in deadlock, seems to prove my case.

Moreover, "absolutists and obstructionists" are generally people who disagree on the solution, and are preventing a bad policy from being enforced.

Which again, proves my point. What do you think that's all about? It's about two groups of people, who have discussed the situation, and disagree on the solution.

We are ill equipped to deal with any national policy on this forum because we as citizens are uninformed idiots. We think we know everything that is going on because we read a few articles or watch the news but that doesn't even crack the egg. Having a detailed understanding of how our economy works in itself is a full time job, add together the inclusion of every proposed law and policy presented from special interests to military to government programs... It takes fully dedicated and highly intelligent individuals to be qualified to understand and act on national policy. Many of our government officials fall short. Most if not all of us, the public, fall short, simply do to lack of information

 

[Andylusion]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

You use blanket ideology as a driver to all policy decisions which is always going to go nowhere. However when it comes to actual policy, progress can be made through strategy and debate. Take a specific problem, a SPECIFIC problem, and propose a liberal and conservative solution, the argument can be vetted... Analizing budgets, action items, allocation of resources, etc etc etc. with all these things considered, it is possible to reach a consensus as to the best strategy moving forward. There is virtue in both liberal and conservative agendas.

What's killing our federal government are the absolutist and obstructionist and the fact that both sides can no longer work effectively together because they are In a constant state of campaigning. They can't pass a law against their core ideology without reaping the consequences come fund raising and election time. This creates bloated over complicated bills and A very ineffective system of governing.

I don't know how you claim that "constant state of campaigning" is the problem when we've seen hundreds of examples of major bills being passed by government.

It's easy to claim in abstract that such a problem could be fixed, but try naming one. What specific problem do you think we need to fix? I betcha we'd end up in a deadlock on this forum over the solution, if pinned done one specific problem.

And the fact we have hundreds of threads on this forums, covering a plethora of specific "problems", that have ended up in deadlock, seems to prove my case.

Moreover, "absolutists and obstructionists" are generally people who disagree on the solution, and are preventing a bad policy from being enforced.

Which again, proves my point. What do you think that's all about? It's about two groups of people, who have discussed the situation, and disagree on the solution.

We are ill equipped to deal with any national policy on this forum because we as citizens are uninformed idiots. We think we know everything that is going on because we read a few articles or watch the news but that doesn't even crack the egg. Having a detailed understanding of how our economy works in itself is a full time job, add together the inclusion of every proposed law and policy presented from special interests to military to government programs... It takes fully dedicated and highly intelligent individuals to be qualified to understand and act on national policy. Many of our government officials fall short. Most if not all of us, the public, fall short, simply do to lack of information

Even if we did have all the information. It doesn't matter. One thing people never seem to grasp is that even if we had all the information in the world... there are people who still wouldn't care.

I remember talking about the minimum wage, and showing all the evidence from here, and around the world. And the answer I got back was "Yeah, but I just think it's wrong that people earn so little. We should increase the minimum wage".

And then having them say "McDonald's can afford it" and explaining that most McDonalds are franchises, and didn't have the money to afford it. The response I got was "Yeah but McDonalds CEO made X, so he can afford it".

See... no amount of facts, or information is going to make people change their minds. That's why I said, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If you convince him with all the evidence, all the facts, all the truth you want, against his will..... he's of the same opinion still.

 

[Slade3200]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

You use blanket ideology as a driver to all policy decisions which is always going to go nowhere. However when it comes to actual policy, progress can be made through strategy and debate. Take a specific problem, a SPECIFIC problem, and propose a liberal and conservative solution, the argument can be vetted... Analizing budgets, action items, allocation of resources, etc etc etc. with all these things considered, it is possible to reach a consensus as to the best strategy moving forward. There is virtue in both liberal and conservative agendas.

What's killing our federal government are the absolutist and obstructionist and the fact that both sides can no longer work effectively together because they are In a constant state of campaigning. They can't pass a law against their core ideology without reaping the consequences come fund raising and election time. This creates bloated over complicated bills and A very ineffective system of governing.

I don't know how you claim that "constant state of campaigning" is the problem when we've seen hundreds of examples of major bills being passed by government.

It's easy to claim in abstract that such a problem could be fixed, but try naming one. What specific problem do you think we need to fix? I betcha we'd end up in a deadlock on this forum over the solution, if pinned done one specific problem.

And the fact we have hundreds of threads on this forums, covering a plethora of specific "problems", that have ended up in deadlock, seems to prove my case.

