Once again, Venezuela "Feeling the Bern" of socialism

[alpine]

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...

So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!

The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

What you are saying is logically impossible. If the Greece Government had zero debt.... they would not have crashed. It's like saying you have have your house foreclosed on... when you don't have a mortgage.

If you don't have a mortgage, it is fundamentally impossible to have your home foreclosed on.

Similarly, the crash can only have occurred because government spent more money than it collected in taxes. And that is a function of socialism. Are you suggesting that government is a Capitalist venture? I think not.

Moreover, your article cites a dozen different things... but they all support our original claim.

For example, they list off that the Agricultural Bank of Greece, gave out $5.5 Billion in bad loans to people connected with government.

So government, gave money from government banks, to government supporters. And that's not a socialism problem? What do you call that? How do you label a system created, run, and broken by government, a problem with Capitalism?

I love how the idiot in your article labels this "Bad private loans".... FROM GOVERNMENT BANKS YOU IDIOT!

Or they mention that 30% of the economy is untaxed, and hidden underground. Well no crap, the taxes are way too high. No one is going to pay that much in taxes. That's a problem with socialism, not private sector or capitalism.

He then complains of the "A restricted market". Who restricts the market? If GM wants to prevent me from building cars, they can't do jack. Only the government can stop me from building cars. So who restricted the market in Greece? Government. That's socialism, not Capitalism.

Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays.
​

Pension system is a product of socialism. Not capitalism.

Greek revenue never kept up with expenditure.
​

Almost like he read my posts.

Pensions for early retirees now burden state budgets disproportionately.
​

Bloated Greek Government "no no it's a myth! But they have a burden of massive pensions for retired government employees".... Well what the crap do you call a bloated government???

That is a bloated government! When you have so much in pension payments, that you sink the entire country, that's a bloated government. You people twist the words a hundred different ways to try and hide the truth.

Corruption and Socialism go hand in hand. The fact is, without socialist policies and socialist government programs, there would never have been a crash of the entire country, no matter how much corruption there was in the government.

Check the list I have up there.

Germany, France, UK, Greece.....


All EU states have a debt, and pretty close to each other


So; Greece crashed because of socialism

Why Germany not crashing?
Germany is capitalist? or socialist?


Well, that means it is not socialism nor capitalism that would crash a state

Aristotelian logic, been around for thousands of years.......


But this is not your fault, you have been fed the same bs in the mainstream media for a long time.
I don't expect much out of you anyways.....

 

[Andylusion]

Capitalist Greece you say?

Didn't they just elect a socialist...

Oh well...

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...

So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!

The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

What you are saying is logically impossible. If the Greece Government had zero debt.... they would not have crashed. It's like saying you have have your house foreclosed on... when you don't have a mortgage.

If you don't have a mortgage, it is fundamentally impossible to have your home foreclosed on.

Similarly, the crash can only have occurred because government spent more money than it collected in taxes. And that is a function of socialism. Are you suggesting that government is a Capitalist venture? I think not.

Moreover, your article cites a dozen different things... but they all support our original claim.

For example, they list off that the Agricultural Bank of Greece, gave out $5.5 Billion in bad loans to people connected with government.

So government, gave money from government banks, to government supporters. And that's not a socialism problem? What do you call that? How do you label a system created, run, and broken by government, a problem with Capitalism?

I love how the idiot in your article labels this "Bad private loans".... FROM GOVERNMENT BANKS YOU IDIOT!

Or they mention that 30% of the economy is untaxed, and hidden underground. Well no crap, the taxes are way too high. No one is going to pay that much in taxes. That's a problem with socialism, not private sector or capitalism.

He then complains of the "A restricted market". Who restricts the market? If GM wants to prevent me from building cars, they can't do jack. Only the government can stop me from building cars. So who restricted the market in Greece? Government. That's socialism, not Capitalism.

Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays.
​

Pension system is a product of socialism. Not capitalism.

Greek revenue never kept up with expenditure.
​

Almost like he read my posts.

Pensions for early retirees now burden state budgets disproportionately.
​

Bloated Greek Government "no no it's a myth! But they have a burden of massive pensions for retired government employees".... Well what the crap do you call a bloated government???

That is a bloated government! When you have so much in pension payments, that you sink the entire country, that's a bloated government. You people twist the words a hundred different ways to try and hide the truth.

Corruption and Socialism go hand in hand. The fact is, without socialist policies and socialist government programs, there would never have been a crash of the entire country, no matter how much corruption there was in the government.

Check the list I have up there.

Germany, France, UK, Greece.....


