Orthodox Jews and Zionism

[Ropey]

Yep, anti...establishment of one side.

 

[MHunterB]

Palestinians ARE raising their children to be doctors etc etc - the point is made by reading the post he is responding to

That'd be on me.

And well, yeah, on the one hand they teach their kids to become doctors, and on the other hand they teach them to become suicide bombers.

So what gives

That's kind of like saying Israeli parents teach their children to join the IDF in order to kill Pali's.

Not exactly: IMO, Lipush is noting the apparent inconsistency of Palestinian 'national' priorities and goals. I think that's a perfectly normal situation, that all individuals within an ethnic group are not necessarily in agreement.

Look at the US: we have some people willing to go to war for Israel's sake - and some wishing to make war upon Israel, even willing to abrogate the civil rights of fellow Americans and violate the Constitution to do so.

 

[irosie91]

Palestinians ARE raising their children to be doctors etc etc - the point is made by reading the post he is responding to

That'd be on me.

And well, yeah, on the one hand they teach their kids to become doctors, and on the other hand they teach them to become suicide bombers.

So what gives

That's kind of like saying Israeli parents teach their children to join the IDF in order to kill Pali's.

active service in the military is the same as ADULATING young men and women who tie bombs to
their bodies for the purpose of killing civilians? I served in the US military---no one mentioned
suicide belts or the glory of murdering infants using them. Generally---the HEROES were the people
who SAVED their mates. My whole job centered on SAVING people-----not killing them.

 

[Coyote]

International law
Treaty of Lausanne
League of Nations
British Mandate

Really, Mr. Tinmore. So the British officials stationed in the area were lying when they reported back to England that the Arabs were arriving in droves from their poor surrounding countries for jobs that the Jews had for them. I don't know where you settled yourself, Mr. Tinmore, but Americans are capable of seeing the change in their own populations from city to city. Are you trying to tell us that we are having delusions and really are not seeing many different groups moving into our cities from places all around the world? We do not even have to be any government official as the English were to be aware of what is going on.

They were. The immigration statistics show that to be a bunch of hooey.

Propoganda hooey...

There is a pretty good historical analysis of population/immigration trends in this article, MidEast Web - Population of Palestine which draws the following conclusions to combat the talking point rhetoric.

"The major conclusion is "The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times""

It makes the following conclusion and points:

The population figures for mandatory and Turkish Palestine are of historical interest and figure in many historical debates. The Zionist claim that Palestine was "a land without a people" is challenged by pro-Palestinian historians who cite census figures showing a substantial Palestinian-Arab population by 1914. The Zionists note that most of this increase seems to have occurred after 1880, when Jews began developing Palestine. In particular, Joan Peters ("From Time Immemorial") claimed that a large proportion of the population increase among Arabs was due to immigration. Pro-Palestinian historians try to make a case that Zionist settlement had begun displacing Palestinians before 1948.

The goal of the present is to examine the claims in the light of the best available statistical data, without supporting the contentions of either side, and without any intention either to denigrate from the tragedy of Palestinian refugees or to use the data to question Jewish claims to Palestine. The moral claims of the sides should not depend on percentages of population. In practice, I am aware that the data on this page have been used to support various partisan claims. That is precisely the sort of abuse that this material is intended to fight. The major conclusion is "The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times" Anyone who pretends otherwise is deliberately misleading you. We can reach some general conclusions - Palestine was not empty when Zionists started arriving, there was some Arab immigration as well etc. But we cannot give a precise number in any case, and even if we could, it would not constitute evidence to back any moral claims.

