Once again, Venezuela "Feeling the Bern" of socialism

[georgephillip]

Funny how socialism ALWAYS fails.... no exception... and yet it's ALWAYS someone else's fault.

Have you heard of Mondragon?
Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The Mondragon Corporation is acorporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. It was founded in the town ofMondragón in 1956 by graduates of a local technical college. Its first product was paraffin heaters. It is the tenth-largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the end of 2014, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and organizations in four areas of activity: finance, industry, retail and knowledge.[2]"
Perhaps your ignorance of US History is legitimate.
If so, you are missing all the Big Questions.

 

[bripat9643]

• Hot off the BBC press.... it's just amazing. No matter how badly socialism destroys an entire nation, we here in the US still have people defending socialist ideas.

Socialist ideas in Venezuela today are "failing" for the same reason socialism "failed" in Chile forty years ago:

Chile and the United States: Declassified Documents Relating to the Military Coup, September 11, 1973

"Revelations that President Richard Nixon had ordered the CIA to 'make the economy scream' in Chile to 'prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him,' prompted a major scandal in the mid-1970s, and a major investigation by the U.S. Senate."

Still pumping out that Communist propaganda, I see. No one can explain what the CIA supposedly did to "make the economy scream." That's because it did nothing. Allende did all by himself.

I doubt you have the slightest interest in learning how the CIA made Chile's economy scream forty years ago, but perhaps I'm wrong?

Chile and the United States: Declassified Documents Relating to the Military Coup, September 11, 1973

"These documents include:

• Cables written by U.S. Ambassador Edward Korry after Allende's election, detailing conversations with President Eduardo Frei on how to block the president-elect from being inaugurated. The cables contain detailed descriptions and opinions on the various political forces in Chile, including the Chilean military, the Christian Democrat Party, and the U.S. business community.

Allende was inaugurated. The point is moot.​

CIA memoranda and reports on 'Project FUBELT'--the code name for covert operations to promote a military coup and undermine Allende's government. The documents, including minutes of meetings between Henry Kissinger and CIA officials, CIA cables to its Santiago station, and summaries of covert action in 1970, provide a clear paper trail to the decisions and operations against Allende's government

The CIA wasn't involved in the coup. It was instigated by the Chillean Supreme Court, the Chillean Parlaiment and the Chillean army. THe CIA played no part in it whatsoever. You can't list any actual covert actions because there were none. The CIA did nothing. It played no part.

National Security Council strategy papers which record efforts to 'destabilize' Chile economically, and isolate Allende's government diplomatically, between 1970 and 1973.

What "efforts?" What did the CIA NSC actually do? Isolating countries diplomatically is a common diplomatic practic.

State Department and NSC memoranda and cables after the coup, providing evidence of human rights atrocities under the new military regime led by General Pinochet.

Shooting people waging civil war against the government is not a human rights atrocity" except in the eyes of Communist traitors.

​

FBI documents on Operation Condor--the state-sponsored terrorism of the Chilean secret police, DINA.

They were fighting a civil war against communist traitors. That's what commies like you call "state sponsored terrorism." The American Civil War was a valid example of state sponsored terrorism, but all you commies defend that to the last man.

"The documents, including summaries of prison letters written by DINA agent Michael Townley, provide evidence on the car bombing assassination of Orlando Letelier and Ronni Moffitt in Washington D.C., and the murder of Chilean General Carlos Prats and his wife in Buenos Aires, among other operations.

​

"These documents, and many thousands of other CIA, NSC, and Defense Department records that are still classified secret, remain relevant to ongoing human rights investigations in Chile, Spain and other countries, and unresolved acts of international terrorism conducted by the Chilean secret police.

"Eventually, international pressure, and concerted use of the U.S. laws on declassification will force more of the still-buried record into the public domain--providing evidence for future judicial, and historical accountability."

Commie propaganda.

 

[georgephillip]

The CIA wasn't involved in the coup. It was instigated by the Chillean Supreme Court, the Chillean Parlaiment and the Chillean army. THe CIA played no part in it whatsoever. You can't list any actual covert actions because there were none. The CIA did nothing. It played no part.

Really?
Your fear of authority is scaring me.
Chile and the United States: Declassified Documents Relating to the Military Coup, September 11, 1973
"The CIA prepared a summary of its efforts to prevent Allende's ratification as president and to foment a coup in Chile-- track I and track II covert operations.