All EU states have a debt, and pretty close to each other


So; Greece crashed because of socialism

Why Germany not crashing?
Germany is capitalist? or socialist?


Well, that means it is not socialism nor capitalism that would crash a state

Aristotelian logic, been around for thousands of years.......


But this is not your fault, you have been fed the same bs in the mainstream media for a long time.
I don't expect much out of you anyways.....

It's all a matter of degrees. Germany didn't even have a minimum wage law, at all until 2015. It's not nearly as regulated and controlled, as Greece. Nor is it taxed as badly.

It's not your fault you've been fed the mainstream BS, that you can't see the truth anymore. I never expected anything intelligent from you anyways.

 

[Dovahkiin]

Float the currency Maduro! Then provide money to all citizens to meet their basic needs for a time, while opening up to businesses.

I'm confused by this as well.

How would floating the currency fix anything? How would providing money, solve the fact nothing is produced, and thus nothing is available to buy?

I can print you off a billion dollars in cash. But unless there are people out there producing goods for you to buy, it doesn't matter how much cash you have.

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

Venezuela's problems stem from the socialist policies and the messed up currency exchange they have. Have you ever looked into it?
How to fix Venezuela
The article touches on this. Floating will help venezuela acquire more goods for the citizens, assuming they become more friendly to businesses and remove price caps/etc...

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

I agree.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

I agree, but why did you say the peso? It's the bolivar.

Now, consider Venezuela's currency exchange system, which governs how much Venezuela's currency — the bolívar — trades for against other currencies — most importantly the U.S. dollar. A functional currency exchange system is important because it allows all the various parts of a country's economy to exist in dynamic equilibrium with the flow of goods and services coming in from outside the country; it allows the domestic economy to adapt and rebalance as flows of exports and imports change.

America has a floating exchange rate. The dollar isn't pegged to anything, like another currency or the value of gold. So how much of another currency you get in exchange for a dollar "floats" up and down all the time, reacting to countless forces in the market.

Venezuela's system, by contrast, is a dysfunctional mess. The country's official exchange rate is pegged to the dollar — specifically, it's 10 bolívares for $1. So no matter what happens, whenever the government does business with anyone, it gets or gives 10 bolívares for every $1.

But there's also an enormous black market currency exchange. This is where the hyperinflation is coming from: The number of bolívares you can get for $1 on the black market has rocketed up to well over 1,000, and may go considerably higher.

You are correct, the Bolivars, not peso. I don't even think Venezuela can allow the Bolivar to float.

Black-Market Bolivars Crash Past 1,000 Per Dollar in Venezuela

According to this, the government has doubled the money supply in 12 months, which is why the black market rate is 1,000 Bolivar for one Dollar.

If they released controls now, it would be Zimbabwe all over again. People would start trading in gold dust, or dollars in the streets. The government would cease to function. Which of course would be best for the country, but a disaster for socialism, and Maduro.

I don't think so. Zimbabwe completely dismantled their productive capacity. Venezuela has resources and potential.

 

[HenryBHough]

And, said Comrade Maduro earlier today, It's only a matter of time before he "disappears" the entire legislature.

Good thing Comrade Obama only visited Cuba - let's hope nobody tells Him about Venezuela!

Probably safe....all the golf courses in Venezuela were shut down over a year ago.

 

[Dovahkiin]

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...

So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!

The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

What you are saying is logically impossible. If the Greece Government had zero debt.... they would not have crashed. It's like saying you have have your house foreclosed on... when you don't have a mortgage.

If you don't have a mortgage, it is fundamentally impossible to have your home foreclosed on.

Similarly, the crash can only have occurred because government spent more money than it collected in taxes. And that is a function of socialism. Are you suggesting that government is a Capitalist venture? I think not.

Moreover, your article cites a dozen different things... but they all support our original claim.

For example, they list off that the Agricultural Bank of Greece, gave out $5.5 Billion in bad loans to people connected with government.

So government, gave money from government banks, to government supporters. And that's not a socialism problem? What do you call that? How do you label a system created, run, and broken by government, a problem with Capitalism?

I love how the idiot in your article labels this "Bad private loans".... FROM GOVERNMENT BANKS YOU IDIOT!

Or they mention that 30% of the economy is untaxed, and hidden underground. Well no crap, the taxes are way too high. No one is going to pay that much in taxes. That's a problem with socialism, not private sector or capitalism.

He then complains of the "A restricted market". Who restricts the market? If GM wants to prevent me from building cars, they can't do jack. Only the government can stop me from building cars. So who restricted the market in Greece? Government. That's socialism, not Capitalism.

Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays.
​

Pension system is a product of socialism. Not capitalism.