Moreover, "absolutists and obstructionists" are generally people who disagree on the solution, and are preventing a bad policy from being enforced.

Which again, proves my point. What do you think that's all about? It's about two groups of people, who have discussed the situation, and disagree on the solution.

We are ill equipped to deal with any national policy on this forum because we as citizens are uninformed idiots. We think we know everything that is going on because we read a few articles or watch the news but that doesn't even crack the egg. Having a detailed understanding of how our economy works in itself is a full time job, add together the inclusion of every proposed law and policy presented from special interests to military to government programs... It takes fully dedicated and highly intelligent individuals to be qualified to understand and act on national policy. Many of our government officials fall short. Most if not all of us, the public, fall short, simply do to lack of information

Even if we did have all the information. It doesn't matter. One thing people never seem to grasp is that even if we had all the information in the world... there are people who still wouldn't care.

I remember talking about the minimum wage, and showing all the evidence from here, and around the world. And the answer I got back was "Yeah, but I just think it's wrong that people earn so little. We should increase the minimum wage".

And then having them say "McDonald's can afford it" and explaining that most McDonalds are franchises, and didn't have the money to afford it. The response I got was "Yeah but McDonalds CEO made X, so he can afford it".

See... no amount of facts, or information is going to make people change their minds. That's why I said, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If you convince him with all the evidence, all the facts, all the truth you want, against his will..... he's of the same opinion still.

The worst people to talk to are the hyper partisans that aren't open to new information or able to back up their view with rational arguments. Both sides have these people. For the rational majority who sit in the middle it is all about education and information. We all have very similar goals... To live long and prosper. Different methods to get there but if one stragedy can be implemented and show sucess then it sets a foundation to grow... We should be learning from our mistakes and improving our policies to produce better successes. Yes compromises have to made for the issues that do not line up to common goals, but that's the nature of our world. If you can't see how our corrupt campaign system hinders progress then you are missing a big piece of the puzzle. It is perhaps one of the biggest issues in our government

 

[Elvis Obama]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

You use blanket ideology as a driver to all policy decisions which is always going to go nowhere. However when it comes to actual policy, progress can be made through strategy and debate. Take a specific problem, a SPECIFIC problem, and propose a liberal and conservative solution, the argument can be vetted... Analizing budgets, action items, allocation of resources, etc etc etc. with all these things considered, it is possible to reach a consensus as to the best strategy moving forward. There is virtue in both liberal and conservative agendas.

What's killing our federal government are the absolutist and obstructionist and the fact that both sides can no longer work effectively together because they are In a constant state of campaigning. They can't pass a law against their core ideology without reaping the consequences come fund raising and election time. This creates bloated over complicated bills and A very ineffective system of governing.

I don't know how you claim that "constant state of campaigning" is the problem when we've seen hundreds of examples of major bills being passed by government.

It's easy to claim in abstract that such a problem could be fixed, but try naming one. What specific problem do you think we need to fix? I betcha we'd end up in a deadlock on this forum over the solution, if pinned done one specific problem.

And the fact we have hundreds of threads on this forums, covering a plethora of specific "problems", that have ended up in deadlock, seems to prove my case.

Moreover, "absolutists and obstructionists" are generally people who disagree on the solution, and are preventing a bad policy from being enforced.

Which again, proves my point. What do you think that's all about? It's about two groups of people, who have discussed the situation, and disagree on the solution.

We are ill equipped to deal with any national policy on this forum because we as citizens are uninformed idiots. We think we know everything that is going on because we read a few articles or watch the news but that doesn't even crack the egg. Having a detailed understanding of how our economy works in itself is a full time job, add together the inclusion of every proposed law and policy presented from special interests to military to government programs... It takes fully dedicated and highly intelligent individuals to be qualified to understand and act on national policy. Many of our government officials fall short. Most if not all of us, the public, fall short, simply do to lack of information

Even if we did have all the information. It doesn't matter. One thing people never seem to grasp is that even if we had all the information in the world... there are people who still wouldn't care.

I remember talking about the minimum wage, and showing all the evidence from here, and around the world. And the answer I got back was "Yeah, but I just think it's wrong that people earn so little. We should increase the minimum wage".

And then having them say "McDonald's can afford it" and explaining that most McDonalds are franchises, and didn't have the money to afford it. The response I got was "Yeah but McDonalds CEO made X, so he can afford it".