"The summary details the composition of the Task Force, headed by David Atlee Phillips, the team of covert operatives 'inserted individually into Chile,' and their contacts with Col. Paul Winert, the U.S. Army Attache detailed to the CIA for this operation.

"It reviews the propaganda operations designed to push Chilean president Eduardo Frei to support 'a military coup which would prevent Allende from taking office on 3 November.'"

 

[JimBowie1958]

Yeah, and they are no where even close to being socialist. Not even close. Some are more capitalist than we are.

They are 'democratic socialists' and fall into the category of 'planned economy'.....

I.E. they prefer to live in a garden instead of a jungle.

 

[Andylusion]

Funny how socialism ALWAYS fails.... no exception... and yet it's ALWAYS someone else's fault.

Have you heard of Mondragon?
Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The Mondragon Corporation is acorporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. It was founded in the town ofMondragón in 1956 by graduates of a local technical college. Its first product was paraffin heaters. It is the tenth-largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the end of 2014, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and organizations in four areas of activity: finance, industry, retail and knowledge.[2]"
Perhaps your ignorance of US History is legitimate.
If so, you are missing all the Big Questions.

Mondragon S. COOP.: CEO and Executives - Businessweek

Javier Sotil... CEO of Mondragon. Total CEO compensation, $22.1 Million.

https://www.glassdoor.ie/Salary/Eroski-Salaries-E13233.htm

Salary of retail store workers for Mondragon's Eroski stores... $19,000 a year... which is roughly $9 an hour.

People at Walmart are averaging more than that.

Moreover....

Mondragon: Spain's giant co-operative where times are hard but few go bust

The co-operatives have repeatedly cut wages, in order to avoid laying off people.

The US Unions prevented that with GM and Chrysler, which is exactly why they bankrupted, and ended up laying off a ton of people.

What's my point in all this?

Mondragon is nothing special. It's another International Capitalist, multi-billion dollar corporation. They cut pay, open stores, and sell things, just like any other capitalist company.

I worked for a company where the Owner and CEO, decided to put all employees into a stock purchase program, and called it a "Co-Operative". Not one thing changed. The CEO was still the CEO. The executive pay was still the executive pay. The Employees still were employees, and still paid employee pay.

But since we technically owned the stock of the company, magically we were an employee owned co-op.

http://www.economist.com/news/busin...s-largest-group-co-operatives-trouble-workers

Moreover, even Mondragon itself, doesn't show as much about socialism, as it does Capitalism.

When the Fagor co-op fell into trouble, they went the workers co-ops of Mondragon and asked for help. The other groups CHOOSE to get money to the Fagor co-op. That's not socialism. That's Capitalism.

I'm a Capitalist. I CHOOSE to give money to charity groups, and other ideals that I believe in.

And when Fagor came back again and said they needed more money, the other workers co-ops, said "no".

That right there... is the essence of free-market capitalism. They owned their own money, and when they choose to give it away, they did, and when they choose to keep it, they kept it.

Socialism is like Medicaid. If I choose to not give money to medicaid, I still end up giving money to medicaid, because if I refuse men with guns show up and force me to.

You people on the left, try and make a big deal out of co-ops, as if that means something. Co-Ops are not even close to real socialism. Co-Ops are just regular capitalist based business, where they feign employee ownership.

In the extremely few examples of businesses with real employee ownership.... it's nothing.

I remember a decade ago, when people pointed to Mondragon the book store in Winnipeg, as a brilliant example of successful true employee ownership.

Mondragon closing doors for good this month

Never mind the fact it was less than half a dozen employees, and never mind they all made little to no money.... but they closed anyway.

So much for the workers paradise of unemployment.

 

[Andylusion]

Yeah, and they are no where even close to being socialist. Not even close. Some are more capitalist than we are.

They are 'democratic socialists' and fall into the category of 'planned economy'.....

I.E. they prefer to live in a garden instead of a jungle.

They are absolutely nothing like socialists at all... in any way.... period. There is not one socialist aspect to any of them.

They have a few social programs, just like we have social programs. But they are not one inch more socialist than we are socialist. They are as much a capitalist based economy and country, as we are.

