Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Meriweather]

Anyways, Im sure you disagree with the Catholic Church back then when they objected to the greeks leaving because you claim god accepts Greek Orthodox into heaven too so clearly it’s ok to leave the Catholic Church and join any of the other denominations. Any one will do. You Catholics have no advantage do you?

Do you mean when it comes to heaven? Nope, we do not see ourselves as having the advantage. Do people held to a higher standard get an advantage, or do they just shoulder more responsibility?

Do you recall that major reason for the split was that the Latin words made no sense when translated word for word into Greek? The Latin was clearly inferior! Besides, Constantinople was a beautiful new city, not an old dump like Rome that once persecuted Christians, and where some Popes disliked it so much they went to France. As was the split with Protestants, politics played a great role. Separation of Church and State does have its advantages.

 

[Meriweather]

So you can only tell me about the one or two Catholic Churches you are familiar with and the however many priests you’ve worshipped under. Not all catholic priests get up every sunday and say the exact same thing do they?

I've moved around a lot, so not only have I been to Mass in more than a half-dozen states, I've attended Mass in different parts of several of those states. The States have been in the West, the East, the Mid-West, and the South. Priests do not say the exact same thing, but 99.9 percent of the time they are talking about the readings of the day. That other .1 is parish budget, Catholic Appeal, or Missionary. In my entire life, I think I've only heard three homilies on hell.

 

[buttercup]

You do realize that all the other Christian denominations think Catholicism is the worst right? There are even threads about it. Have you participated in those threads and seen what other Christians think of Catholics? It's not good.

They are usually funny, though, at least to some of us Catholics. Good for a chuckle because it immediately clear that they have no understanding of the teaching--although they are convinced theirs in the perfect understanding.

Such discussions (as we can see even in this one) it is comparable to someone who thinks they understand the rules of football insist the points are recorded by the number of pMorins knocked down when the Frisbee goes through the hoop. Usually easier to bypass such a discussion because it takes too much time and effort to explain the entire game of football to someone with such a mindset.

Unfortunately there are entire churches, some mega churches, and they teach that catholicism is not the way.

of course they are competing for members so of course that’s what they’re going to say.

Born agains for example have told me I’m not saved because I was baptized as a child. i have to do it as an adult on my own. I think Catholics are baptized as babies too right? So what do you say to them?

I'm just curious to know why you're asking that. Is that you genuinely want to know which idea is actually correct, or are you bringing up these differences for some other reason?

Any true doctrine should be backed up biblically. Not by one verse in an unclear way, but backed up clearly by numerous scriptures and the overall message of the bible.

Infant baptism is blatantly unbiblical. Jesus Himself was baptized as a grown man, but it's not so much age that is the issue, but understanding what one is doing (which obviously babies or young children cannot) and Jesus is always our example.

Neither is right. Being baptized in the Christian Church is pointless if you are an atheist. but I want to know what you would say to a born again who says you have to be baptized again.

This btw is how born agains recruit new members from the Catholic and Greek Orthodox faith. They tell us our church has it all wrong.

I couldn’t be baptized right now because I don’t believe so I would be lying to the congregation when he asked do you renounce Satan? I’d have to say honestly I don’t believe in Satan or god. I would have to lie. I don’t think god will punish me for that. He should have written a more convincing book.

Obviously it's pointless (and wrong) if one doesn't believe. Did anyone argue otherwise?

Baptism is a beautiful thing, when it's done the way it's meant to be done. I grew up in the Catholic church and got baptized as a baby, but that meant nothing. It was just a religious ritual. Obviously when I was a baby I didn't understand what was going on, and even when I got a little older and had my "first communion" and all that stuff, none of it was meaningful to me because I wasn't a believer at that time, I was just there because my mom made me go.

But then many years later, when I actually became a believer, for the first time in my life, I never went back to Catholicism, but I did get baptized, about 4 years after coming to Christ, in a pool in Hawaii, during my DTS through YWAM in Kona.

So you agree with born agains? Are Catholics baptized as babies or adults? News to me if you guys do it twice. And I thought you did it to your bandaids. Archie took meatheads baby to a Catholic Church to get baptism didn’t he?

Yes, I'm a born-again Christian. Here is my baptism, near the beginning of this video.

meriweather and I were only baptized as babies. What will happen to us?

Salvation is not about baptism. I don't where you got the idea that it was. We are saved by grace, through FAITH. When you have a true, saving faith, you become a new creation, literally "born from above"... in other words, it's like a second birth. The first one is physical, the second one is spiritual. I can't explain it, but it's a very real thing. It's almost like your DNA changes.

But getting back to baptism, that it just an outward symbol of something that already took place inside. It is something we do to show the world that we made the decision to put our faith in Jesus and follow Him. So of course it must be done when a person is old enough to understand it all. But the act of water baptism itself does not save anyone. The thief on the cross did not get water baptized, but he was clearly saved. Jesus said so Himself, when He said, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Is that more clear now?

 

[Meriweather]

You know what I like about the Jewish faith? Tell a Jew you want to become a Jew and see what he or she tells you. They’re supposed to try to talk you out of it. They don’t want new members.