Economics and Immigration - Under the British Mandate, which began after WWI, Jewish population increased due to immigration, especially in the 1930s. Arab population also increased at an exceptional rate. According to records, about 18,000 non-Jews entered Palestine between 1930 and 1939 when there were more or less reliable figures. In the same period, about 5,000 non-Jews left. This does not count illegal immigration of course, or immigration prior to 1930. Economic analyses show that by the 1930s the standard of living of Palestinian Arabs was approximately twice that of Arabs in surrounding countries, whereas in Ottoman Turkish times it was lower than in surrounding countries. Some of the farm population may have suffered economic hardship, characteristic of any industrializing and urbanizing society, but in the main, the standard of living improved, and it improved much faster than it did in surrounding countries. There is no doubt that this improvement in conditions was an attractant for immigrants as well as resulting in improved health and larger families. Additionally, British activity in building the port of Haifa during the 1920s and in operating it during WW II undoubtedly attracted at least some immigrants. However, there is no hard evidence that more than 100,000 or 200,000 (out of about 1.3 million in all of Palestine, and about 7-800,000 in the area that was to become Israel in 1948) Palestinians had immigrated to the land that was to become Israel. It is impossible to determine at present when this immigration took place. 100,000 Arabs immigrating in 1880 would have produced many more descendants by 1948 than 100,000 Arabs immigrating in 1930. However, since economic conditions did not improve until mandatory times, it is unlikely that the bulk of the immigration occurred under Turkish administration.

Joan Peters, in her book "From Time Immemorial," argues that most of the increase in Arab population was in fact due to illegal Arab immigration. Her figures are not accepted by most demographers and historians, including Zionists. Norman Finkelstein and others have criticized her thesis and shown evidence of poor scholarship. Finkelstein's analysis also shows that the largest increases of Palestinian Arab population occurred close to Jewish population centers in Palestine, which would argue against the Palestinian contention that the Zionists were dispossessing Arabs. We do not know if this increase was due to population shifts in Palestine or immigration from outside Palestine. It is certain that there was at least some illegal Palestinian-Arab immigration, as noted in British mandatory reports. Immigration from Transjordan was not illegal, and was not recorded as immigration at all until 1938. Beginning in the 1920s when they built Haifa port, and especially during and just prior to World War II, the British recruited Arab workers from the Houran in Syria and elsewhere. Arabs also came to Palestine before the war, attracted by higher wages. However, since much of the depletion of Palestinian population that had occurred in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries was due to migration to neighboring countries, many of these returning Arabs may have been families returning to Palestine.

I think this is the best analysis I've seen of population shifts and doesn't rely on subjective claims of American authors traveling abroad talking about an empty land

 

[Coyote]

That'd be on me.

And well, yeah, on the one hand they teach their kids to become doctors, and on the other hand they teach them to become suicide bombers.

So what gives

That's kind of like saying Israeli parents teach their children to join the IDF in order to kill Pali's.

active service in the military is the same as ADULATING young men and women who tie bombs to
their bodies for the purpose of killing civilians? I served in the US military---no one mentioned
suicide belts or the glory of murdering infants using them. Generally---the HEROES were the people
who SAVED their mates. My whole job centered on SAVING people-----not killing them.

Depends on what you taught as to the reason you choose to go into the military or any kind of law enforcement.

Israeli children can be and have been taught to hate Palestinians and regard them as "less than".

 

[Coyote]

That'd be on me.

And well, yeah, on the one hand they teach their kids to become doctors, and on the other hand they teach them to become suicide bombers.

So what gives

That's kind of like saying Israeli parents teach their children to join the IDF in order to kill Pali's.

In order to kill those who are trying to kill them.

You know who, Coyote.

They're your Pali's.

Did you bring your Goebells 101 check off list to check one side and pretend there's only one side?

The Jews hide their children away in times of war. In order to try and protect them.

Your "Pali's"

You know. The ones who are not on Billo's Goebbels 101 list.

Hamas uses photo of dead child from Syria to wage Twitter propaganda war against Israel; Update: More bogus injuries

Hamas uses photo of dead child from Syria to wage Twitter propaganda war against Israel; Update: More bogus injuries | Twitchy

Depends Ropey, on what a person is taught.

If a person is taught that it's a duty and postive moral obligation to take up arms in defense of their country or in legitimate resistance, that can produce one outcome.