The top 1% of Swedish wealthy, own 35% to 40% of all Swedish wealth. Not that much different than the US.

2/3rd of wealthy Swedes inherited their wealth. The exact opposite of the US, where 2/3rd or more, earned their wealth.

Sweden has lots of wealth inequality - Marginal REVOLUTION

Social mobility is more of a joke. And many of the wealthy in Sweden, have their wealth outside the country, and thus are not calculated.

The super rich, live as super rich in Sweden, just as much as they do here in the US.

In short... this socialist utopian view of the Nordic countries is all a myth. It's not true. They are capitalist, just as much as the US.

 

[Andylusion]

The CIA wasn't involved in the coup. It was instigated by the Chillean Supreme Court, the Chillean Parlaiment and the Chillean army. THe CIA played no part in it whatsoever. You can't list any actual covert actions because there were none. The CIA did nothing. It played no part.

Really?
Your fear of authority is scaring me.
Chile and the United States: Declassified Documents Relating to the Military Coup, September 11, 1973
"The CIA prepared a summary of its efforts to prevent Allende's ratification as president and to foment a coup in Chile-- track I and track II covert operations.

"The summary details the composition of the Task Force, headed by David Atlee Phillips, the team of covert operatives 'inserted individually into Chile,' and their contacts with Col. Paul Winert, the U.S. Army Attache detailed to the CIA for this operation.

"It reviews the propaganda operations designed to push Chilean president Eduardo Frei to support 'a military coup which would prevent Allende from taking office on 3 November.'"

Again......
The CIA wasn't involved in the coup. It was instigated by the Chillean Supreme Court, the Chillean Parlaiment and the Chillean army. THe CIA played no part in it whatsoever. You can't list any actual covert actions because there were none. The CIA did nothing. It played no part.

 

[tinydancer]

The people are truly suffering in Venezuela I was just checking this out. It's absolutely appalling. I thought President "el blockhead" Chavez was loony tunes but the new President is completely out to lunch.

"In just one day, the newspaper's reporters witnessed the deaths of seven babies since there were no oxygen tanks, and doctors had to pump air into their lungs by hand.

A 68-year-old diabetic patient interviewed in the article has to have her leg amputated; the hospital did not have dialysis machines or the antibiotics she requires.

One had to have an almost-rupturing appendix removed without the proper tools or sanitation. Another died because the blood bank was closed due to a public holiday, which was randomly called by the government to save electricity.

President Nicolas Maduro has refused attempts to seek international or monetary support for the country's healthcare system that he says would effectively 'privatize' healthcare.

The socialist leader, Hugo Chavez's successor, claims such a move would have devastating impacts on the country.

And he even insists Venezuela's healthcare is one of the best in the world: 'I doubt that anywhere in the world, except in Cuba, there exists a better health system than this one,' he said. "

No electricity, no antibiotics, no beds, no soap: A devastating look inside Venezuela's crisis-hit hospitals where 7 babies die a day, bleeding patients lie strewn on the floor, and doctors try to operate without tools

• President Nicolas Maduro claims Venezuela has the best healthcare in the world after Cuba
• But death rates are soaring and hospitals are filthy as supplies run low and electricity is shut off
• The nation is in economic crisis after price of oil - their main monetary reserve - plummeted
• Images taken by the New York Times show patients lying on the floor covered in blood, babies dying

Read more: A devastating look inside Venezuela's crisis-hit hospitals
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Andylusion]

The people are truly suffering in Venezuela I was just checking this out. It's absolutely appalling. I thought President "el blockhead" Chavez was loony tunes but the new President is completely out to lunch.

"In just one day, the newspaper's reporters witnessed the deaths of seven babies since there were no oxygen tanks, and doctors had to pump air into their lungs by hand.

A 68-year-old diabetic patient interviewed in the article has to have her leg amputated; the hospital did not have dialysis machines or the antibiotics she requires.

One had to have an almost-rupturing appendix removed without the proper tools or sanitation. Another died because the blood bank was closed due to a public holiday, which was randomly called by the government to save electricity.

President Nicolas Maduro has refused attempts to seek international or monetary support for the country's healthcare system that he says would effectively 'privatize' healthcare.

The socialist leader, Hugo Chavez's successor, claims such a move would have devastating impacts on the country.

