CDZ Politics - The Road Less Travelled

[DonaldFG]

Folks don't want to hear Obama say we can't completely stop terrorists from attacking. It doesn't matter if he's right or being realistic; that is not the outcome we want.
...

I flagged your comment that I agree. I want to make one more comment though.

I believe that it is our wars that is creating terrorists. When you bomb people's homes and wipe out their families, what do you expect?

A kinder, gentler America honoring international law and not making war will go a long ways to solving this problem of terrorism.

I used to believe that almost exclusively and I understand what Obama has been trying to do this past eight years. Some of the extremist groups now hating on us, though, lead me to believe it's no longer going to work if we just pull out. We've become a symbolic monster to destroy. Everyone needs one of them, to keep the rabble roused, right?

If the monster shows strongly that it is reforming itself and appologizes for past imperialism, hatred may start to ease off - especially if the monster helps by aiding reconstruction in good ways. I say good ways to indicate that using our construction companies is the wrong way to do it. We need to support their companies.

 

[DonaldFG]

Why do I never, ever, see you in the politics or current events threads? If you promote open discussion to find consensus, why aren't you trying to straighten us out?

I've been in those threads. And I usually get insulted, but I still go there occasionally. Frankly, USMB should try to clean up the type of insults that are thrown about. Those will send new members away quick. I used to take part in a forum (now defunct) that strongly recommended using your real name to get respectability. It worked pretty well for the most part. I think requiring that would be a great step forward in cutting nasty comments.

 

[Never3ndr]

I agree! The best way to clean up our government and politics is to be actively involved in them! I've recently started volunteering a bit locally to try and understand my local politics and issues a bit more as well as to have a better understanding in how the political parties conduct themselves.

Actually, the political parties are as corrupt as the government. And they are both corrupt for the same reasons. We, the people, need to make the rules.

The people are uninformed idiots and shouldn't be making the rules. What we should be doing is demanding a system that has accountability and is free of the corruption that comes from our campaign financing and special interest. Our leaders should be making the rules. We need to demand they do so freely, openly, and honestly without the influence that is currently strangling them

The majority of American citizens are not uninformed idiots.

If we do not make rules for accountability, politicians won't either. Think about it, how much difference has our "demands" made in the last fifty years?

Agreed, I misspoke before. I do think we should be making the rules and demanding a transparent and accountable system but NOT be making law or policy. We are uninformed idiots, especially when it comes to national security and economic issues... We only get a fraction of real information and its highly convoluted from our media and partisan politicians... And we only spend a fraction of time learning and thinking about these issues, while its a full time job for our leaders. We need to restore trust that the leadership is qualified and capable of making the right decisions for our country. I think many have lost that faith

I agree with you that we only get a fraction of the real information anyone would need to make responsible foreign policy or economic decisions, but I disagree that makes us "uninformed idiots." It is not the fault of schools, as some seem to think, because as you pointed out, understanding these issues is a full time job and a study in itself. Not everyone's cup of tea, nor should it be.

While the general public doesn't know the intricacies of how to achieve the results it wants, the general public does understand what it wants as an outcome. For instance, safety and security: Trump proposes banning Muslims from entering the country and building a wall between the US and Mexico, and a LOT of people are agreeing with him. Not because they hate Muslims or Mexicans, but because they crave safety and security. Posters here have pointed out some of the details and costs and current laws that could make Trump's plans difficult, but until someone can come up with a different answer that will assure the public of safety and security, people will support the proposal they understand. Folks don't want to hear Obama say we can't completely stop terrorists from attacking. It doesn't matter if he's right or being realistic; that is not the outcome we want.

So are you saying that those campaigning for office shouldn't propose any solutions, since we aren't smart enough to decide? If we don't know the tack they will take, how do we know who to vote for? Doesn't that end up as autocratic rule by the elite, those few in the know?

As a simple retort, a child believes that it wants ice cream and candy for every meal. Then should we, as adults with a better body of knowledge and experience, give that child the outcome they desire?

On your point about safety and security, many people do want this outcome. However, taking Trump specifically, the "track" he proposes fails to bring those outcomes to fruition. In fact, it can be argued quite reasonably that his "track" will bring us under greater danger than ever before. As it is right now we have the strongest military with the majority of the world respecting us or allying with us. On Trump's isolationist track, it is likely to see the US devolve into an ostracized state due to our radical policy changes, which would bring put us under greater danger of both terrorist attacks as well as perhaps even attacks from nations themselves.