See... no amount of facts, or information is going to make people change their minds. That's why I said, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If you convince him with all the evidence, all the facts, all the truth you want, against his will..... he's of the same opinion still.

Geeze, that's a bit gloomy. If education makes no difference, if there is no point to teaching people to be good citizens, then we are doomed and will do nothing but continue our present slide into decadence and sloth. Even if education would help, we're so far failing to educate, so we wind up in the same hole either way. I believe that education can pay dividends, though. If we can figure out how to teach really interesting material in an interesting way, rather than making it an exercise in tedium.

 

[Andylusion]

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

You use blanket ideology as a driver to all policy decisions which is always going to go nowhere. However when it comes to actual policy, progress can be made through strategy and debate. Take a specific problem, a SPECIFIC problem, and propose a liberal and conservative solution, the argument can be vetted... Analizing budgets, action items, allocation of resources, etc etc etc. with all these things considered, it is possible to reach a consensus as to the best strategy moving forward. There is virtue in both liberal and conservative agendas.

What's killing our federal government are the absolutist and obstructionist and the fact that both sides can no longer work effectively together because they are In a constant state of campaigning. They can't pass a law against their core ideology without reaping the consequences come fund raising and election time. This creates bloated over complicated bills and A very ineffective system of governing.

I don't know how you claim that "constant state of campaigning" is the problem when we've seen hundreds of examples of major bills being passed by government.

It's easy to claim in abstract that such a problem could be fixed, but try naming one. What specific problem do you think we need to fix? I betcha we'd end up in a deadlock on this forum over the solution, if pinned done one specific problem.

And the fact we have hundreds of threads on this forums, covering a plethora of specific "problems", that have ended up in deadlock, seems to prove my case.

Moreover, "absolutists and obstructionists" are generally people who disagree on the solution, and are preventing a bad policy from being enforced.

Which again, proves my point. What do you think that's all about? It's about two groups of people, who have discussed the situation, and disagree on the solution.

We are ill equipped to deal with any national policy on this forum because we as citizens are uninformed idiots. We think we know everything that is going on because we read a few articles or watch the news but that doesn't even crack the egg. Having a detailed understanding of how our economy works in itself is a full time job, add together the inclusion of every proposed law and policy presented from special interests to military to government programs... It takes fully dedicated and highly intelligent individuals to be qualified to understand and act on national policy. Many of our government officials fall short. Most if not all of us, the public, fall short, simply do to lack of information

Even if we did have all the information. It doesn't matter. One thing people never seem to grasp is that even if we had all the information in the world... there are people who still wouldn't care.

I remember talking about the minimum wage, and showing all the evidence from here, and around the world. And the answer I got back was "Yeah, but I just think it's wrong that people earn so little. We should increase the minimum wage".

And then having them say "McDonald's can afford it" and explaining that most McDonalds are franchises, and didn't have the money to afford it. The response I got was "Yeah but McDonalds CEO made X, so he can afford it".

See... no amount of facts, or information is going to make people change their minds. That's why I said, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If you convince him with all the evidence, all the facts, all the truth you want, against his will..... he's of the same opinion still.

Geeze, that's a bit gloomy. If education makes no difference, if there is no point to teaching people to be good citizens, then we are doomed and will do nothing but continue our present slide into decadence and sloth. Even if education would help, we're so far failing to educate, so we wind up in the same hole either way. I believe that education can pay dividends, though. If we can figure out how to teach really interesting material in an interesting way, rather than making it an exercise in tedium.

I pretty much agree with your assessment of my position.

Hm. Interesting material? Math isn't interesting. You simply have to do it. That's part of the problem, is we think we have to make it interesting. If you want to be good at piano, you have to play scales over and over and over. It's tedious. You can't make practicing fun. You just have to do it, over and over and over.

Not to say some people naturally have a gift of enjoying it. There are some. But most... simply have to just do it.

I hate this idea that we have to make it fun. No, we don't. And honestly, we shouldn't. Now I'm not saying we should make life as miserable as possible, of course not.

But I was just working for a short time at a company where they hired a guy with a degree in engineering, but he had never worked a day in his entire life. He couldn't get anyone to hire him, until he got a job through his college, with the company I was working at. But he didn't want to work. He missed every other day, didn't want to come in on time. It wasn't fun anymore.

I'm convinced this is part of the reason so many marriages fail... and so many people want to shack up and never get married at all. Why? Marriage isn't always fun. Sometimes it's hard work. Sometimes there are family problems. Sometimes you have to deal with kids. Isn't that how that stupid song goes?