And he even insists Venezuela's healthcare is one of the best in the world: 'I doubt that anywhere in the world, except in Cuba, there exists a better health system than this one,' he said. "

No electricity, no antibiotics, no beds, no soap: A devastating look inside Venezuela's crisis-hit hospitals where 7 babies die a day, bleeding patients lie strewn on the floor, and doctors try to operate without tools

• President Nicolas Maduro claims Venezuela has the best healthcare in the world after Cuba
• But death rates are soaring and hospitals are filthy as supplies run low and electricity is shut off
• The nation is in economic crisis after price of oil - their main monetary reserve - plummeted
• Images taken by the New York Times show patients lying on the floor covered in blood, babies dying

Read more: A devastating look inside Venezuela's crisis-hit hospitals
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Actually I doubt the new president is any worse than Hugo Chavez. I wager all of the crap policies that have been slowly destroying Venezuela from the inside out, finally crashed the system under Maduro. Remember, the Soviets required 70 years to finally rot out their core, and end up starving and cannibalism.

Socialism rarely fails in a day, or even a year. It normally takes decades. The finally death bell for Venezuela, is happening right on time. Lucky for Chavez, he died before the blame could be placed where it is deserved.

It's like Clinton and the Sub-prime mortgage crisis, which all started in 1997, but didn't crash the system until 2008. That's how these things work.

 

[Dovahkiin]

Float the currency Maduro! Then provide money to all citizens to meet their basic needs for a time, while opening up to businesses.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Yeah, and they are no where even close to being socialist. Not even close. Some are more capitalist than we are.

They are 'democratic socialists' and fall into the category of 'planned economy'.....

I.E. they prefer to live in a garden instead of a jungle.

They are absolutely nothing like socialists at all... in any way.... period. There is not one socialist aspect to any of them.

They have a few social programs, just like we have social programs. But they are not one inch more socialist than we are socialist. They are as much a capitalist based economy and country, as we are.

The top 1% of Swedish wealthy, own 35% to 40% of all Swedish wealth. Not that much different than the US.

2/3rd of wealthy Swedes inherited their wealth. The exact opposite of the US, where 2/3rd or more, earned their wealth.

Sweden has lots of wealth inequality - Marginal REVOLUTION

Social mobility is more of a joke. And many of the wealthy in Sweden, have their wealth outside the country, and thus are not calculated.

The super rich, live as super rich in Sweden, just as much as they do here in the US.

In short... this socialist utopian view of the Nordic countries is all a myth. It's not true. They are capitalist, just as much as the US.

Well THEY think that they are socialists, and I agree with them. There is nothing contrary to socialism about having wealthy people, or that they have income inequality. The latter is just a horse shit distraction and will never actually exist.

 

[Norman]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Last night we showed what Caracas, looks like this week:

As we wrote then these are simply hungry Venezuelans protesting that their children are dying from lack of food and medicine and that they do not have enough water or electricity. As AgainstCronyCapitalism added, this is a country with more oil than Saudi Arabia, and the government has stolen all the money and now they bottleneck peaceful protesters and threaten them with bombs (or haul them to prison and torture them). As pure desperation has set in, crime has becomes inevitable. A man accused of mugging people in the streets of Caracas was surrounded by a mob of onlookers, beaten and set on fire, who published a pixeled-out but still graphic video of the man burning as mob justice is now the supreme arbiter of who lives and who dies:

"Roberto Fuentes Bernal, 42, was reportedly caught trying to mug passersby in the Venezuelan capital, and before police arrived at the scene, the crowd took the law into their own hands." The video can be seen here. Now, in the latest shocking development, Venezuela saw a new wave of looting this week that resulted in at least two deaths, countless wounded, and millions of dollars in losses and damages. According to Panampost, on Wednesday morning, a crowd sacked the Maracay Wholesale Market in the central region of Venezuela. According to the testimonies of merchants, the endless food lines that Venezuelans have been enduring to do groceries could not be organized that day.