 

[Andylusion]

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

I am not talking about issues we differ on, and neither is this conference about that. The whole point is to come together on issues we all agree upon by large percentages. And there are many! But although the public has a strong majority opinion, the government still ignores us. We have the power to change that.

Your broad statements about socialism versus capitalism is an example of an imperial hammerhead (propaganda) to keep us separated and without power. How do you feel about listeria in your food? That is a better question for us to gang up on.

Even with that question, I wager we completely differ. And saying we all "agree upon" by a majority, doesn't mean it's right.

58% of Americans support raising the minimum wage, and doing it year over year. Greece has that exact policy, and it tanked their entire country.

That's my whole point right here. The majority..... is ignorant. What you think we all agree on, is usually false. Just because 51% or more of the population agrees on it, doesn't mean it's right. Truth isn't determined by majority rule.

And the difference between Socialism and Capitalism, is not by any stretch imperial hammerhead, or propaganda. It is a fundamental world view that believes the best results come from people having the freedom to choose, or from some regulations and controls from ignorant law makers in Washington.

If being separated, and not having power, prevents you from screwing up my life... I"m for it. Even on listeria.

I actually agree with you on one point about the fact that the majority is ignorant and uninformed. National Defense issues are best left in the hands of the people that are actually in the know. Economic issues are open to debate but it is so complex and we have so many jerk offs throwing out false claims like Greeces fall was do to their minimum wage policy, which is complete BS and a much more complicated thing than a single issue like that... It takes a lifetime of education and experience to truly understand the scope and effects of economic policy and we don't need a bunch of blowholes deciding our direction based on simplistic single issue viewpoints. As for social policy, I believe the will of the majority is a significant factor in determining how we move forward.

And there you go proving my entire point. It's more than just being ignorant. It's about willfully choosing, and refusing, to except facts. Or even to debate the issue with an open mind.

The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies: Bryan Caplan: 9780691138732: Amazon.com: Books

This book, called Myth of the Rational Voter, is exactly what I'm talking about. Voters have never been rational. When you have a system of majority rule, you inherently have a rule of crazy. That's why nearly all democracies have ended in revolution and chaos.

Institutions vs. Policies: A Tale of Two Islands

This paper, tale of two islands, talks about Jamaica compared to Barbados. The people of Jamaica overwhelmingly supported the left-wing reforms that Michael Manley put in place in the 1970s. But those reforms pushed out jobs, and people started immigrating to the US.

Yet, when they immigrated, they ended up voting ideologically the same way they did in Jamaica, even though it ruined Jamaica.

Interestingly, economist Peter Blair Henry's family was native to Jamaica, and his father supported the protectionist policies Manley enacted. But it was exactly those policies that eliminated Henry's father's job, which is how Henry and his family ended up in the US.

Which brings me back to you, and this claim "Economic issues are open to debate but it is so complex and we have so many jerk offs throwing out false claims like Greeces fall was do to their minimum wage policy, which is complete BS and a much more complicated thing than a single issue like that"

Was your response based on facts, or opinion?

Was mine?

Have you compared the minimum wage rates in Greece, to the unemployment rates?

In 2004, the minimum wage in Greece, was 600 Euros a month. By 2012 it was almost 900 a month.

In 2004, the unemployment rate was 10% and falling. By 2012 it was 27%.

Not good enough for you? What happened in 2013? Do you know? They cut the minimum wage by 1/4th. From almost 900 Euros, to under 700. Want to know what else happened in 2013? 2013 to 2014 was the first year the unemployment rate reversed course, and started to fall.

How does that matter? What baring does that have on the government, and debt, and deficits, and defaulting?

You know that Germany is the leading economy in the EU, right? Before the common currency of the Euro, the 3rd largest reserve currency in the world, was the Deutsche Mark. That's how powerful the German economy was, and up until 2015, Germany never had a minimum wage. Now they do.

Minimum wage fuels Germany's underground economy | Business | DW.COM | 03.02.2015

Experts warn of a resurgence in Germany's underground economy after years of contraction. A new study shows that the introduction of a nationwide minimum wage is driving more workers into the shadows.​

What a shock. Employers not willing to pay the minimum wage, drive workers into the shadow economy. Where unreported, undocumented workers, collect UNTAXED pay checks. Which ironically, they are usually taking home more money, even though they are paid less wages.