If a person is taught that the opponent is "less than", a barbaric subhuman animal, that needs to be pushed out or wiped out, it produces another outcome.

There is, of course, a lot of propaganda.

 

[irosie91]

That's kind of like saying Israeli parents teach their children to join the IDF in order to kill Pali's.

active service in the military is the same as ADULATING young men and women who tie bombs to
their bodies for the purpose of killing civilians? I served in the US military---no one mentioned
suicide belts or the glory of murdering infants using them. Generally---the HEROES were the people
who SAVED their mates. My whole job centered on SAVING people-----not killing them.

Depends on what you taught as to the reason you choose to go into the military or any kind of law enforcement.

Israeli children can be and have been taught to hate Palestinians and regard them as "less than".

There is no question that some Israeli children are exposed to hatred of arabs. ----generally at home
and to some extent by other people in their environment. As a child---early on---I was exposed to
hatred of Nazis by my own mother who recounted the history of family members murdered by them.
My friends on the playground hated "japs"-----sometimes related to stories told them by their
fathers who served in world war II

some southern kids-----hate "Yankees" Your comment does not seem anything but trite to me.
With all that hate going on way back then in the post world war II era and at the dawn of the
civil rights era-----no one seemed to be presented with the concept that a way to GLORY is
"SLIT THE THROATS OF THEIR INFANTS" Such glorious heroes as WAFA IDRIS famous
for tying a bomb to her ass motivated by a desire to murder jewish infants has been honored by
having at least three girls' school named in her honor----in memory of that one great accomplishment
of her life. The girls in those schools see her portrait on the walls in the same manner that
girls in catholic schools in the US----see images of Mary (mother of jesus) ---a kind of
object of worship

 

[Ropey]

That's kind of like saying Israeli parents teach their children to join the IDF in order to kill Pali's.

In order to kill those who are trying to kill them.

You know who, Coyote.

They're your Pali's.

Did you bring your Goebells 101 check off list to check one side and pretend there's only one side?

The Jews hide their children away in times of war. In order to try and protect them.

Your "Pali's"

You know. The ones who are not on Billo's Goebbels 101 list.

Hamas uses photo of dead child from Syria to wage Twitter propaganda war against Israel; Update: More bogus injuries

Hamas uses photo of dead child from Syria to wage Twitter propaganda war against Israel; Update: More bogus injuries | Twitchy

Depends Ropey, on what a person is taught.

If a person is taught that it's a duty and postive moral obligation to take up arms in defense of their country or in legitimate resistance, that can produce one outcome.

If a person is taught that the opponent is "less than", a barbaric subhuman animal, that needs to be pushed out or wiped out, it produces another outcome.

There is, of course, a lot of propaganda.

So, you've been taught Goebbels 101 from Billo. That's just more apologist bullshit Coyote.

Israel has shown they can make and keep peace agreements.

The Palestinans have shown they can make and beak Hudnas and then continue the fight.

Tactical Hudna and Islamist Intolerance :: Middle East Quarterly

But you're too busy looking only at one side.

It applies to a lot of what you seem to do and think about others.

 

[Coyote]

In order to kill those who are trying to kill them.

You know who, Coyote.

They're your Pali's.

Did you bring your Goebells 101 check off list to check one side and pretend there's only one side?

The Jews hide their children away in times of war. In order to try and protect them.

Your "Pali's"

You know. The ones who are not on Billo's Goebbels 101 list.



Hamas uses photo of dead child from Syria to wage Twitter propaganda war against Israel; Update: More bogus injuries | Twitchy

Depends Ropey, on what a person is taught.

If a person is taught that it's a duty and postive moral obligation to take up arms in defense of their country or in legitimate resistance, that can produce one outcome.

If a person is taught that the opponent is "less than", a barbaric subhuman animal, that needs to be pushed out or wiped out, it produces another outcome.

There is, of course, a lot of propaganda.

So, you've been taught Goebbels 101 from Billo. That's just more apologist bullshit Coyote.