Greek revenue never kept up with expenditure.
​

Almost like he read my posts.

Pensions for early retirees now burden state budgets disproportionately.
​

Bloated Greek Government "no no it's a myth! But they have a burden of massive pensions for retired government employees".... Well what the crap do you call a bloated government???

That is a bloated government! When you have so much in pension payments, that you sink the entire country, that's a bloated government. You people twist the words a hundred different ways to try and hide the truth.

Corruption and Socialism go hand in hand. The fact is, without socialist policies and socialist government programs, there would never have been a crash of the entire country, no matter how much corruption there was in the government.

Check the list I have up there.

Germany, France, UK, Greece.....


All EU states have a debt, and pretty close to each other


So; Greece crashed because of socialism

Why Germany not crashing?
Germany is capitalist? or socialist?


Well, that means it is not socialism nor capitalism that would crash a state

Aristotelian logic, been around for thousands of years.......


But this is not your fault, you have been fed the same bs in the mainstream media for a long time.
I don't expect much out of you anyways.....

It's all a matter of degrees. Germany didn't even have a minimum wage law, at all until 2015. It's not nearly as regulated and controlled, as Greece. Nor is it taxed as badly.

It's not your fault you've been fed the mainstream BS, that you can't see the truth anymore. I never expected anything intelligent from you anyways.

Germany still has high wages due to unions. And it still does. They also run a trade surplus though, which harms the rest of europe.

 

[alpine]

Yes, the key word is "just" in your message,
which means "after the fact"

Hope makes sense...

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...

So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!

The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

What you are saying is logically impossible. If the Greece Government had zero debt.... they would not have crashed. It's like saying you have have your house foreclosed on... when you don't have a mortgage.

If you don't have a mortgage, it is fundamentally impossible to have your home foreclosed on.

Similarly, the crash can only have occurred because government spent more money than it collected in taxes. And that is a function of socialism. Are you suggesting that government is a Capitalist venture? I think not.

Moreover, your article cites a dozen different things... but they all support our original claim.

For example, they list off that the Agricultural Bank of Greece, gave out $5.5 Billion in bad loans to people connected with government.

So government, gave money from government banks, to government supporters. And that's not a socialism problem? What do you call that? How do you label a system created, run, and broken by government, a problem with Capitalism?

I love how the idiot in your article labels this "Bad private loans".... FROM GOVERNMENT BANKS YOU IDIOT!

Or they mention that 30% of the economy is untaxed, and hidden underground. Well no crap, the taxes are way too high. No one is going to pay that much in taxes. That's a problem with socialism, not private sector or capitalism.

He then complains of the "A restricted market". Who restricts the market? If GM wants to prevent me from building cars, they can't do jack. Only the government can stop me from building cars. So who restricted the market in Greece? Government. That's socialism, not Capitalism.

Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays.
​

Pension system is a product of socialism. Not capitalism.

Greek revenue never kept up with expenditure.
​

Almost like he read my posts.

Pensions for early retirees now burden state budgets disproportionately.
​

Bloated Greek Government "no no it's a myth! But they have a burden of massive pensions for retired government employees".... Well what the crap do you call a bloated government???

That is a bloated government! When you have so much in pension payments, that you sink the entire country, that's a bloated government. You people twist the words a hundred different ways to try and hide the truth.

Corruption and Socialism go hand in hand. The fact is, without socialist policies and socialist government programs, there would never have been a crash of the entire country, no matter how much corruption there was in the government.

Check the list I have up there.

Germany, France, UK, Greece.....


All EU states have a debt, and pretty close to each other


So; Greece crashed because of socialism

Why Germany not crashing?
Germany is capitalist? or socialist?


Well, that means it is not socialism nor capitalism that would crash a state

Aristotelian logic, been around for thousands of years.......


But this is not your fault, you have been fed the same bs in the mainstream media for a long time.
I don't expect much out of you anyways.....

It's all a matter of degrees. Germany didn't even have a minimum wage law, at all until 2015. It's not nearly as regulated and controlled, as Greece. Nor is it taxed as badly.

It's not your fault you've been fed the mainstream BS, that you can't see the truth anymore. I never expected anything intelligent from you anyways.

German gov didnt have to regulate a min wage, because traditionally very strong unions would take care of that issue. But now it is let alone Greece, higher than most of the industrialized countries.

So you predict a collapse for German socialist welfare min wage economy soon?
1 year?
2 years?


What you gonna do if it does not, eat your shorts???

 

[Dovahkiin]

"These days"

Who cares what they are now?

They already crashed...

Yes, they have crashed because of too much debt financing...

And they will never recover as long as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy.

