Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Blues Man]

Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.

Taken as a proper noun that may or may not serve. As I read it, Gnosticism was an early form of Christianity. Entirely different in its normal adjective form though. It just means to know or claim affirmative knowledge of something as opposed to one making no such claims / being agnostic. One claiming to be an "agnostic atheist" is therefore just your run of the mill atheist.

How you defined the term "Atheist - There is no god" fits one claiming to be a "gnostic atheist." Beats me how one can make an affirmative knowledge claim while simultaneously claiming lack of belief in gods? Such self-proclaimed "gnostic atheists" are clearly confused and self-contradictory at best. But there apparently being no more suitable term available, I suppose "gnostic atheist" must continue to serve for the purpose.

"Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more." - An agnostic is really just an atheist who's confused or too chicken to admit it. Everyone claims to be "open to know more." That's just feel good BS tacked on to distract from the falsely implied dichotomy. Just as there are those claiming to be "gnostic"- and "agnostic atheists," some claim to be "gnostic"- and "agnostic agnostics." Wait? Whaa?

Yep. There may be a god or gods. Don't claim to know. Lack any such knowledge. That's an atheist. That's also an agnostic. Dunno. Pretend I'm from Missouri and show me some scientific evidence.. then perhaps I'll know something other than myriad miraculous stories and theories that annoy my critical thinking skills no end.

I did not define those terms they were in the link

 

[Grumblenuts]

Didn't see any link, but wrong in any case.

Some groups will use words like Agnostic, Humanist, Secular, Bright, Freethinker, or any number of other terms to self identify. Those words are perfectly fine as a self-identifier, but we strongly advocate using the word that people understand: Atheist. Don’t use those other terms to disguise your atheism or to shy away from a word that some think has a negative connotation. We should be using the terminology that is most accurate and that answers the question that is actually being asked. We should use the term that binds all of us together.

 

[Blues Man]

Wrong again.

I would rather use the dictionary

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Definition of ATHEISM

a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods; a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods; godlessness especially in conduct : ungodliness, wickedness… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Blues Man]

Didn't see any link, but wrong in any case.

Some groups will use words like Agnostic, Humanist, Secular, Bright, Freethinker, or any number of other terms to self identify. Those words are perfectly fine as a self-identifier, but we strongly advocate using the word that people understand: Atheist. Don’t use those other terms to disguise your atheism or to shy away from a word that some think has a negative connotation. We should be using the terminology that is most accurate and that answers the question that is actually being asked. We should use the term that binds all of us together.

An atheist will never state that there is a god.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The Webster's one agrees with me. Dictionary.com is simply out of date as my link explains.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Didn't see any link, but wrong in any case.

Some groups will use words like Agnostic, Humanist, Secular, Bright, Freethinker, or any number of other terms to self identify. Those words are perfectly fine as a self-identifier, but we strongly advocate using the word that people understand: Atheist. Don’t use those other terms to disguise your atheism or to shy away from a word that some think has a negative connotation. We should be using the terminology that is most accurate and that answers the question that is actually being asked. We should use the term that binds all of us together.

An atheist will never state that there is a god.

And?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Most interesting discussion on these subjects I’ve ever seen on USMB. Thanks to all for honestly, and thoughtfully, sharing.

 

[sealybobo]

I don’t think you are a real Christian

Do tell me. What is a Christian? And what does a "real" Christian believe that I do not?

That's just it. Who knows. I know that Evangelicals and Born Against don't think very highly of Catholicism. I'm sure you've seen the treads.

I notice your new pope said something to the effect that non Christians might go to heaven. That was new and nice to hear that the church and it's leaders have changed their position on this in recent years. I've heard MANY preachers, priests, ministers of the Christian faith say non Christians don't get into heaven. MANY. Some say we go to hell some cherry pick and say we just don't go to heaven. Our soul dies like we think it does. No one knows. No holy book is real. So what is a real Christian? There are too many different kinds to say.

 

[sealybobo]

As far as religion being a way they control the masses, take for example what Baptist’s taught to their slaves. The lord said to cope with your horrible lives. Cope. Not change. They told the slaves to just wait till they see the pearly gates in heaven. Baptist taught them dying was the only solution.

Is that teaching lasting throughout eternity or even all the days of mankind?

Well I do think that they use religion to control us still so yes, in a way this is still happening. Baptists teach dying is the only solution.

Remember this Arrestive Development song?

They're praising a God that watches you weep
And doesn't want you to do a damn thing about it
When they want change the preacher says "shout it"
Does shouting bring about change ? I doubt it
All shouting does is make you lose your voice
So on the dock I sit in silence
Staring at a sea that's full of violence
Scared to put my line in that water
Coz it seems like there's no religion in there
Naively so I give it another go
Sitting in church hearing legitimate woes
Pastor tells the lady it'll be alright
Just pray so you can see the pearly gates so white
The lady prays and prays and prays and prays
And prays and prays and prays and prays it's everlasting
"There's nothing wrong with praying ?" It's what she's asking
She's asking the Lord to let her cope
So one day she can see the golden ropes
What you pray for God will give
To be able to cope in this world we live
The word "cope" and the word "change"
Is directly opposite, not the same
She should have been praying to change her woes
But pastor said "Pray to cope with those"
The government is happy with most baptist churches
Coz they don't do a damn thing to try to nurture
Brothers and sisters on a revolution
Baptist teaches dying is the only solution
Passiveness causes others to pass us by
I throw my line till I've made my decision
Until then, I'm still fishin' 4 religion

 

[sealybobo]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

This is one of the best posts on religion I've ever seen!