What's this got to do with Greece?

http://www.economist.com/news/finan...ks-pay-more-tax-not-just-hard-risky-treasures

66% of the workers in Greece are in the shadow economy, not paying taxes. Obviously high tax rates also drive workers into the shadow economy alone. But as I've already pointed out, the unemployment rate fell the moment they cut the minimum wage. So just like Germany, the minimum wage pushes workers underground, and kills tax revenue... which is obviously what ruined Greece.

It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that Greece collasped when they enacted high tax, and high minimum wages, which caused fewer than 1 in 3 workers to pay taxes on their wages.

But back to you. Without considering any of this, you dismissed everything as BS.

That.... is exactly what I've been talking about. The idea that more democracy, and voters, even educated or not, is somehow going to have a good result... not likely.

 

[OldLady]

Actually, the political parties are as corrupt as the government. And they are both corrupt for the same reasons. We, the people, need to make the rules.

The people are uninformed idiots and shouldn't be making the rules. What we should be doing is demanding a system that has accountability and is free of the corruption that comes from our campaign financing and special interest. Our leaders should be making the rules. We need to demand they do so freely, openly, and honestly without the influence that is currently strangling them

The majority of American citizens are not uninformed idiots.

If we do not make rules for accountability, politicians won't either. Think about it, how much difference has our "demands" made in the last fifty years?

Agreed, I misspoke before. I do think we should be making the rules and demanding a transparent and accountable system but NOT be making law or policy. We are uninformed idiots, especially when it comes to national security and economic issues... We only get a fraction of real information and its highly convoluted from our media and partisan politicians... And we only spend a fraction of time learning and thinking about these issues, while its a full time job for our leaders. We need to restore trust that the leadership is qualified and capable of making the right decisions for our country. I think many have lost that faith

I agree with you that we only get a fraction of the real information anyone would need to make responsible foreign policy or economic decisions, but I disagree that makes us "uninformed idiots." It is not the fault of schools, as some seem to think, because as you pointed out, understanding these issues is a full time job and a study in itself. Not everyone's cup of tea, nor should it be.

While the general public doesn't know the intricacies of how to achieve the results it wants, the general public does understand what it wants as an outcome. For instance, safety and security: Trump proposes banning Muslims from entering the country and building a wall between the US and Mexico, and a LOT of people are agreeing with him. Not because they hate Muslims or Mexicans, but because they crave safety and security. Posters here have pointed out some of the details and costs and current laws that could make Trump's plans difficult, but until someone can come up with a different answer that will assure the public of safety and security, people will support the proposal they understand. Folks don't want to hear Obama say we can't completely stop terrorists from attacking. It doesn't matter if he's right or being realistic; that is not the outcome we want.

So are you saying that those campaigning for office shouldn't propose any solutions, since we aren't smart enough to decide? If we don't know the tack they will take, how do we know who to vote for? Doesn't that end up as autocratic rule by the elite, those few in the know?

As a simple retort, a child believes that it wants ice cream and candy for every meal. Then should we, as adults with a better body of knowledge and experience, give that child the outcome they desire?

On your point about safety and security, many people do want this outcome. However, taking Trump specifically, the "track" he proposes fails to bring those outcomes to fruition. In fact, it can be argued quite reasonably that his "track" will bring us under greater danger than ever before. As it is right now we have the strongest military with the majority of the world respecting us or allying with us. On Trump's isolationist track, it is likely to see the US devolve into an ostracized state due to our radical policy changes, which would bring put us under greater danger of both terrorist attacks as well as perhaps even attacks from nations themselves.

Who is the adult who knows better than us "children?" I was using Trump as an example, not because I agree with him. I honestly don't know what the best tactics are in the Middle East or elsewhere, and I agree we should elect people we trust to hire well versed experts to guide them. However, even in that, there are experts who argue very different positions on this.
Although the American electorate is currently acting pretty darned stupid (imo) I hesitate to leave everything to the adults who THINK they know what's best for us. An enlightened, benevolent despot is still a despot.

 

[OldLady]

Actually, the political parties are as corrupt as the government. And they are both corrupt for the same reasons. We, the people, need to make the rules.

The people are uninformed idiots and shouldn't be making the rules. What we should be doing is demanding a system that has accountability and is free of the corruption that comes from our campaign financing and special interest. Our leaders should be making the rules. We need to demand they do so freely, openly, and honestly without the influence that is currently strangling them

The majority of American citizens are not uninformed idiots.

If we do not make rules for accountability, politicians won't either. Think about it, how much difference has our "demands" made in the last fifty years?