They try to talk people out of it for good reason. First and foremost, do you know how many times people who say they are thinking of converting actually mean they are there to convert Jews to Christianity? Second, people are more than welcome to attend Jewish services without converting to Judaism (God-fearers or Noachides). Over the course of years, a person has to ask at least three times to become a Jew and have demonstrated more than a passing interest. Jews also know how difficult it may be for Christians or former Christians to totally let go of Jesus.

All this being said, prayer and worship at a Synagogue have been beautiful experiences and a deep worship of God.

 

[Grumblenuts]

A study published in 2014 by The Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture at Indiana University and Purdue University found that Americans read versions of the Bible as follows:[17][18]:12–15

1. King James Version (55%)
2. New International Version (19%)
3. New Revised Standard Version (7%)
4. New American Bible (6%)
5. The Living Bible (5%)
6. All other translations (8%)

Main: <-- A list of examples reveals just how shot through the KJ Bible truly is with serious contradiction.

Conclusion
What is incredible about the Bible is not its divine authorship; it’s that such a concoction of contradictory nonsense could be believed by anyone to have been written by an omniscient god. To do so, one would first have to not read the book, which is the practice of most Christians; or, if one does read it, dump in the trash can one’s rational intelligence — to become a fool for god, in other words.

To be an atheist, one need only be able to laugh when such obvious nonsense is offered as being “divine” truth.

Quick Test:

• Who reads "the Bible"? Not most Christians(Catholics).
• Who most believes it "to have been written by an omniscient god"? Christians(Catholics).

For best mental health, remember:

• Please don't read the Bible.
• To protect loved ones from accidental exposure, immediately dump any found laying around directly into the nearest trash can.
• Become an atheist so you'll best be able to just laugh when such obvious nonsense is offered as being “divine” truth.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

 

[buttercup]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

In your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees. Not that truth is determined by the majority, it isn't. But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck. Those who don't see it have a form of blindness. I understand it because I've been there myself. But it's so much more than that, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth. That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I don't think anyone here is arguing for absolute determinism, "universal event causation," or against at least some free will.

Maybe changing the subject slightly, but yes, i will argue that free will -- as we have come to describe it -- is an illusion. Our brains are deterministic physical systems, just like all physical systems.

 

[Grumblenuts]

My opinion? Thanks, Captain Obvious.

But most people intuitively know that life, the physical world, everything that exists didn't come about by dumb luck.

Can you say complete non sequitur to anything mentioned in my post? I knew you could

Atheism has numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved. Why? Because it's simply not the truth.

Okay, let's go! I'll gladly show you mine if you s..
Wait, what now???

That said, no amount of discussing this or debating is going to make the difference in causing someone to believe. Apologetics can break down certain obstacles or misunderstandings that people have. But ultimately it's not what causes anyone to come to faith.

Ah, c'mon you little chicken
Who cares about "causing someone to believe" or "come to faith." Name these alleged "numerous problems, logical errors, which can never be resolved." How "it's simply not the truth." Or kindly fuck off with your baseless accusations and assertions.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I don't think anyone here is arguing for absolute determinism, "universal event causation," or against at least some free will.

Maybe changing the subject slightly, but yes, i will argue that free will -- as we have come to describe it -- is an illusion. Our brains are deterministic physical systems, just like all physical systems.

Elaborate please. "Deterministic" as in the definition of determinism I supplied earlier or are you alluding to something entirely different? I hated philosophy in college. How have we "come to describe" free will?

 

[Meriweather]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving."

Everyone needs to be aware that religion means different things to different people. For some of us it is the awe that comes from exploring the spiritual realm. That some believed that Columbus would fall off the edge of the world did not stop Columbus from sailing--he held a different belief. In the same way, some of us are pioneers and explorers of a spiritual realm--despite scoffing from those who believe that going on such an exploration will end in waste and disaster. This exploration has little to do with the afterlife and more to do with how the spiritual and physical realms interact with each other. Some explore how oceans and water interact with land; how objects in space interact with the earth; how air and gases interact with other gases and chemicals.

John Dewey noted, "Every great advance in science has issued from a new audacity of imagination." Despite warnings and naysayers, sailors explored beyond the ocean, astronauts went into space, and explorers not only went into ice lands, forests, deserts, and volcanoes, but also under the sea. It is the same for us who choose to explore beyond the physical world and into the spiritual realm. There is a choice before us: To be a settler or to be a pioneer. There is a need for both, but I chose to be a pioneer, naysayers or no. I have never regretted it.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Requires presumption of "a spiritual world" rendering argument silly for all who don't. Otherwise, to each their own, as repeatedly stated. If you can really manage to convince yourself that you're somehow exploring new horizons on these tired old seas while not hurting anyone, more power to ya. However, Columbus was nothing but a jerk.

