Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[sealybobo]

Atheism is denying there are any gods

Not always. Look up the definition. Mere lack of belief in gods qualifies.

Can you really have a lack of belief in something that exists?

Can you have a lack of belief that 2/3 of the earth's surface is covered in water?

Or a lack of belief that the earth has a moon?

I'm putting faith in the numbers science gives me that says the earth is 2/3rds water. I haven't actually verified that for myself but I'll take their word for it. And if someone came up with good scentific evidence that this number is wrong, I'd be open minded to it.

People don''t deny the moon but they can see it. What about flat earthers? They deny the earth is round.

God is debatable so you can have a lack of belief in god. God isn't a scientific fact in fact he's not even a scientific theory. More of a hypothesis. But too many people believe god is a fact because their ancient holy books say he visited and that I don't believe. Not even 1% of me believes the Jesus Mohammad Joseph Smith or Moses myths.

 

[Blues Man]

Atheism is denying there are any gods

Not always. Look up the definition. Mere lack of belief in gods qualifies.

Can you really have a lack of belief in something that exists?

Can you have a lack of belief that 2/3 of the earth's surface is covered in water?

Or a lack of belief that the earth has a moon?

I'm putting faith in the numbers science gives me that says the earth is 2/3rds water. I haven't actually verified that for myself but I'll take their word for it. And if someone came up with good scentific evidence that this number is wrong, I'd be open minded to it.

People don''t deny the moon but they can see it. What about flat earthers? They deny the earth is round.

God is debatable so you can have a lack of belief in god. God isn't a scientific fact in fact he's not even a scientific theory. More of a hypothesis. But too many people believe god is a fact because their ancient holy books say he visited and that I don't believe. Not even 1% of me believes the Jesus Mohammad Joseph Smith or Moses myths.

Flat earthers are morons and cannot prove their assertions so they might as well be compared to the people who believe that gods exist

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The arguments are based on facts.

No. Many of the premises are dubious at best.

And even if they weren't, they are still jist philosophical arguments. This isnt going to convince an evidence based thinker to accept such an extraordinary idea. Just as you would not accept the existence of apollo, or shiva, when someone uses similar arguments.

You really need to think about that last statement. It will help you understand what you are up against.

 

[sealybobo]

Consider the facts, they may lead you to theism.

Those aren't facts. Those are philosophical arguments. They aren't compelling to evidence-based thinkers to accept such an extraordinary idea.

The arguments are based on facts. If you want to refute said arguments please be specific.

You were too vague for us to call you out. You said the facts may lead us to theism. What are those facts?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I'm putting faith in the numbers science gives me that says the earth is 2/3rds water.

No you aren't. You are putting trust in them, based on evidence.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm putting faith in the numbers science gives me that says the earth is 2/3rds water.

No you aren't. You are putting trust in them, based on evidence.

Actually, in my case I'm using faith because I really haven't studied all the evidence. But I know the scientific community has and if there were any serious doubts I'm sure they would have been pier reviewed and thuroughly debated.

 

[Blues Man]

I'm putting faith in the numbers science gives me that says the earth is 2/3rds water.

No you aren't. You are putting trust in them, based on evidence.

Actually, in my case I'm using faith because I really haven't studied all the evidence. But I know the scientific community has and if there were any serious doubts I'm sure they would have been pier reviewed and thuroughly debated.

Google

How Much Water is There on Earth? | U.S. Geological Survey

The Earth is a watery place. But just how much water exists on, in, and above our planet? Read on to find out.

www.usgs.gov

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Actually, in my case I'm using faith because I really haven't studied all the evidence.

Not so. The evidence does not come just in the form of the empirical evidence for this specific bit of knowledge, but also in the successes of science overall and the process that you understand is required for virtually every scientist across avery field of science --- who generally spend their days trying to prove each other wrong -- to come to agreement on something.

 

[Thunderbird]

The arguments are based on facts.

No. Many of the premises are dubious at best.

And even if they weren't, they are still jist philosophical arguments. This isnt going to convince an evidence based thinker to accept such an extraordinary idea. Just as you would not accept the existence of apollo, or shiva, when someone uses similar arguments.

You really need to think about that last statement. It will help you understand what you are up against.

Many cultures have come to an understanding of God - Native Americans, ancient Greeks, etc.

Hymn to Zeus - Wikisource, the free online library

en.m.wikisource.org

I’ll give you another chance to refute the various arguments I’ve linked to. Please be specific.

Are you saying you only accept arguments based on objective reality?

 

[Thunderbird]

Consider the facts, they may lead you to theism.

Those aren't facts. Those are philosophical arguments. They aren't compelling to evidence-based thinkers to accept such an extraordinary idea.

The arguments are based on facts. If you want to refute said arguments please be specific.

You were too vague for us to call you out. You said the facts may lead us to theism. What are those facts?

Check out the websites I linked to.

 

[zaangalewa]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

Sure you can. Atheism strictly means not accepting a belief in any gods. Agnostic atheism is also not knowing if gods exist or not (which is actually most atheists). Gnostic atheists "know" gods don't exist.

Atheism is denying there are any gods

Christians too are "denying" that there are any gods. Better to say: Christians don't believe in gods or polytheism - we are monotheists, we believe in god.