Israel has shown they can make and keep peace agreements.

The Palestinans have shown they can make and beak Hudnas and then continue the fight.

Tactical Hudna and Islamist Intolerance :: Middle East Quarterly

But you're too busy looking only at one side.

It applies to a lot of what you seem to do and think about others.

I don't think it's me looking only at one side here...

I'm also not commenting on one group or the other as a entirety.

What I'm saying is that individuals join military for different reasons and those reasons can often come back to what they are taught.

Are you trying to say that Israeli children are never taught to hate Palistinians or to regard them as subhuman? Or that all Palestinian children are taught to aspire to incendiary splats?

 

[Ropey]

Depends Ropey, on what a person is taught.

If a person is taught that it's a duty and postive moral obligation to take up arms in defense of their country or in legitimate resistance, that can produce one outcome.

If a person is taught that the opponent is "less than", a barbaric subhuman animal, that needs to be pushed out or wiped out, it produces another outcome.

There is, of course, a lot of propaganda.

So, you've been taught Goebbels 101 from Billo. That's just more apologist bullshit Coyote.

Israel has shown they can make and keep peace agreements.

The Palestinans have shown they can make and beak Hudnas and then continue the fight.

Tactical Hudna and Islamist Intolerance :: Middle East Quarterly

But you're too busy looking only at one side.

It applies to a lot of what you seem to do and think about others.

I don't think it's me looking only at one side here...

I'm also not commenting on one group or the other as a entirety.

What I'm saying is that individuals join military for different reasons and those reasons can often come back to what they are taught.

Are you trying to say that Israeli children are never taught to hate Palistinians or to regard them as subhuman? Or that all Palestinian children are taught to aspire to incendiary splats?

I'm trying to say that Israel knows how to make and keep a peace with those who want to make and keep a peace.

Subhuman?

Untermensch?

Der Untermensch
"The subhuman"

Der Untermensch www.HolocaustResearchProject.org


Billo's Goebells 101 again.

You know that one. The one you thanked?

 

[Coyote]

So, you've been taught Goebbels 101 from Billo. That's just more apologist bullshit Coyote.

Israel has shown they can make and keep peace agreements.

The Palestinans have shown they can make and beak Hudnas and then continue the fight.

Tactical Hudna and Islamist Intolerance :: Middle East Quarterly

But you're too busy looking only at one side.

It applies to a lot of what you seem to do and think about others.

I don't think it's me looking only at one side here...

I'm also not commenting on one group or the other as a entirety.

What I'm saying is that individuals join military for different reasons and those reasons can often come back to what they are taught.

Are you trying to say that Israeli children are never taught to hate Palistinians or to regard them as subhuman? Or that all Palestinian children are taught to aspire to incendiary splats?

I'm trying to say that Israel knows how to make and keep a peace with those who want to make and keep a peace.

Subhuman?

Untermensch?

Der Untermensch www.HolocaustResearchProject.org


Billo's Goebells 101 again.

You know that one. The one you thanked?

Your point Ropey?

 

[Ropey]

I don't think it's me looking only at one side here...

I'm also not commenting on one group or the other as a entirety.

What I'm saying is that individuals join military for different reasons and those reasons can often come back to what they are taught.

Are you trying to say that Israeli children are never taught to hate Palistinians or to regard them as subhuman? Or that all Palestinian children are taught to aspire to incendiary splats?

I'm trying to say that Israel knows how to make and keep a peace with those who want to make and keep a peace.

Subhuman?

Untermensch?

Der Untermensch www.HolocaustResearchProject.org

Billo's Goebells 101 again.

You know that one. The one you thanked?

Your point Ropey?

That you play an apologist and use minimization with attempted moral equivalencies to pretend that both sides are doing the same things.

 

[Ropey]

And the tag at the bottom of this thread is also telling.

 

[Coyote]

I'm trying to say that Israel knows how to make and keep a peace with those who want to make and keep a peace.