"as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy"

If only it did


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years.

I just posted the actual chart with the actual numbers.

It's 4th largest government in Europe currently. In 2013 it was the largest.

Is chart too difficult for you to read? That was over a decade ago!

The Greece state is way too big for them to ever recover...

Nobody cares what Greece was in 2013, because they were already crashed at that point.

Your logic is like seeing a man die while drinking water and concluding that water killed the man
No, the man was cancer, and cancer sucked the life out of him bit by bit, year after year

You need something called "historical" data to be able to do analysis of this type of situations
Since too hard for you to click on the link in my post, i will post the chart here;

As seen here, Greece was around the average for the years she was going into a default

So you are repeating a pretty common misconception, but thats fine...

I think all of you that are arguing about what percentage of GDP the government was spending.... are all a little nuts.

Those statistics are nice at some intellectual ivory tower somewhere, to have calculator nerds mull over after drinking too much coffee on a Friday night.

None of it though, actually matters.

Here is what matters....... Do the people who lend money, think you are a worthy borrower?

If they do not..... all your little statistics and numbers, and calculator crunching, doesn't mean diddly jack. All your charts and graphs are absolutely pointless.

Let me give you an example. So you are an executive at a major tire factory, and you want to borrow $100,000 from the bank. You walk in, ask for the loan, and bank president starts looking over your stats.

Hmmm... Stock in the tire company. $300,000 a year income. The bank may give you the loan. But what if the bank looks at your company records and finds, the company itself is deeply in debt, sales have been falling year over year, and there is new people in the market from cheaper competitors.

You may not get the loan. Why? Because all those millions in stock, will be worth zero if the company closes. And your income which is $300,000 today, could be zero after your unemployed.

One stat... Government expenditure as a percent of GDP... is not the only stat in the world that matters. It's not even the most important state.

How much were the Greek government future liabilities? How much were future pension payments expected to be? How is the Greek economy doing? Going strong? Or were there systemic problems?

I'm not going to buy a Greek bond that pays out in 10 years, based on a single statistical number that only reflects on today. Greeks Gov to GDP %, could be only 10% today. Doesn't matter. What's it going to look like in 10 years, when they are supposed to pay me back my money with interest?

And the fact is, all that BS about they were below, above, the same as the OECD doesn't matter. What matters is, the lenders deemed Greece risky. That's all that matters. Greece decided to borrow until people were no longer comfortable with how much they owed. All your "this chart shows".... doesn't matter.

Lenders don't care about your chart. So why you guys are bickering about it, I don't know. Completely irrelevant. They borrowed too much money, and lenders were not comfortable with it. Period.

This is why we in the US need to stop borrowing before that switch flips for us, and we end up in a crisis.

Responding to this to question why you said this:

This is why we in the US need to stop borrowing before that switch flips for us, and we end up in a crisis.

The US is a sovereign currency issuer that floats our currency and has no debt denominated in a foreign currency/ a peg, with plenty of real resources. Greece and other countries that don't control their currency aren't able to do what currency issuers can do. Look at Japan, their problems don't come from their extremely low interest bonds, but from deflation/high savings.

 

[Andylusion]

Float the currency Maduro! Then provide money to all citizens to meet their basic needs for a time, while opening up to businesses.

I'm confused by this as well.

How would floating the currency fix anything? How would providing money, solve the fact nothing is produced, and thus nothing is available to buy?

I can print you off a billion dollars in cash. But unless there are people out there producing goods for you to buy, it doesn't matter how much cash you have.

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

Venezuela's problems stem from the socialist policies and the messed up currency exchange they have. Have you ever looked into it?
How to fix Venezuela
The article touches on this. Floating will help venezuela acquire more goods for the citizens, assuming they become more friendly to businesses and remove price caps/etc...

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

I agree.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

I agree, but why did you say the peso? It's the bolivar.

Now, consider Venezuela's currency exchange system, which governs how much Venezuela's currency — the bolívar — trades for against other currencies — most importantly the U.S. dollar. A functional currency exchange system is important because it allows all the various parts of a country's economy to exist in dynamic equilibrium with the flow of goods and services coming in from outside the country; it allows the domestic economy to adapt and rebalance as flows of exports and imports change.

America has a floating exchange rate. The dollar isn't pegged to anything, like another currency or the value of gold. So how much of another currency you get in exchange for a dollar "floats" up and down all the time, reacting to countless forces in the market.

Venezuela's system, by contrast, is a dysfunctional mess. The country's official exchange rate is pegged to the dollar — specifically, it's 10 bolívares for $1. So no matter what happens, whenever the government does business with anyone, it gets or gives 10 bolívares for every $1.