You aint much fun... since I quit drinking.

So I'll divorce and find someone else, so I can have fun all the time.

Isn't this why we have people who are 40 years old, still playing video games in their mothers house, who never grew up?

If I only did what was interesting to me, I'd have been unemployed, broke and homeless, over a decade ago.

No, we don't need to make learning "interesting". We don't need to make life "fun" all the time for our kids. Life is hard, and it's boring, and it's tedious. The sooner you teach your kids that, the better off they'll be in life. They'll be able to make it through the hard times, and not into a wishy washy mess every time life isn't fun anymore. They won't end up a 23 year old, with a 4 year degree in engineering, who can't show up for work because it's not interesting, and then wonder why no one will hire him.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It's amazing how many people avoid talking about politics. They appear to be afraid of getting into a nasty argument because there are so many hot-button issues today that fire people up. And they want to keep their friends, of course. Usually during election cycles we see many bumper stickers for one candidate or another. Lately though, bumpers are bare, at least in my area of the country. But being disengaged from politics does not solve much. If we don't discuss the issues that affect us, how can we ever agree on solutions to these issues?

On a recent TV interview, Ralph Nader said, "If you're not into politics, politics will be into you - in a very disagreeable way."

Nader is right! Bad things happen, will continuing happening, and will be worse until the public applies opposing pressure to their government. In other words, government is what we make it. It needs to be controlled because those who would take advantage of us will control it otherwise.

I always liked the idea of regular town hall meetings of the old fashioned New England style where citizens in each village or city would discuss openly the issues impacting them in their everyday lives. Politics is power, and when citizens get together in this way they can solve problems.

In Breaking through Power, successful public interest groups are joining forces to show how such meetings can be organized to overcome the lack of attention to our needs by our government. Check it out!

Correct.

Change can occur only at the very local level – not from the top down.

 

[DonaldFG]

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

I am not talking about issues we differ on, and neither is this conference about that. The whole point is to come together on issues we all agree upon by large percentages. And there are many! But although the public has a strong majority opinion, the government still ignores us. We have the power to change that.

Your broad statements about socialism versus capitalism is an example of an imperial hammerhead (propaganda) to keep us separated and without power. How do you feel about listeria in your food? That is a better question for us to gang up on.

 

[DonaldFG]

"Each speaker will present the substance of each demand, which will be conveyed to their members of Congress via organized “Citizen Summons” in each Congressional District."

Uhh, yeah? That doesn't sound like much. Politicians respond to threats to their power. Not organized petitions. We need a "throw the bastards out" party. "Make Politicians Fear You!" should be the t-shirt.

These town hall meetings will be run by citizens, not by the politicians who are invited to attend. Their constituents will be asking the questions, and the pressure on the representative will be enormous to act on what he hears when returning to work.

Parties are another means to keep us separated. Forming a new party will not help.

 

[DonaldFG]

...
And then having them say "McDonald's can afford it" and explaining that most McDonalds are franchises, and didn't have the money to afford it. The response I got was "Yeah but McDonalds CEO made X, so he can afford it".

See... no amount of facts, or information is going to make people change their minds. That's why I said, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If you convince him with all the evidence, all the facts, all the truth you want, against his will..... he's of the same opinion still.

The way I look at it, if McDonald's can't afford the minimum wage for whatever reason, then there is something wrong with their business plan. Taking advantage of workers is not a good plan. And that is true for all businesses.

 

[DonaldFG]

Geeze, that's a bit gloomy. If education makes no difference, if there is no point to teaching people to be good citizens, then we are doomed and will do nothing but continue our present slide into decadence and sloth. Even if education would help, we're so far failing to educate, so we wind up in the same hole either way. I believe that education can pay dividends, though. If we can figure out how to teach really interesting material in an interesting way, rather than making it an exercise in tedium.

We have schools and teachers who have figured out how to make studying and learning interesting. We just don't have enough of them. We need to take the best ideas and make them universal in our schools.

 

[Elvis Obama]

You use blanket ideology as a driver to all policy decisions which is always going to go nowhere. However when it comes to actual policy, progress can be made through strategy and debate. Take a specific problem, a SPECIFIC problem, and propose a liberal and conservative solution, the argument can be vetted... Analizing budgets, action items, allocation of resources, etc etc etc. with all these things considered, it is possible to reach a consensus as to the best strategy moving forward. There is virtue in both liberal and conservative agendas.