Subhuman?

Untermensch?

Der Untermensch www.HolocaustResearchProject.org

Billo's Goebells 101 again.

You know that one. The one you thanked?

Your point Ropey?

That you play an apologist and use minimization with attempted moral equivalencies to pretend that both sides are doing the same things.

That game no longer works Ropey. I say what I say and mean it. If you insist on reading more into it, that is your choice.

I outlines why I thanked Billo's post and I see no need to reverse that.

You are insistent that thanking a post means only one thing: agrrement in entirety. Yet look at your own record here:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/9332472-post116.html
"fellow Islamo Nazi's"

You really think that poster is even remotely a "Nazi"? Do you really think that Muslims even approach the cold-blooded atrocities of Nazi Germany? Or maybe you thank it because you agree with the over all sentiment...or part of the post...or you find the poster's wit funny.

Hate rhetoric leads to hate actions - if tolerated and encouraged, it's the beginning of worse things. When it's culturally accepted, then it's far easier for people to turn the other way.

That's the point Billo made that I am thanking and that I agree with.

 

[Ropey]

Your point Ropey?

That you play an apologist and use minimization with attempted moral equivalencies to pretend that both sides are doing the same things.

That game no longer works Ropey. I say what I say and mean it. If you insist on reading more into it, that is your choice.

I outlines why I thanked Billo's post and I see no need to reverse that.

You are insistent that thanking a post means only one thing: agrrement in entirety. Yet look at your own record here:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/9332472-post116.html
"fellow Islamo Nazi's"

You really think that poster is even remotely a "Nazi"? Do you really think that Muslims even approach the cold-blooded atrocities of Nazi Germany? Or maybe you thank it because you agree with the over all sentiment...or part of the post...or you find the poster's wit funny.

Hate rhetoric leads to hate actions - if tolerated and encouraged, it's the beginning of worse things. When it's culturally accepted, then it's far easier for people to turn the other way.

That's the point Billo made that I am thanking and that I agree with.

I hear you.

You took what you wanted from his Geobbels 101 list.

Then you pretended that only part of it was what you thanked. (that's an apologist method)

Then you use terms like Subhuman. (This is something else and it applies directly to Goebbels and Billo's 1001 list that you thanked, but meant only part of it.)

Meh

I Grok U.

 

[Coyote]

That you play an apologist and use minimization with attempted moral equivalencies to pretend that both sides are doing the same things.

That game no longer works Ropey. I say what I say and mean it. If you insist on reading more into it, that is your choice.

I outlines why I thanked Billo's post and I see no need to reverse that.

You are insistent that thanking a post means only one thing: agrrement in entirety. Yet look at your own record here:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/9332472-post116.html
"fellow Islamo Nazi's"

You really think that poster is even remotely a "Nazi"? Do you really think that Muslims even approach the cold-blooded atrocities of Nazi Germany? Or maybe you thank it because you agree with the over all sentiment...or part of the post...or you find the poster's wit funny.

Hate rhetoric leads to hate actions - if tolerated and encouraged, it's the beginning of worse things. When it's culturally accepted, then it's far easier for people to turn the other way.

That's the point Billo made that I am thanking and that I agree with.

I hear you.

You took what you wanted from his Geobbels 101 list.

Then you pretended that only part of it was what you thanked. (that's an apologist method)

Then you use terms like Subhuman. (This is something else and it applies directly to Goebbels and Billo's 1001 list that you thanked, but meant only part of it.)

Meh

I Grok U.

Is that what you pretended?

 

[Ropey]

That game no longer works Ropey. I say what I say and mean it. If you insist on reading more into it, that is your choice.

I outlines why I thanked Billo's post and I see no need to reverse that.

You are insistent that thanking a post means only one thing: agrrement in entirety. Yet look at your own record here:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/9332472-post116.html
"fellow Islamo Nazi's"

You really think that poster is even remotely a "Nazi"? Do you really think that Muslims even approach the cold-blooded atrocities of Nazi Germany? Or maybe you thank it because you agree with the over all sentiment...or part of the post...or you find the poster's wit funny.