But there's also an enormous black market currency exchange. This is where the hyperinflation is coming from: The number of bolívares you can get for $1 on the black market has rocketed up to well over 1,000, and may go considerably higher.

You are correct, the Bolivars, not peso. I don't even think Venezuela can allow the Bolivar to float.

Black-Market Bolivars Crash Past 1,000 Per Dollar in Venezuela

According to this, the government has doubled the money supply in 12 months, which is why the black market rate is 1,000 Bolivar for one Dollar.

If they released controls now, it would be Zimbabwe all over again. People would start trading in gold dust, or dollars in the streets. The government would cease to function. Which of course would be best for the country, but a disaster for socialism, and Maduro.

I don't think so. Zimbabwe completely dismantled their productive capacity. Venezuela has resources and potential.

They did the same thing. Venezuela confiscated land from productive farmers, and gave it to poor individuals. Just like Zimbabwe did.

Zimbabwe also nationalized industrial business, just like Venezuela has.

What difference are you referring to?

 

[Dovahkiin]

Float the currency Maduro! Then provide money to all citizens to meet their basic needs for a time, while opening up to businesses.

I'm confused by this as well.

How would floating the currency fix anything? How would providing money, solve the fact nothing is produced, and thus nothing is available to buy?

I can print you off a billion dollars in cash. But unless there are people out there producing goods for you to buy, it doesn't matter how much cash you have.

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

Venezuela's problems stem from the socialist policies and the messed up currency exchange they have. Have you ever looked into it?
How to fix Venezuela
The article touches on this. Floating will help venezuela acquire more goods for the citizens, assuming they become more friendly to businesses and remove price caps/etc...

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

I agree.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

I agree, but why did you say the peso? It's the bolivar.

Now, consider Venezuela's currency exchange system, which governs how much Venezuela's currency — the bolívar — trades for against other currencies — most importantly the U.S. dollar. A functional currency exchange system is important because it allows all the various parts of a country's economy to exist in dynamic equilibrium with the flow of goods and services coming in from outside the country; it allows the domestic economy to adapt and rebalance as flows of exports and imports change.

America has a floating exchange rate. The dollar isn't pegged to anything, like another currency or the value of gold. So how much of another currency you get in exchange for a dollar "floats" up and down all the time, reacting to countless forces in the market.

Venezuela's system, by contrast, is a dysfunctional mess. The country's official exchange rate is pegged to the dollar — specifically, it's 10 bolívares for $1. So no matter what happens, whenever the government does business with anyone, it gets or gives 10 bolívares for every $1.

But there's also an enormous black market currency exchange. This is where the hyperinflation is coming from: The number of bolívares you can get for $1 on the black market has rocketed up to well over 1,000, and may go considerably higher.

You are correct, the Bolivars, not peso. I don't even think Venezuela can allow the Bolivar to float.

Black-Market Bolivars Crash Past 1,000 Per Dollar in Venezuela

According to this, the government has doubled the money supply in 12 months, which is why the black market rate is 1,000 Bolivar for one Dollar.

If they released controls now, it would be Zimbabwe all over again. People would start trading in gold dust, or dollars in the streets. The government would cease to function. Which of course would be best for the country, but a disaster for socialism, and Maduro.

I don't think so. Zimbabwe completely dismantled their productive capacity. Venezuela has resources and potential.

They did the same thing. Venezuela confiscated land from productive farmers, and gave it to poor individuals. Just like Zimbabwe did.

Zimbabwe also nationalized industrial business, just like Venezuela has.

What difference are you referring to?

Venezuela still has the option to turn production back over to the private sector. They haven't reached the desperate point found in zimbabwe.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes, they have crashed because of too much debt financing...

And they will never recover as long as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy.

"as the government takes such a huge chunk of the economy"

If only it did


August 6, 2015
The most important misconception is that the Greek state is “too big.” This is taken to mean that it either spends too much or that it employs too many, or both. These problems plagued Greece in the 1980s, but they don’t today. Insisting on them now only worsens the situation.

Despite all the recriminations, Greece’s public expenditures were below the EU average during the 2000s, hovering above average in only a few years.

I just posted the actual chart with the actual numbers.

It's 4th largest government in Europe currently. In 2013 it was the largest.

Is chart too difficult for you to read? That was over a decade ago!

The Greece state is way too big for them to ever recover...

Nobody cares what Greece was in 2013, because they were already crashed at that point.

Your logic is like seeing a man die while drinking water and concluding that water killed the man
No, the man was cancer, and cancer sucked the life out of him bit by bit, year after year

You need something called "historical" data to be able to do analysis of this type of situations
Since too hard for you to click on the link in my post, i will post the chart here;

As seen here, Greece was around the average for the years she was going into a default

So you are repeating a pretty common misconception, but thats fine...