The big questions: Who am I? Why an I here? How did I get here? Is there more to life than arguing politics at USMB?

I come to usmb because I enjoy it. I haven’t been on as much because I have a boat and it’s summertime. Plus sales are down because of corona so I don’t fuck around during the day like I did when things were good.

I truly love you guys even you conservatives. God bless you if he exists.

I grew up Roman Catholic, but I find I read Chabad almost daily. I appreciate their sense of community, brotherhood and love of fellow man.

Enjoy your journey Sealy, it's yours to discover

My girlfriend calls herself a Scientologist.

Scientology is nothing else than a criminal organisation. Scientology has absolutelly nothing to do with religion. Your girlfriend has a damned dangerous problem now.

When she came from Belarus her new mail order step dad sent her to some classes. She can’t explain the religion to me but whatever she learned in those classes she liked. Of course she’s not a real member like her rich step father. He’s like a level 5. Tom cruise is like a 12. She’s probably level 1

She's not involved enough to be in any danger. Her mom is going to take everything this step father has when he dies so they just tell him what he wants to hear. Or, maybe he is going to leave it all to the church??? I could see him pulling that move on them.

 

[sealybobo]

Athiest.

The first thing I will ask god when I see him is which religion was right. I think his answer will be none of them.

In fact this is what god told Joseph Smith in 1800. Told him to start a new one. True story.

The first thing I will ask god when I see him (them) is which religion was right.

.
perhaps, the one prescribed during antiquity for admission to the Everlasting - the triumph of good vs evil - for those that might attempt the challenge. from the beginning.

Perhaps? Do you know or are you guessing?

 

[sealybobo]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

Good post, thanks for being honest. I'll share my 2 cents, if that's OK. I think one of the problems is that many people are led astray by false or empty religion, which, unfortunately, ends up keeping them away from God. There are also people who had a negative experience with false or empty religion, and they end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak, by becoming atheists. That's basically what happened to me, I was a nonbeliever for many years, due to my experience with mere religion, as opposed to God. Years later, to my complete surprise, I became a born again believer (Christian) and that's a long story how it happened, but it had nothing to do with a church or even any person.

In the New Testament it's clear that Jesus had the highest criticism for those who were "religious" but didn't have God, people who were more focused on man-made traditions and false religious ideas.

So to sum that up: God/truth > religion.

But there is the other extreme, which I think should also be avoided, and that is to disbelieve ALL religion, in favor of a sort of vague belief in a higher power or impersonal "force." That reminds me of what C.S Lewis said about this topic. Here is an excerpt. (I added the bold.)

​

In a way I quite understand why some people are put off by Theology. I remember once when I had been giving a talk to the RA.F., an old, hardbitten officer got up and said, "I've no use for all that stuff. But, mind you, I'm a religious man too. I know there's a God. I've felt Him: out alone in the desert at night: the tremendous mystery. And that's just why I don't believe all your neat little dogmas and formulas about Him. To anyone who's met the real thing they all seem so petty and pedantic and unreal!"​

​

Now in a sense I quite agreed with that man. I think he had probably had a real experience of God in the desert. And when he turned from that experience to the Christian creeds, I think he really was turning from something real to something less real. In the same way, if a man has once looked at the Atlantic from the beach, and then goes and looks at a map of the Atlantic, he also will be turning from something real to something less real: turning from real waves to a bit of coloured paper. But here comes the point. The map is admittedly only coloured paper, but there are two things you have to remember about it. In the first place, it is based on what hundreds and thousands of people have found out by sailing the real Atlantic. In that way it has behind it masses of experience just as real as the one you could have from the beach; only, while yours would be a single isolated glimpse, the map fits all those different experiences together. In the second place, if you want to go anywhere, the map is absolutely necessary. As long as you are content with walks on the beach, your own glimpses are far more fun than looking at a map. But the map is going to be more use than walks on the beach if you want to get to America.​

​

Now, Theology is like the map. Merely learning and thinking about the Christian doctrines, if you stop there, is less real and less exciting than the sort of thing my friend got in the desert. Doctrines are not God: they are only a kind of map. But that map is based on the experience of hundreds of people who really were in touch with God— experiences compared with which any thrills or pious feelings you and I are likely to get on our own are very elementary and very confused. And secondly, if you want to get any further, you must use the map. You see, what happened to that man in the desert may have been real, and was certainly exciting, but nothing comes of it. It leads nowhere. There is nothing to do about it. In fact, that is just why a vague religion, all about feeling God in nature, and so on is so attractive. It is all thrills and no work; like watching the waves from the beach. But you will not get to Newfoundland by studying the Atlantic that way, and you will not get eternal life by simply feeling the presence of God in flowers or music. Neither will you get anywhere by looking at maps without going to sea. Nor will you be very safe if you go to sea without a map.​

There's more to be said, but I don't want this to be too long so I'll leave it at that for now.