Agnosticism leaves the possibility of the existence of gods

What's not really correct. Agnosticism is not a belief or a religion or an alternative in such a direction - it is also not a statement of probability; it is a philosophy, which finds out the existence of god is not provable, so no one is able to know whether god exists or not exists.

but will not state there are any gods without more proof or that there are gods but people can never really know them

If one admits to gods existing then says he is an atheist he is contradicting himself

Someone, who follows the philosophy "agnosticism" is able to believe in god or able to believe in atheism. What such a philosopher not is able to believe is "god exists and not exists the same time". The reason is not that god is not able to exist and not to exist the same time - god is allmighty. The reason is that we are not able to think this philosophically, because this is a contradiction. It hurts our rationality to do so.

Good point. Does an agnostic say they have CONCLUDED that god is unknowable or are they undecided?

Both is not the point. It is just simple impossible to say whether god exists or not exists. Both is a question of belief and trust and not a question of knowledge.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Many cultures have come an understanding of God - Native Americans, ancient Greeks, etc.

So what? Many cultures also came to the understanding that human sacrifice was effective.

I’ll give you another chance to refute the various arguments I’ve linked to

Don't waste your time. It is not incumbent upon anyone to refute them. It would be incumbent upon you to demonstrate the truth of all the premises, using the preponderance of evidence, then to do the same with the arguments' conclusions.

 

[zaangalewa]

Does an agnostic say they have CONCLUDED that god is unknowable or are they undecided?

It could be either. Agnosticism simply means, "not knowing".

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
Albert Einstein

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
Albert Einstein

I would have to say not having a magical sky daddy is simpler than having one. There is no need to replace mysteries with even more complicated mysteries.

 

[Thunderbird]

Many cultures have come an understanding of God - Native Americans, ancient Greeks, etc.

So what? Many cultures also came to the understanding that human sacrifice was effective.

I’ll give you another chance to refute the various arguments I’ve linked to

Don't waste your time. It is not incumbent upon anyone to refute them. It would be incumbent upon you to demonstrate the truth of all the premises, using the preponderance of evidence, then to do the same with the arguments' conclusions.

Certainly atheist cultures have embraced mass murder.

Stalin killed millions. A Stanford historian answers the question, was it genocide?

Historian Norman Naimark argues that today's narrow definition of genocide is Stalin's lasting legacy.

news.stanford.edu

I am sure you are capable of reading the arguments presented in the websites. If you don’t feel up to the task of refuting any of them that’s fine.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Certainly atheist cultures have embraced mass murder.

Some problems with your red herring:

1) This doesn't lend support to any of your claims
2) Stalinism was its own religion. You are mistaken to say stalinists were atheists. Stalin was a god like figure, and presented himself as such. His mass murder was in the name of religion: Stalinism.

Just as North Korea is the most religious state in the world. The Kim family are the gods.

 

[zaangalewa]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

This is one of the best posts on religion I've ever seen!

The big questions: Who am I? Why an I here? How did I get here? Is there more to life than arguing politics at USMB?

I come to usmb because I enjoy it. I haven’t been on as much because I have a boat and it’s summertime. Plus sales are down because of corona so I don’t fuck around during the day like I did when things were good.

I truly love you guys even you conservatives. God bless you if he exists.

I grew up Roman Catholic, but I find I read Chabad almost daily. I appreciate their sense of community, brotherhood and love of fellow man.

Enjoy your journey Sealy, it's yours to discover

My girlfriend calls herself a Scientologist.

Scientology is nothing else than a criminal organisation. Scientology has absolutelly nothing to do with religion. Your girlfriend has a damned dangerous problem now.

When she came from Belarus her new mail order step dad sent her to some classes. She can’t explain the religion to me but whatever she learned in those classes she liked. Of course she’s not a real member like her rich step father. He’s like a level 5. Tom cruise is like a 12. She’s probably level 1

She's not involved enough to be in any danger.

Scientology is a criminal organisation - nothing else.

Her mom is going to take everything this step father has when he dies so they just tell him what he wants to hear. Or, maybe he is going to leave it all to the church??? I could see him pulling that move on them.

Same could be said for a lot of Christian churches in America. It's fleecing and lying to people and telling them god requires 10% of their pay.

Scientology is a criminal organisation - nothing else.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Scientology is a criminal organisation - nothing else.

Wrong. It is also a religion.

 

[zaangalewa]

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
Albert Einstein

I would have to say not having a magical sky daddy

end of discussion for me

is simpler than having one. There is no need to replace mysteries with even more complicated mysteries.

 

[BreezeWood]

Athiest.

The first thing I will ask god when I see him is which religion was right. I think his answer will be none of them.

In fact this is what god told Joseph Smith in 1800. Told him to start a new one. True story.

The first thing I will ask god when I see him (them) is which religion was right.

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perhaps, the one prescribed during antiquity for admission to the Everlasting - the triumph of good vs evil - for those that might attempt the challenge. from the beginning.

Perhaps? Do you know or are you guessing?

Perhaps? Do you know or are you guessing?

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that is built in the physiology ...

View attachment 343880

try transforming from one being to another, bobo - but you never listen at least you are not a desert reject.

the rejects believe - mutation, is that a word in your vocabulary.

Great image. Besides mutation which implies natural selection, it strongly evokes evolution.. at least for me. {turning into a} Insect? Fish? Bird?

Great image. Besides mutation which implies natural selection, it strongly evokes evolution.. at least for me. {turning into a} Insect? Fish? Bird?

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the change is guided by the spiritual content of the physiology making the change not a mutation - the difference between atheism and metaphysical theism.
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I have always maintained religion is the same as the evolutionary ability to make changes and that the changes themselves may vary but where the process is preordained and must follow the metaphysical guidelines or the individual will fail in their pursuit.

- evil is an inadmissible trait the metaphysical will not tolerate.