Agreed, I misspoke before. I do think we should be making the rules and demanding a transparent and accountable system but NOT be making law or policy. We are uninformed idiots, especially when it comes to national security and economic issues... We only get a fraction of real information and its highly convoluted from our media and partisan politicians... And we only spend a fraction of time learning and thinking about these issues, while its a full time job for our leaders. We need to restore trust that the leadership is qualified and capable of making the right decisions for our country. I think many have lost that faith

I agree with you that we only get a fraction of the real information anyone would need to make responsible foreign policy or economic decisions, but I disagree that makes us "uninformed idiots." It is not the fault of schools, as some seem to think, because as you pointed out, understanding these issues is a full time job and a study in itself. Not everyone's cup of tea, nor should it be.

While the general public doesn't know the intricacies of how to achieve the results it wants, the general public does understand what it wants as an outcome. For instance, safety and security: Trump proposes banning Muslims from entering the country and building a wall between the US and Mexico, and a LOT of people are agreeing with him. Not because they hate Muslims or Mexicans, but because they crave safety and security. Posters here have pointed out some of the details and costs and current laws that could make Trump's plans difficult, but until someone can come up with a different answer that will assure the public of safety and security, people will support the proposal they understand. Folks don't want to hear Obama say we can't completely stop terrorists from attacking. It doesn't matter if he's right or being realistic; that is not the outcome we want.

So are you saying that those campaigning for office shouldn't propose any solutions, since we aren't smart enough to decide? If we don't know the tack they will take, how do we know who to vote for? Doesn't that end up as autocratic rule by the elite, those few in the know?

As a simple retort, a child believes that it wants ice cream and candy for every meal. Then should we, as adults with a better body of knowledge and experience, give that child the outcome they desire?

On your point about safety and security, many people do want this outcome. However, taking Trump specifically, the "track" he proposes fails to bring those outcomes to fruition. In fact, it can be argued quite reasonably that his "track" will bring us under greater danger than ever before. As it is right now we have the strongest military with the majority of the world respecting us or allying with us. On Trump's isolationist track, it is likely to see the US devolve into an ostracized state due to our radical policy changes, which would bring put us under greater danger of both terrorist attacks as well as perhaps even attacks from nations themselves.

Who is the adult who knows better than us "children?" I was using Trump as an example, not because I agree with him. I honestly don't know what the best tactics are in the Middle East or elsewhere, and I agree we should elect people we trust to hire well versed experts to guide them. However, even in that, there are experts who argue very different positions on this.
Although the American electorate is currently acting pretty darned stupid (imo) I hesitate to leave everything to the adults who THINK they know what's best for us. An enlightened, benevolent despot is still a despot.

 

[Slade3200]

A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still.
There is a reason we have these truisms. The idea is that somehow if we talk about it, we can come to some magical solution.

But we can't. If you think the solution is socialism and government regulations and controls, and I think the solution is free-markets, and capitalism..... You and me, talking about it, will never yield a solution. Never.

Red or Green. You want red. I want green. There is no middle ground. Either I get what I want, and you don't. Or you do, and I don't. Or neither of us gets anything we want.

There is no "universal solution", where if we just talk about it, we'll magically find this color that is both red, and green, at the exact same time.

So my view is not that we can talk it out. I think that's possible. Even if you hammer someone with clear proven facts, it goes right back to the first line... a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

The only thing you can do, is to defeat the other side, by out numbering them. You do this by finding the few people who don't have their opinion made up, or are in fact open to alternative views, and convincing them. As for the rest, just ignore them.

I am not talking about issues we differ on, and neither is this conference about that. The whole point is to come together on issues we all agree upon by large percentages. And there are many! But although the public has a strong majority opinion, the government still ignores us. We have the power to change that.

Your broad statements about socialism versus capitalism is an example of an imperial hammerhead (propaganda) to keep us separated and without power. How do you feel about listeria in your food? That is a better question for us to gang up on.

Even with that question, I wager we completely differ. And saying we all "agree upon" by a majority, doesn't mean it's right.

58% of Americans support raising the minimum wage, and doing it year over year. Greece has that exact policy, and it tanked their entire country.

That's my whole point right here. The majority..... is ignorant. What you think we all agree on, is usually false. Just because 51% or more of the population agrees on it, doesn't mean it's right. Truth isn't determined by majority rule.

And the difference between Socialism and Capitalism, is not by any stretch imperial hammerhead, or propaganda. It is a fundamental world view that believes the best results come from people having the freedom to choose, or from some regulations and controls from ignorant law makers in Washington.