I think all of you that are arguing about what percentage of GDP the government was spending.... are all a little nuts.

Those statistics are nice at some intellectual ivory tower somewhere, to have calculator nerds mull over after drinking too much coffee on a Friday night.

None of it though, actually matters.

Here is what matters....... Do the people who lend money, think you are a worthy borrower?

If they do not..... all your little statistics and numbers, and calculator crunching, doesn't mean diddly jack. All your charts and graphs are absolutely pointless.

Let me give you an example. So you are an executive at a major tire factory, and you want to borrow $100,000 from the bank. You walk in, ask for the loan, and bank president starts looking over your stats.

Hmmm... Stock in the tire company. $300,000 a year income. The bank may give you the loan. But what if the bank looks at your company records and finds, the company itself is deeply in debt, sales have been falling year over year, and there is new people in the market from cheaper competitors.

You may not get the loan. Why? Because all those millions in stock, will be worth zero if the company closes. And your income which is $300,000 today, could be zero after your unemployed.

One stat... Government expenditure as a percent of GDP... is not the only stat in the world that matters. It's not even the most important state.

How much were the Greek government future liabilities? How much were future pension payments expected to be? How is the Greek economy doing? Going strong? Or were there systemic problems?

I'm not going to buy a Greek bond that pays out in 10 years, based on a single statistical number that only reflects on today. Greeks Gov to GDP %, could be only 10% today. Doesn't matter. What's it going to look like in 10 years, when they are supposed to pay me back my money with interest?

And the fact is, all that BS about they were below, above, the same as the OECD doesn't matter. What matters is, the lenders deemed Greece risky. That's all that matters. Greece decided to borrow until people were no longer comfortable with how much they owed. All your "this chart shows".... doesn't matter.

Lenders don't care about your chart. So why you guys are bickering about it, I don't know. Completely irrelevant. They borrowed too much money, and lenders were not comfortable with it. Period.

This is why we in the US need to stop borrowing before that switch flips for us, and we end up in a crisis.

Responding to this to question why you said this:

This is why we in the US need to stop borrowing before that switch flips for us, and we end up in a crisis.

The US is a sovereign currency issuer that floats our currency and has no debt denominated in a foreign currency/ a peg, with plenty of real resources. Greece and other countries that don't control their currency aren't able to do what currency issuers can do. Look at Japan, their problems don't come from their extremely low interest bonds, but from deflation/high savings.

The whole reason the US floats it's currency, and Zimbabwe and Venezuela do not, is because Zimbabwe and Venezuela have been printing out cash, and paying their bills with it, which devalues the cash. Pegging the currency, was an attempt to avoid the consequences of printing cash.

If the US openly engaged in a policy of paying US government bills, with printing out more and more cash, the currency would go through a devaluation, just like the Zimbabwe and Venezuela. The results of that would be devastating, and the US government would do the exact same as Zimbabwe and Venezuela, and try to stem the devaluation by pegging the currency.

Moreover, you talk about plenty of real resources, but having resources isn't enough. Soviet Russia had plenty of real resources, and had complete control over their currency.

Take Hong Kong and China. China had complete control over their currency, and plenty of resources, yet in 1978, 63% of the public lived on less than $2 a day.

Hong Kong on the other hand had no real resources, and only limited control over the HKDollar liked to the British Sterling until the 70s, and yet they became an Asian tiger.

I would even suggest that resources are dynamic in some ways, and that printing money, destroys the production of resources.

When you print money, devaluing the currency, people have an incentive to get rid of assets denominated in that currency.

For example, if I'm Chinese and I have a million US Dollars, and I see the US government printing off cash, I might buy gold with my USD, before it devalues much, have the gold shipped to China, and sell it for a stable currency.

The US, due to printing money, will lose resources. But not only that, it would destroy the production of resources as well.

If I'm a foreign investor, and own a gold mining company in the US... why would I continue to operate? If I continue operations, I'll be paid in USD, which I see the US government is printing money, and devaluing that profit. So why bother? I may sell off my investments, close down my operations, and move over seas.

So while capital resources might be huge in the US right now... if we exercise our control over the dollar, by printing more dollars, we won't have the resources we do now.

That's why I keep laughing at people who say "If Greece only had control over their currency, and had more resources...." They would be worse off, than they are right now.

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm confused by this as well.

How would floating the currency fix anything? How would providing money, solve the fact nothing is produced, and thus nothing is available to buy?