So you belong to the church who's members walk up to people and ask, "do you know where you are going when you die?" That's what I know about born agains. Wasn't that church started in America? When did born agains come to be?

 

[zaangalewa]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

Sure you can. Atheism strictly means not accepting a belief in any gods. Agnostic atheism is also not knowing if gods exist or not (which is actually most atheists). Gnostic atheists "know" gods don't exist.

Atheism is denying there are any gods

Christians too are "denying" that there are any gods. Better to say: Christians don't believe in gods or polytheism - we are monotheists, we believe in god.

Agnosticism leaves the possibility of the existence of gods

What's not really correct. Agnosticism is not a belief or a religion or an alternative in such a direction - it is also not a statement of probability; it is a philosophy, which finds out the existence of god is not provable, so no one is able to know whether god exists or not exists.

but will not state there are any gods without more proof or that there are gods but people can never really know them

If one admits to gods existing then says he is an atheist he is contradicting himself

Someone, who follows the philosophy "agnosticism" is able to believe in god or able to believe in atheism. What such a philosopher not is able to believe is "god exists and not exists the same time". The reason is not that god is not able to exist and not to exist the same time - god is allmighty. The reason is that we are not able to think this philosophically, because this is a contradiction. It hurts our rationality to do so.

 

[sealybobo]

Most interesting discussion on these subjects I’ve ever seen on USMB. Thanks to all for honestly, and thoughtfully, sharing.

I appreciate that. I started this thread yesterday after some theist on another thread said we weren't keeping an open mind.

 

[Thunderbird]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

Seems silly to know that you can’t know. Lol

Looking at the universe, God’s existence is obvious.

Seeing God and His Beauty in Math

Dr. Wilson has been thinking long and hard about how the mathematical structure of the world points towards God's existence and beauty. in this interview, he explains how his understanding of math drives him to worship God more deeply and how math should motivate Christians to care about doing...

www.biola.edu

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

sealybobo —
Your OP was great and brought out good people to discuss. My suggestion would be to ignore any later arrivals who may try to degrade the discussion. : )

 

[zaangalewa]

Most interesting discussion on these subjects I’ve ever seen on USMB. Thanks to all for honestly, and thoughtfully, sharing.

I appreciate that. I started this thread yesterday after some theist on another thread said we weren't keeping an open mind.

I fear they are right. I said to you here "bye bye" the moment you closed your mind. If you are an agnostics then you ignore the other side.

 

[anynameyouwish]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

Apathetic - someone who doesn't give a shit about it

 

[BreezeWood]

Athiest.

The first thing I will ask god when I see him is which religion was right. I think his answer will be none of them.

In fact this is what god told Joseph Smith in 1800. Told him to start a new one. True story.

The first thing I will ask god when I see him (them) is which religion was right.

.
perhaps, the one prescribed during antiquity for admission to the Everlasting - the triumph of good vs evil - for those that might attempt the challenge. from the beginning.

Perhaps? Do you know or are you guessing?

Perhaps? Do you know or are you guessing?

.
that is built in the physiology ...

try transforming from one being to another, bobo - but you never listen at least you are not a desert reject.

the rejects believe - mutation, is that a word in your vocabulary.

 

[zaangalewa]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real. I like debating with theists who agree religions are man made up. I agree the universe and this planet are amazing. And it seems like it’s too perfect and there has to be some higher power. But we know so little still. Maybe there are other universes? Maybe there was is or will be life around every star eventually. Maybe not as advance as us but maybe more. And maybe the spirit lives on forever after you die. Just seems like wishful thinking to me. But I hope so. These are unknowable things.

So far I see no evidence of god and I don’t believe one exists. Everything can be explained scientifically. What can’t, may never be known. Those gaps aren’t god.

This is one of the best posts on religion I've ever seen!

The big questions: Who am I? Why an I here? How did I get here? Is there more to life than arguing politics at USMB?

I come to usmb because I enjoy it. I haven’t been on as much because I have a boat and it’s summertime. Plus sales are down because of corona so I don’t fuck around during the day like I did when things were good.

I truly love you guys even you conservatives. God bless you if he exists.

I grew up Roman Catholic, but I find I read Chabad almost daily. I appreciate their sense of community, brotherhood and love of fellow man.

Enjoy your journey Sealy, it's yours to discover

My girlfriend calls herself a Scientologist.

Scientology is nothing else than a criminal organisation. Scientology has absolutelly nothing to do with religion. Your girlfriend has a damned dangerous problem now.

When she came from Belarus her new mail order step dad sent her to some classes. She can’t explain the religion to me but whatever she learned in those classes she liked. Of course she’s not a real member like her rich step father. He’s like a level 5. Tom cruise is like a 12. She’s probably level 1

She's not involved enough to be in any danger.

Scientology is a criminal organisation - nothing else.

Her mom is going to take everything this step father has when he dies so they just tell him what he wants to hear. Or, maybe he is going to leave it all to the church??? I could see him pulling that move on them.