Hate rhetoric leads to hate actions - if tolerated and encouraged, it's the beginning of worse things. When it's culturally accepted, then it's far easier for people to turn the other way.

That's the point Billo made that I am thanking and that I agree with.

I hear you.

You took what you wanted from his Geobbels 101 list.

Then you pretended that only part of it was what you thanked. (that's an apologist method)

Then you use terms like Subhuman. (This is something else and it applies directly to Goebbels and Billo's 1001 list that you thanked, but meant only part of it.)

Meh

I Grok U.

Is that what you pretended?

No need to.

 

[irosie91]

Your point Ropey?

That you play an apologist and use minimization with attempted moral equivalencies to pretend that both sides are doing the same things.

That game no longer works Ropey. I say what I say and mean it. If you insist on reading more into it, that is your choice.

I outlines why I thanked Billo's post and I see no need to reverse that.

You are insistent that thanking a post means only one thing: agrrement in entirety. Yet look at your own record here:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/9332472-post116.html
"fellow Islamo Nazi's"

You really think that poster is even remotely a "Nazi"? Do you really think that Muslims even approach the cold-blooded atrocities of Nazi Germany? Or maybe you thank it because you agree with the over all sentiment...or part of the post...or you find the poster's wit funny.

Hate rhetoric leads to hate actions - if tolerated and encouraged, it's the beginning of worse things. When it's culturally accepted, then it's far easier for people to turn the other way.

That's the point Billo made that I am thanking and that I agree with.

I will cast my vote on

"Do you really think that Muslims even approach the cold-blooded atrocities of Nazi Germany"?

yes----I came into contact with lots of muslims circa 1970---during the time millions of biafrans were
murdered by starvation siege-----and a bit later attended the death bed of an elderly woman who
was the single member of her extended family in Armenia ----circa 1915---who survived
the genocide over there. -------around that time----we also saw the carnage in east Pakistan---
and Nigeria--------Very recently I came into contact with some survivors from BANGLADESH.
To be overly polite---I will not get into hubby's family legacy

regarding the Bangladeshis (who are muslims) I did a horrible faux pas----
I referred to their homeland as "Pakistan" they all but SCREAMED

I do not consider the Nazis of Germany all that UNIQUE ----now--for the record---most
germans never killed anyone and would not have supported that which went on
in Auschwitz -------does that help? MOST GERMANS as for turks ---
ask Ellia Kazan (spelling?) or Daniel Pipes

 

[Coyote]

We'll have to disagree on that Rosie - I don't think there is ANY modern equivalent to either Hitler or the Nazi's in either scale or reach.

I'll repeat what I said before. Between 1941-1945, a space of just 4 years - somewhere around 11 million Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, communists, 7th Day Adventists, homosexuals, mentally and physically disabled and others were methodically murdered in what is without question the largest and most thoroughly documented genocide of the 20th century. Of those 11 million, one million were children.

Out of approsimately nine million Jews who in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.

In 4 years, under an ideology that believed in racial superiority, sought to bring eugenics to it's ultimate conclusion, conducted horrid experiments on children, callously murdered millions of people because they were of the wrong race, religion or "inferior"....two thirds of the Jewish population in Europe were killed amongst many others.

Not comparable Rosie.

 

[Coyote]

I do not consider the Nazis of Germany all that UNIQUE ----now--for the record---most
germans never killed anyone and would not have supported that which went on
in Auschwitz -------does that help? MOST GERMANS as for turks ---
ask Ellia Kazan (spelling?) or Daniel Pipes

You don't think so?

They supported the underlying rhetoric of racial inferiority of some and of eugenics enough to look the other way at evidence of the mass dissaperance of people. Enough to support the rounding up and labeling of Jews. Not all supported it, that's for sure - but without some degree of popular support and peer pressure from those supporters, Hitler could not have done what he did.