What's killing our federal government are the absolutist and obstructionist and the fact that both sides can no longer work effectively together because they are In a constant state of campaigning. They can't pass a law against their core ideology without reaping the consequences come fund raising and election time. This creates bloated over complicated bills and A very ineffective system of governing.

I don't know how you claim that "constant state of campaigning" is the problem when we've seen hundreds of examples of major bills being passed by government.

It's easy to claim in abstract that such a problem could be fixed, but try naming one. What specific problem do you think we need to fix? I betcha we'd end up in a deadlock on this forum over the solution, if pinned done one specific problem.

And the fact we have hundreds of threads on this forums, covering a plethora of specific "problems", that have ended up in deadlock, seems to prove my case.

Moreover, "absolutists and obstructionists" are generally people who disagree on the solution, and are preventing a bad policy from being enforced.

Which again, proves my point. What do you think that's all about? It's about two groups of people, who have discussed the situation, and disagree on the solution.

We are ill equipped to deal with any national policy on this forum because we as citizens are uninformed idiots. We think we know everything that is going on because we read a few articles or watch the news but that doesn't even crack the egg. Having a detailed understanding of how our economy works in itself is a full time job, add together the inclusion of every proposed law and policy presented from special interests to military to government programs... It takes fully dedicated and highly intelligent individuals to be qualified to understand and act on national policy. Many of our government officials fall short. Most if not all of us, the public, fall short, simply do to lack of information

Even if we did have all the information. It doesn't matter. One thing people never seem to grasp is that even if we had all the information in the world... there are people who still wouldn't care.

I remember talking about the minimum wage, and showing all the evidence from here, and around the world. And the answer I got back was "Yeah, but I just think it's wrong that people earn so little. We should increase the minimum wage".

And then having them say "McDonald's can afford it" and explaining that most McDonalds are franchises, and didn't have the money to afford it. The response I got was "Yeah but McDonalds CEO made X, so he can afford it".

See... no amount of facts, or information is going to make people change their minds. That's why I said, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If you convince him with all the evidence, all the facts, all the truth you want, against his will..... he's of the same opinion still.

Geeze, that's a bit gloomy. If education makes no difference, if there is no point to teaching people to be good citizens, then we are doomed and will do nothing but continue our present slide into decadence and sloth. Even if education would help, we're so far failing to educate, so we wind up in the same hole either way. I believe that education can pay dividends, though. If we can figure out how to teach really interesting material in an interesting way, rather than making it an exercise in tedium.

I pretty much agree with your assessment of my position.

Hm. Interesting material? Math isn't interesting. You simply have to do it. That's part of the problem, is we think we have to make it interesting. If you want to be good at piano, you have to play scales over and over and over. It's tedious. You can't make practicing fun. You just have to do it, over and over and over.

Not to say some people naturally have a gift of enjoying it. There are some. But most... simply have to just do it.

I hate this idea that we have to make it fun. No, we don't. And honestly, we shouldn't. Now I'm not saying we should make life as miserable as possible, of course not.

But I was just working for a short time at a company where they hired a guy with a degree in engineering, but he had never worked a day in his entire life. He couldn't get anyone to hire him, until he got a job through his college, with the company I was working at. But he didn't want to work. He missed every other day, didn't want to come in on time. It wasn't fun anymore.

I'm convinced this is part of the reason so many marriages fail... and so many people want to shack up and never get married at all. Why? Marriage isn't always fun. Sometimes it's hard work. Sometimes there are family problems. Sometimes you have to deal with kids. Isn't that how that stupid song goes?


You aint much fun... since I quit drinking.

So I'll divorce and find someone else, so I can have fun all the time.

Isn't this why we have people who are 40 years old, still playing video games in their mothers house, who never grew up?

If I only did what was interesting to me, I'd have been unemployed, broke and homeless, over a decade ago.

No, we don't need to make learning "interesting". We don't need to make life "fun" all the time for our kids. Life is hard, and it's boring, and it's tedious. The sooner you teach your kids that, the better off they'll be in life. They'll be able to make it through the hard times, and not into a wishy washy mess every time life isn't fun anymore. They won't end up a 23 year old, with a 4 year degree in engineering, who can't show up for work because it's not interesting, and then wonder why no one will hire him.

No, we don't need to make learning "interesting".