As time went by, desperate Venezuelans grew anxious over not being able to buy food. Then they started jumping over the gates and stormed the supermarket. "They took milk, pasta, flour, oil, and milk powder. There were 5,000 people" one witness told Venezuela outlet El Estímulo. People from across the entire state came to the supermarket because there were rumors that some products not found anywhere else would be sold there. As a result of the massive crowd, the authorities were unable to preserve the peace. "There were 250 people for each National Guard officer… lots of people and few soldiers. At least one officer was beat up because he tried to stop the crowd,” another source told El Estímulo. Other food dispensaries run by the government were also looted by the people. Far from the promised socialist paradise, as the massive group of people moved, an entrance gate collapsed under the weight of the crowd, leaving several wounded.

MORE

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

 

[shintao]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Last night we showed what Caracas, looks like this week:

As we wrote then these are simply hungry Venezuelans protesting that their children are dying from lack of food and medicine and that they do not have enough water or electricity. As AgainstCronyCapitalism added, this is a country with more oil than Saudi Arabia, and the government has stolen all the money and now they bottleneck peaceful protesters and threaten them with bombs (or haul them to prison and torture them). As pure desperation has set in, crime has becomes inevitable. A man accused of mugging people in the streets of Caracas was surrounded by a mob of onlookers, beaten and set on fire, who published a pixeled-out but still graphic video of the man burning as mob justice is now the supreme arbiter of who lives and who dies:

"Roberto Fuentes Bernal, 42, was reportedly caught trying to mug passersby in the Venezuelan capital, and before police arrived at the scene, the crowd took the law into their own hands." The video can be seen here. Now, in the latest shocking development, Venezuela saw a new wave of looting this week that resulted in at least two deaths, countless wounded, and millions of dollars in losses and damages. According to Panampost, on Wednesday morning, a crowd sacked the Maracay Wholesale Market in the central region of Venezuela. According to the testimonies of merchants, the endless food lines that Venezuelans have been enduring to do groceries could not be organized that day.

As time went by, desperate Venezuelans grew anxious over not being able to buy food. Then they started jumping over the gates and stormed the supermarket. "They took milk, pasta, flour, oil, and milk powder. There were 5,000 people" one witness told Venezuela outlet El Estímulo. People from across the entire state came to the supermarket because there were rumors that some products not found anywhere else would be sold there. As a result of the massive crowd, the authorities were unable to preserve the peace. "There were 250 people for each National Guard officer… lots of people and few soldiers. At least one officer was beat up because he tried to stop the crowd,” another source told El Estímulo. Other food dispensaries run by the government were also looted by the people. Far from the promised socialist paradise, as the massive group of people moved, an entrance gate collapsed under the weight of the crowd, leaving several wounded.

MORE

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

Right, about as funny as electing Capitalists that buried us in $19 Trillion in debt to mainly Socialists.

 

[Norman]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

Right, about as funny as electing Capitalists that buried us in $19 Trillion in debt to mainly Socialists.

Are you seriously saying that Greece was a capitalist utopia... and then had a government debt crisis...


I think you may require a new dictionary.

 

[georgephillip]

What's my point in all this?

Mondragon is nothing special. It's another International Capitalist, multi-billion dollar corporation. They cut pay, open stores, and sell things, just like any other capitalist company.

"In a remarkable show of solidarity, workers at other Mondragon co-operatives repeatedly voted to cut their own salaries and transfer the savings to the ailing neighbour.

"A final bailout was agreed in May 2013, when Fagor received another €70m to help fund a new rescue plan (in total, it absorbed close to €300m from other co-operatives).

"Three months later, Fagor came back for more. This time, the answer was no. 'The risk we were running was that by putting ever more money into Fagor we could lose the whole group. We could lose everything,' says Mr Sotil.

"The bankruptcy was a shock all the same — the biggest setback in Mondragon’s history. 'There were many people outside the group, but also inside, who came out after the collapse of Fagor and said: ‘The thing with the co-operatives is over. Now the rest of the group will fall as well, says Mr Sotil.

"That claim was swiftly rebuffed.

"Today, the Mondragon group is in robust health once again and many of its strongest units are bent on international expansion. Most importantly, the group has been able to make good on its promise to rehire the vast majority of Fagor workers in other parts of Mondragon, sending a clear signal that solidarity lives on even after the individual co-operative itself falls.

"Beyond that, says Mr Sotil, the crisis has taught Mondragon valuable lessons: one is to tackle crises earlier and more decisively. Another is to ensure that individual co-operatives understand the need for internal flexibility — and, occasionally, the need to take tough decisions.