I can print you off a billion dollars in cash. But unless there are people out there producing goods for you to buy, it doesn't matter how much cash you have.

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

Venezuela's problems stem from the socialist policies and the messed up currency exchange they have. Have you ever looked into it?
How to fix Venezuela
The article touches on this. Floating will help venezuela acquire more goods for the citizens, assuming they become more friendly to businesses and remove price caps/etc...

The first job is to open up to business. Privatize all the companies that have been nationalized. Allow people to sell product for whatever price they want.

Doing that by itself... will fix a ton of problems.

I agree.

Second, open up bids to build coal burning power plants. Get the nation back on 24/7 power. In the mean time, build oil burning power plants right now, and start using that endless amounts of oil, to power the country until some coal burners come online.

Venezuela has more than enough industry and production, to get itself back on track without bothering with international trade.

By all means let the peso float, but that's a minor deal compared to the rest.

I agree, but why did you say the peso? It's the bolivar.

Now, consider Venezuela's currency exchange system, which governs how much Venezuela's currency — the bolívar — trades for against other currencies — most importantly the U.S. dollar. A functional currency exchange system is important because it allows all the various parts of a country's economy to exist in dynamic equilibrium with the flow of goods and services coming in from outside the country; it allows the domestic economy to adapt and rebalance as flows of exports and imports change.

America has a floating exchange rate. The dollar isn't pegged to anything, like another currency or the value of gold. So how much of another currency you get in exchange for a dollar "floats" up and down all the time, reacting to countless forces in the market.

Venezuela's system, by contrast, is a dysfunctional mess. The country's official exchange rate is pegged to the dollar — specifically, it's 10 bolívares for $1. So no matter what happens, whenever the government does business with anyone, it gets or gives 10 bolívares for every $1.

But there's also an enormous black market currency exchange. This is where the hyperinflation is coming from: The number of bolívares you can get for $1 on the black market has rocketed up to well over 1,000, and may go considerably higher.

You are correct, the Bolivars, not peso. I don't even think Venezuela can allow the Bolivar to float.

Black-Market Bolivars Crash Past 1,000 Per Dollar in Venezuela

According to this, the government has doubled the money supply in 12 months, which is why the black market rate is 1,000 Bolivar for one Dollar.

If they released controls now, it would be Zimbabwe all over again. People would start trading in gold dust, or dollars in the streets. The government would cease to function. Which of course would be best for the country, but a disaster for socialism, and Maduro.

I don't think so. Zimbabwe completely dismantled their productive capacity. Venezuela has resources and potential.

They did the same thing. Venezuela confiscated land from productive farmers, and gave it to poor individuals. Just like Zimbabwe did.

Zimbabwe also nationalized industrial business, just like Venezuela has.

What difference are you referring to?

Venezuela still has the option to turn production back over to the private sector. They haven't reached the desperate point found in zimbabwe.

People n Venezuela are rioting because there isnt any toilet paper or onions, dpshit. If that isn't desperate I dont know what is.

 

[Andylusion]

No, actually the crisis too, was the fault of socialism. It should ring a bell that it was a government debt crisis...

It is funny thought that they elect socialists to fix the mess. That never works... and now we see the results.

No, the reason of the crash was NOT socialism

Social policies, which you claim makes a country socialist, exist in all major EU countries, and they dont crash do they?

In fact, Germany for instance, with all her social policies, even more extreme compared to Greece at times, is doing pretty dam good...

So, if it is not socialism, nor capitalism was the cause of this crash in Greece, what was it???

The answer to this question is simple;

CORRUPTION!!!

The Myth of the Bloated Greek State

What you are saying is logically impossible. If the Greece Government had zero debt.... they would not have crashed. It's like saying you have have your house foreclosed on... when you don't have a mortgage.

If you don't have a mortgage, it is fundamentally impossible to have your home foreclosed on.

Similarly, the crash can only have occurred because government spent more money than it collected in taxes. And that is a function of socialism. Are you suggesting that government is a Capitalist venture? I think not.

Moreover, your article cites a dozen different things... but they all support our original claim.

For example, they list off that the Agricultural Bank of Greece, gave out $5.5 Billion in bad loans to people connected with government.

So government, gave money from government banks, to government supporters. And that's not a socialism problem? What do you call that? How do you label a system created, run, and broken by government, a problem with Capitalism?

I love how the idiot in your article labels this "Bad private loans".... FROM GOVERNMENT BANKS YOU IDIOT!

Or they mention that 30% of the economy is untaxed, and hidden underground. Well no crap, the taxes are way too high. No one is going to pay that much in taxes. That's a problem with socialism, not private sector or capitalism.