I'm gonna assume you've never taught. If you teach someone to think, then everything will be interesting to them. Your engineer is a waste of life. He's studied engineering and doesn't give a damn about the work? Someone who chooses engineering as a career for the right reasons will be enthusiastic about doing the work.

I agree that we're raising a generation of lazy, detached hedonists. I agree that we suck at teaching everything, including morality and personal responsibility. A part of that problem is caused by terrible teachers in terrible schools. People who suck all the life from life, leaving only by rote memorization and test disgorgement.

When I said "interesting", I was specifically referring to civics instruction. It's not a dull topic. At all. It's fascinating and more importantly, empowering, to learn about your own government and what your role in that government is. Teaching is not supposed to be dull. There's no virtue in that. If teacher "A" makes learning fulfilling and teacher "B" sends everyone to sleep, I want my kids in the classroom with teacher "A". Personal discipline and responsibility belongs in the classroom, but mostly that's the job of parents.

 

[320 Years of History]

I don't know how you claim that "constant state of campaigning" is the problem when we've seen hundreds of examples of major bills being passed by government.

It's easy to claim in abstract that such a problem could be fixed, but try naming one. What specific problem do you think we need to fix? I betcha we'd end up in a deadlock on this forum over the solution, if pinned done one specific problem.

And the fact we have hundreds of threads on this forums, covering a plethora of specific "problems", that have ended up in deadlock, seems to prove my case.

Moreover, "absolutists and obstructionists" are generally people who disagree on the solution, and are preventing a bad policy from being enforced.

Which again, proves my point. What do you think that's all about? It's about two groups of people, who have discussed the situation, and disagree on the solution.

We are ill equipped to deal with any national policy on this forum because we as citizens are uninformed idiots. We think we know everything that is going on because we read a few articles or watch the news but that doesn't even crack the egg. Having a detailed understanding of how our economy works in itself is a full time job, add together the inclusion of every proposed law and policy presented from special interests to military to government programs... It takes fully dedicated and highly intelligent individuals to be qualified to understand and act on national policy. Many of our government officials fall short. Most if not all of us, the public, fall short, simply do to lack of information

Even if we did have all the information. It doesn't matter. One thing people never seem to grasp is that even if we had all the information in the world... there are people who still wouldn't care.

I remember talking about the minimum wage, and showing all the evidence from here, and around the world. And the answer I got back was "Yeah, but I just think it's wrong that people earn so little. We should increase the minimum wage".

And then having them say "McDonald's can afford it" and explaining that most McDonalds are franchises, and didn't have the money to afford it. The response I got was "Yeah but McDonalds CEO made X, so he can afford it".

See... no amount of facts, or information is going to make people change their minds. That's why I said, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. If you convince him with all the evidence, all the facts, all the truth you want, against his will..... he's of the same opinion still.

Geeze, that's a bit gloomy. If education makes no difference, if there is no point to teaching people to be good citizens, then we are doomed and will do nothing but continue our present slide into decadence and sloth. Even if education would help, we're so far failing to educate, so we wind up in the same hole either way. I believe that education can pay dividends, though. If we can figure out how to teach really interesting material in an interesting way, rather than making it an exercise in tedium.

I pretty much agree with your assessment of my position.

Hm. Interesting material? Math isn't interesting. You simply have to do it. That's part of the problem, is we think we have to make it interesting. If you want to be good at piano, you have to play scales over and over and over. It's tedious. You can't make practicing fun. You just have to do it, over and over and over.

Not to say some people naturally have a gift of enjoying it. There are some. But most... simply have to just do it.

I hate this idea that we have to make it fun. No, we don't. And honestly, we shouldn't. Now I'm not saying we should make life as miserable as possible, of course not.

But I was just working for a short time at a company where they hired a guy with a degree in engineering, but he had never worked a day in his entire life. He couldn't get anyone to hire him, until he got a job through his college, with the company I was working at. But he didn't want to work. He missed every other day, didn't want to come in on time. It wasn't fun anymore.

I'm convinced this is part of the reason so many marriages fail... and so many people want to shack up and never get married at all. Why? Marriage isn't always fun. Sometimes it's hard work. Sometimes there are family problems. Sometimes you have to deal with kids. Isn't that how that stupid song goes?


You aint much fun... since I quit drinking.

So I'll divorce and find someone else, so I can have fun all the time.

Isn't this why we have people who are 40 years old, still playing video games in their mothers house, who never grew up?