“'In the world of the co-operatives it is very easy to get used to the good times. But when things go badly, you have to respond with flexibility and do the corrections that need to be done. That was missing in Fagor,' says Mr Sotil.

“'Mondragon has come out stronger from all this,' he adds. 'We had a serious crisis. But the crucial thing is to learn from this failure, and not to be ashamed. Whoever says he only has success is lying.'”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/26740e3e-2aee-11e5-acfb-cbd2e1c81cca.html#axzz490vOl9Xs

 

[georgephillip]

gain......
The CIA wasn't involved in the coup. It was instigated by the Chillean Supreme Court, the Chillean Parlaiment and the Chillean army. THe CIA played no part in it whatsoever. You can't list any actual covert actions because there were none. The CIA did nothing. It played no part.

Again, you are dead wrong.
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/docs/doc01.pdf

 

[SuperDemocrat]

Has anyone ever considered that the power failure is being manufactured on purpose in order to shut down the capitalist system in that country. A lot of businesses rely on that power to operate. They make that power unavailable for them which makes it impossible to do busness. Isn't it diabolical.

 

[The Rabbi]

Has anyone ever considered that the power failure is being manufactured on purpose in order to shut down the capitalist system in that country. A lot of businesses rely on that power to operate. They make that power unavailable for them which makes it impossible to do busness. Isn't it diabolical.

I'd say an application of Hanlon's Razor disproves that.

 

[bripat9643]

Float the currency Maduro! Then provide money to all citizens to meet their basic needs for a time, while opening up to businesses.

How is the currency going to "meet their basic needs" when there is nothing to buy?

 

[Andylusion]

Yeah, and they are no where even close to being socialist. Not even close. Some are more capitalist than we are.

They are 'democratic socialists' and fall into the category of 'planned economy'.....

I.E. they prefer to live in a garden instead of a jungle.

They are absolutely nothing like socialists at all... in any way.... period. There is not one socialist aspect to any of them.

They have a few social programs, just like we have social programs. But they are not one inch more socialist than we are socialist. They are as much a capitalist based economy and country, as we are.

The top 1% of Swedish wealthy, own 35% to 40% of all Swedish wealth. Not that much different than the US.

2/3rd of wealthy Swedes inherited their wealth. The exact opposite of the US, where 2/3rd or more, earned their wealth.

Sweden has lots of wealth inequality - Marginal REVOLUTION

Social mobility is more of a joke. And many of the wealthy in Sweden, have their wealth outside the country, and thus are not calculated.

The super rich, live as super rich in Sweden, just as much as they do here in the US.

In short... this socialist utopian view of the Nordic countries is all a myth. It's not true. They are capitalist, just as much as the US.

Well THEY think that they are socialists, and I agree with them. There is nothing contrary to socialism about having wealthy people, or that they have income inequality. The latter is just a horse shit distraction and will never actually exist.

I have never met someone from a Nordic country, that thought they were socialist. And I have met several.

I met one guy who worked as a software engineer. He quit his job, opened his own business, and now he's the wealthy CEO. Capitalist, working under Capitalism.

The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism | Corey Iacono

The whole thing is a myth. There is nothing socialist about it. Even the Prime Minister of Denmark argued there was nothing socialist about Denmark (contrary to your ignorant claim they call themselves socialist)

I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.
-PM of Denmark
​

So now what is your excuse? Even the PM of Denmark says you are full absolute CRAP.

Moreover, even the supposed claims about the generous welfare benefits, are largely false.

Many states in the US, pay out more in welfare and unemployment comp, than Denmark does. The capped payout is only $30,000 a year. And you only get 80% to 70% of your wage when you were working.

By the way, if you don't work, you get zero. All benefits are tied to you working. No work, no money. Minimum pay out, is $10,000 a year. Far lower than many US states.

So even your claims about the generous welfare state, are not actually true.

You want to change US welfare, so that it's capped, has a lower minimum payout, required you to work to get any of it, and has a limit on how long you can collect any benefit? I'm all for it. If that is what you mean when you say you want to adopt Nordic style socialism..... capping, cutting, and making having requirements to get any government benefits.... I'm with you. Let's do it.

But that isn't what Bernie has said. So the bottom line, once again, Bernie is not in favor of Nordic style anything, no matter what he says.