If being separated, and not having power, prevents you from screwing up my life... I"m for it. Even on listeria.

I actually agree with you on one point about the fact that the majority is ignorant and uninformed. National Defense issues are best left in the hands of the people that are actually in the know. Economic issues are open to debate but it is so complex and we have so many jerk offs throwing out false claims like Greeces fall was do to their minimum wage policy, which is complete BS and a much more complicated thing than a single issue like that... It takes a lifetime of education and experience to truly understand the scope and effects of economic policy and we don't need a bunch of blowholes deciding our direction based on simplistic single issue viewpoints. As for social policy, I believe the will of the majority is a significant factor in determining how we move forward.

And there you go proving my entire point. It's more than just being ignorant. It's about willfully choosing, and refusing, to except facts. Or even to debate the issue with an open mind.

The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies: Bryan Caplan: 9780691138732: Amazon.com: Books

This book, called Myth of the Rational Voter, is exactly what I'm talking about. Voters have never been rational. When you have a system of majority rule, you inherently have a rule of crazy. That's why nearly all democracies have ended in revolution and chaos.

Institutions vs. Policies: A Tale of Two Islands

This paper, tale of two islands, talks about Jamaica compared to Barbados. The people of Jamaica overwhelmingly supported the left-wing reforms that Michael Manley put in place in the 1970s. But those reforms pushed out jobs, and people started immigrating to the US.

Yet, when they immigrated, they ended up voting ideologically the same way they did in Jamaica, even though it ruined Jamaica.

Interestingly, economist Peter Blair Henry's family was native to Jamaica, and his father supported the protectionist policies Manley enacted. But it was exactly those policies that eliminated Henry's father's job, which is how Henry and his family ended up in the US.

Which brings me back to you, and this claim "Economic issues are open to debate but it is so complex and we have so many jerk offs throwing out false claims like Greeces fall was do to their minimum wage policy, which is complete BS and a much more complicated thing than a single issue like that"

Was your response based on facts, or opinion?

Was mine?

Have you compared the minimum wage rates in Greece, to the unemployment rates?

In 2004, the minimum wage in Greece, was 600 Euros a month. By 2012 it was almost 900 a month.

In 2004, the unemployment rate was 10% and falling. By 2012 it was 27%.

Not good enough for you? What happened in 2013? Do you know? They cut the minimum wage by 1/4th. From almost 900 Euros, to under 700. Want to know what else happened in 2013? 2013 to 2014 was the first year the unemployment rate reversed course, and started to fall.

How does that matter? What baring does that have on the government, and debt, and deficits, and defaulting?

You know that Germany is the leading economy in the EU, right? Before the common currency of the Euro, the 3rd largest reserve currency in the world, was the Deutsche Mark. That's how powerful the German economy was, and up until 2015, Germany never had a minimum wage. Now they do.

Minimum wage fuels Germany's underground economy | Business | DW.COM | 03.02.2015

Experts warn of a resurgence in Germany's underground economy after years of contraction. A new study shows that the introduction of a nationwide minimum wage is driving more workers into the shadows.​

What a shock. Employers not willing to pay the minimum wage, drive workers into the shadow economy. Where unreported, undocumented workers, collect UNTAXED pay checks. Which ironically, they are usually taking home more money, even though they are paid less wages.

What's this got to do with Greece?

http://www.economist.com/news/finan...ks-pay-more-tax-not-just-hard-risky-treasures

66% of the workers in Greece are in the shadow economy, not paying taxes. Obviously high tax rates also drive workers into the shadow economy alone. But as I've already pointed out, the unemployment rate fell the moment they cut the minimum wage. So just like Germany, the minimum wage pushes workers underground, and kills tax revenue... which is obviously what ruined Greece.

It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that Greece collasped when they enacted high tax, and high minimum wages, which caused fewer than 1 in 3 workers to pay taxes on their wages.

But back to you. Without considering any of this, you dismissed everything as BS.

That.... is exactly what I've been talking about. The idea that more democracy, and voters, even educated or not, is somehow going to have a good result... not likely.

This it the kind of thoughtful substance post that I like to see on this forum. I must applaud the effort. We have had our share of disagreements and squabbles, but I appreciate you taking it up a notch. right now, I don't agree with your claim about the minimum wages effect in Greece however I haven't considered it as a catalyst to a chain reaction of other events so I'll look at your numbers and put some thought into it before responding.