He then complains of the "A restricted market". Who restricts the market? If GM wants to prevent me from building cars, they can't do jack. Only the government can stop me from building cars. So who restricted the market in Greece? Government. That's socialism, not Capitalism.

Pensions have also been a major expense, more due to demographics and early retirements than systematically generous outlays.
​

Pension system is a product of socialism. Not capitalism.

Greek revenue never kept up with expenditure.
​

Almost like he read my posts.

Pensions for early retirees now burden state budgets disproportionately.
​

Bloated Greek Government "no no it's a myth! But they have a burden of massive pensions for retired government employees".... Well what the crap do you call a bloated government???

That is a bloated government! When you have so much in pension payments, that you sink the entire country, that's a bloated government. You people twist the words a hundred different ways to try and hide the truth.

Corruption and Socialism go hand in hand. The fact is, without socialist policies and socialist government programs, there would never have been a crash of the entire country, no matter how much corruption there was in the government.

Check the list I have up there.

Germany, France, UK, Greece.....


All EU states have a debt, and pretty close to each other


So; Greece crashed because of socialism

Why Germany not crashing?
Germany is capitalist? or socialist?


Well, that means it is not socialism nor capitalism that would crash a state

Aristotelian logic, been around for thousands of years.......


But this is not your fault, you have been fed the same bs in the mainstream media for a long time.
I don't expect much out of you anyways.....

It's all a matter of degrees. Germany didn't even have a minimum wage law, at all until 2015. It's not nearly as regulated and controlled, as Greece. Nor is it taxed as badly.

It's not your fault you've been fed the mainstream BS, that you can't see the truth anymore. I never expected anything intelligent from you anyways.

Germany still has high wages due to unions. And it still does. They also run a trade surplus though, which harms the rest of europe.

That's not true. None of that is true.

A trade surplus is due to the fact that Germany has pro-business policies, that allow them to produce more than they consume. Germans, having learned from the soviet destruction, tend to be savers as a cultural group. The result is they don't consume as much.

If they consumed as much as the average European, they would import more.

Further wages are not nearly as high as you think, and Unions are not nearly as prevalent as you suggest. In fact, total Union participation in Germany is only 18%. The union participation in the US, is 11%. Not that big of a difference.

Moreover, Unions in Germany are pro-corporation. Unlike American Unions which intentionally destroy the company that employs them, German Unions tend to adopt policies and attitudes that help promote the companies that provide them jobs.

For example, while Hostess unions prevented the laying off of workers, and advancement of automation, to make the company profitable..... German Unions have embraced automation, and even allowed temp employees with starting pay at $10/hour even for German automakers.

Why? Because they know bankrupting their companies, will simply cause the companies to move out of Germany. Exactly what we see happening in the US constantly.

This is exactly why companies move out of France and other EU countries, and move to Germany, and then you complain they have a trade surplus. That's not German's fault. That's EUs, Unions, and socialists fault.

 

[Andylusion]

So once again, another damaging report of Socialist "Free Health Care" in Venezuela....
Venezuelan Patients Dying Amid Lack Of Medicine

Apparently the deserting doctors from Cuba, have not saved Venezuela from destruction.

Endless "Feel the Bern" promises of free health care, have resulted in chaos in Venezuela, as patients are left without doctors, without medicine, without even hospital beds. Patients are left on gurneys in the hallway, some left to simply die.

Hospitals have no air conditioning. No cleaning. Not even water. In some cases the bodies of the dead, were left in hall ways. The morgues are full, and often their air condition doesn't work either. Obviously the hospitals now stink with decay.

"The families of those admitted to the hospital must provide their medicine, bedding, food, water, soap and water."

The report now shows that apparently "free feel-the-bern health care" now involves you 'freely' bringing your own supplies.

While the state of free hospital care is horrific, it isn't surprising given how things are outside the hospital.

Sky News watched hundreds of people queue for five hours outside a supermarket before they were allowed to enter and see what was available to buy at the government set price. All they could take were two jars of mayonnaise per person.

5 hours..... to get two jars of mayonnaise. Good thing price controls keep the prices low. Who knows how much those jars would have cost if the benevolent government had not stepped in to keep the evil greedy rich 1% in check.

From a doctor in the government run hospital, had this to say after decades of Democratic Socialist control.....

Visibly angry and emotional, he told me: "We don't get the medicine we need and even if there was a supply they don't ask us what we want. This populist government says it is here to favour the poor, it is a complete lie.
"After spending and looting, this government has destroyed the country and it is drowning in misery and desolation.

There is your feel the Bern.... and Venezuela is Berning in misery and desolation.