If I only did what was interesting to me, I'd have been unemployed, broke and homeless, over a decade ago.

No, we don't need to make learning "interesting". We don't need to make life "fun" all the time for our kids. Life is hard, and it's boring, and it's tedious. The sooner you teach your kids that, the better off they'll be in life. They'll be able to make it through the hard times, and not into a wishy washy mess every time life isn't fun anymore. They won't end up a 23 year old, with a 4 year degree in engineering, who can't show up for work because it's not interesting, and then wonder why no one will hire him.

No, we don't need to make learning "interesting".

I'm gonna assume you've never taught. If you teach someone to think, then everything will be interesting to them. Your engineer is a waste of life. He's studied engineering and doesn't give a damn about the work? Someone who chooses engineering as a career for the right reasons will be enthusiastic about doing the work.

I agree that we're raising a generation of lazy, detached hedonists. I agree that we suck at teaching everything, including morality and personal responsibility. A part of that problem is caused by terrible teachers in terrible schools. People who suck all the life from life, leaving only by rote memorization and test disgorgement.

When I said "interesting", I was specifically referring to civics instruction. It's not a dull topic. At all. It's fascinating and more importantly, empowering, to learn about your own government and what your role in that government is. Teaching is not supposed to be dull. There's no virtue in that. If teacher "A" makes learning fulfilling and teacher "B" sends everyone to sleep, I want my kids in the classroom with teacher "A". Personal discipline and responsibility belongs in the classroom, but mostly that's the job of parents.

Red:
In my observation, children think everything is interesting from the start, well before even being adept thinkers and analysts. They are like sponges, eager to soak up every bit of information -- discrete facts as well as how to process those facts to achieve their own objects. Kids' innate curiosity about everything has to be nurtured on multiple fronts.

One dimension, the one everyone relatively well addresses is the straightforward objective one. This one is easy because it requires little effort of the part of the teacher (classroom or otherwise). The child expresses curiosity about X and the teacher tells them the facts about X. The outcome of doing this very well and repeatedly over time is that the kid discovers two things, one obvious and literal, the other tacit: (1) literally, the nature of X and (2) tacitly, that there are objective answers to all questions, that the world is a binary place. Of course, there are things that are distinct that way, but most of what one must evaluate in the course of living a life are not. Moreover, and equally if not more important, the child does not gain experience "putting two and two together," and s/he loses interest in "stuff" upon getting that binary answer.

For example, why the sky is blue isn't terribly interesting after one is told the atmosphere diffracts away from Earth all other colors except the pale shade of blue we see. On the other hand, the subject inspires all sorts of further curiosity when one takes the time to consider the properties of light, how the eye works, etc. And believe it or not, with just a few simple tools, engaging a even a small child (5 - 12 years old) in learning those concepts isn't beyond their capacity to understand if one just takes the time to help them do so.

My experience is that approaching the answer that way inspires even more questions, but then showing one's child how to evaluate simple facts to figure out the answers to them is part of what it means to be a teacher, be that as a parent, mentor, classroom teacher, or any other adult charged in some way with the growth and development of a child.

Unfortunately, I think far too many folks do the culturally American thing in attempting to do so: they seek the quick and easy way, and that boils down to teaching answers, hoping the child retains them, and measuring them on the basis of the extent to which they do. It's important to learn, for example, the various types of logical fallacies, but truly it doesn't matter much if one can rattle them off and define/describe every one of them. Nor does it matter if one confuses "this one" with "that one." And yet, at what point in a person's intellectual development does one typically learn how to think cogently, or at least what constitutes irrational lines of thought? For most folks, college.

Don't get me wrong, remembering data is important, but not as important as what one does cognitively with the information. For many people the process of learning how to be rigorous thinkers doesn't begin until they've spent nearly 20 years not doing so, spent ~20 years "getting by" and watching others do so too on the irrational thought and messages that pervade the human experience.

Blue:
I agree. That I think is another outcome of the approach to learning our society takes. When the Socratic approach to learning (in K-12) was discarded I cannot say. I can only say that it's having been tossed aside does a great disservice to most kids.

Green:
Unfortunately, we live in a world that forces people into conformity in terms of processes and outcomes. That model, IMO, penalizes teachers who don't conform to it. I believe that there isn't any singularly right approach to educating individuals, but our educational systems approach teaching as though there is. The only practical way I can identify that overcomes that shortcoming is for parents to fill the gap between the approach schools use and the way their child needs things presented.