 

[Meriweather]

Requires presumption of "a spiritual world"

Or knowledge... However, let's not miss the point which is that there are numerous reasons for people to choose or follow a religion over and above that people of faith are afraid or brainwashed or don't think like you. Major choices in our lives are usually built on at least three reasons--and those three reasons are likely to vary from person to person.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Yeah, covered that.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I don't think anyone here is arguing for absolute determinism, "universal event causation," or against at least some free will.

Maybe changing the subject slightly, but yes, i will argue that free will -- as we have come to describe it -- is an illusion. Our brains are deterministic physical systems, just like all physical systems.

Elaborate please. "Deterministic" as in the definition of determinism I supplied earlier or are you alluding to something entirely different? I hated philosophy in college. How have we "come to describe" free will?

Determinism isnt just about everything having a cause. In a deterministic universe with natural laws, the same cause produces the same effect. Every time.
We have come to think of free will as being "agents" of our choices. This is tied right to belief on souls.

This is not correct.

In reality, your choices are made even before you are aware they are made.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Okay, my instinct tells me it's a mixture of both and highly dependent on the particular circumstances. However, if you have experimental confirmation that our "choices are made even before' we're "aware they are made" I'm all ears..

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Okay, my instinct tells me it's a mixture of both and highly dependent on the particular circumstances. However, if you have experimental confirmation that our "choices are made even before' we're "aware they are made" I'm all ears..

A combination? Of determinism and...magic? How exactly would you wish into existence bioelectrical potential? How would you wish into existence the movement of a chemical? You cannot.

A discussion of some of the empirical evidence:

Brain makes decisions before you even know it : Nature News

Nature - the world's best science and medicine on your desktop

www.nature.com

.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

I believed everything my parents taught me growing up and going to church on there being a god and a devil and heaven and hell.well there is a heaven and hell just not the way most Americans and the world has been conditioned to think.

Heaven is when everything is going great for you and you have overcome your worst problems in life and don’t have a care in the world,hell is being depressed and feeling like there is no hope for you in the future so you feel like committing suicide,been down that road before,was no fun at all,took years to get out of that unhappy hell. Or have such horrible health problems and are in pain all the time e you wish you were dead and want to commit suicide,have been down that painful hell road before as well,no fun at all.

however now that I am not under the influence of my parents anymore since they have been gone for over3 decades now and have had the chance to look into several different religions the last 3 decades,i now know there is no higher power and there is no devil.people become evil because they were born into evil with evil parents who to them,another life means nothing to them, murdering someone to them means the same as stepping on an ant to us,another life means nothing at all to them somehow,I will never be able to understand a criminal mind how murder is an okay thing for them. Seems like if you don’t have that mindset,sadly you can’t become a politician.

as I got into my 20,s it became crystal clear to me the world is too fucked up for there to be a god.we all want to cling on to the belief that he will somehow sweep in and get rid of the corruption in the world and make it the kind of place to enjoy to live in but that’s just not going to happen.evil will always exist and it will never go away.

why anybody would want to bring a kid into a fucked up world like this one where we have thousands of murders around the world everyday, I will never fucking understand the human race. I can always look myself in the mirror knowing I never brought anyone into this world of hell,how any of you parents who have children can look at yourselves without being sickened by that ,that you forced them to look at this helll we live on is disgusting to me.
.

 

[BreezeWood]

Please seriously consider the fact that what generally happens to people who end up "studying", believing, and spreading such crap as opposed to those who don't is so far nothing of great note. It can be logically presumed that atheists end up having more time to pursue other things, but getting distracted by such petty differences misses the huge, single, obvious conclusion. We clearly need fear no significant result from choosing to ignore / outright reject the entire load of bullshit. Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning. No different than Dubya's insistent, repeated claims of Iraq hiding "weapons of mass destruction." Fear, fear, fear. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Check here for a great analysis of atheist ethics..

Plenty of time has passed to evaluate the truth of every stupid, beaten to death religious claim, whether it be carrot or stick. Turns out we're really just animals. No life beyond death period. No special place to go, either upward or down. No pearly gates. No final judgement. No angels coming. No "Saving." It's all just been divisive, manipulative crap from the very beginning.

.
physiology has with it a spiritual content - Fauna is only half the story, including Flora as all members of the physiological world all things are possible for those who's spirits are still alive. seemingly you left out a spirit for yourself per your denials.

only your last sentence is relevant, disinformation has ruled the day since surly the ending of the 1st century that must change for even the deadheads to reawaken for the positive pursuits life has to offer.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Okay, my instinct tells me it's a mixture of both and highly dependent on the particular circumstances. However, if you have experimental confirmation that our "choices are made even before' we're "aware they are made" I'm all ears..

A combination? Of determinism and...magic? How exactly would you wish into existence bioelectrical potential? How would you wish into existence the movement of a chemical? You cannot.

A discussion of some of the empirical evidence:

Brain makes decisions before you even know it : Nature News

Nature - the world's best science and medicine on your desktop

www.nature.com

.

Thanks! Their conclusion:

Part of the problem is defining what we mean by ‘free will’. But results such as these might help us settle on a definition.

..just as I would have guessed. And.. shockingly... no mention of "magic"!