Once again, Venezuela "Feeling the Bern" of socialism

[Andylusion]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Greece is a socialist country. You can retire at 50 if you have a cushy government job.

And your life savings will be wiped out if you don't.

Corruption...

Comparison of Tax Evasion Rates as percent of GDP 2012 estimate[14]
country % of GDP
Estonia 28.6
Greece 24.3
Latvia 21.6
Italy 21.6
Belgium 17.1
Germany 13.5


The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks.[20] The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying "Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros".[21] Additionally, the TJN puts the number of Greek-owned off-shore companies to over 10,000.[22]


Somebody stole the money from the piggy bank in Greece.
It has nothing do with her being a socialist or a capitalist.

SOMEBODY STOLE IT!!

Like in Venezuela....

But in Greece the government GAVE the banks the national treasury in the USA we only gave the Wall Street banks $5 trillion and the banks then paid themselves bonuses for it.

You say that like it's bad. Of course they got a bonus. That's how many of them were paid. Do you work for ZERO? Nothing? Volunteer work?

Let's say they were denied their bonus pay, and since they were in bankruptcy, they had zero income. Everyone would have walked off the job. Now imagine if your mortgage was with them. Suddenly, your entire life is in limbo. You are likely racking up late fees, but have no ability to pay. There is one at the bank taking those payments because they all left.

You talk about economic chaos.... That would have done it.

The solution was to not get involved at all. Bankruptcy system works fine left to itself.

But the ignorant were all demanding that government do something, so they did.

 

[alpine]

We are not talking about SYRIZA Greece...

Empty shelves in Greece was not because Greece was a capitalist country,
nor because it turned into a semi socialist at some point.

You gotta understand the reasons why governments fail to provide their people a good future.

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

And the problem didn't arise from private sector jobs and industry did it? It came from the pension system, and Greek government debt.

In fact, even after the first big crash, and austerity was put in place, private sector growth and employment was on the rise.

This latest crash wasn't from the Capitalist private sector, but rather the government once again screwing over the country.

And perhaps you could even say the private sector isn't as productive as it should be. Ok, I would agree with that. But it wasn't the private sector that imposed taxes and regulations on itself. It wasn't the private sector the imposed a minimum wage on itself. It was the private sector that imposed employment laws, and pension costs, and health care taxes on itself.

All of that is socialism. Social control over the private sector. That's why for 8 years, while the minimum wage was indexed to inflation and increasing every year, the employment rates were falling. The moment they cut the minimum wage, employment went up.

The more socialized they get, the worse off they are. The less socialized they are, the better off they get.

It is hilarious how you claim the "taxes", which most private sector in Greece did "NOT" pay and evaded in the first place (totaling to 37 bil euro, more than the pension cost to Greece), caused the failure of the state.

Shows your ill logic quite nicely....

 

[Andylusion]

Obama's good buddy, Bill Ayers, loves and visits and makes speeches in Venezuela. Bill Ayers makes a fortune as a teacher at a Government University here in the USA, and he preaches that we need a Marxist revolution!
November | 2006 | Bill Ayers

World Education Forum
Caracas, Venezuela
I walked out of jail and into my first teaching position—and from that day until this I’ve thought of myself as a teacher, but I’ve also understood teaching as a project intimately connected with social justice. After all, the fundamental message of the teacher is this: you can change your life—whoever you are, wherever you’ve been, whatever you’ve done, another world is possible. As students and teachers begin to see themselves as linked to one another, as tied to history and capable of collective action, the fundamental message of teaching shifts slightly, and becomes broader, more generous: we must change ourselves as we come together to change the world. Teaching invites transformations, it urges revolutions small and large. La educacion es revolucion!

OK, so Hillary supports Venezuela style socialism, maybe, but that doesnt have shit to do with Sanders.

Sure it does. Bernie's policies are exactly the ones implemented by the current government of Venezuela.

That is not true and you are spreading lies you have heard from someone else.

What was Venezuela's top tax bracket for individuals? 34%

And Bernie Sanders is 54%

Lol, Sanders is higher and more akin to what Denmark pays, not Venezuela.

And Venezuela's economy is not crashing from democratic socialism but from the nationalization of the oil industry and due to a crash in the value of oil which is their major export, their currency has dropped by a factor of 6 in the past few years, and the economic turmoil is scaring away foreign investment. The story for the Nordic Socialist nations is entirely different as is Sanders economic plan which does not involve nationalizing anything, much less the majority of our national ewxport.

You are talking from a place you know not of, though I am sure that you will just claim that Sanders plan is even worse since the individual income tax is higher, right? And you will ignore the successful record of what the Nordic Model has while Venezuela's, nothing like Sanders plan, is crashing due to being a Marxist economy.

Does Bernie support more social (government) control over corporations? From what I have read, and the few times I've heard him speak, the answer is yes.

Whether he openly supports directly nationalizing corporations is not entirely relevant.

As everyone everywhere, knows already... every economic system is a mix of capitalist and socialist policies. This is universally true. Even in the heart of Stalin Communist Russia, 1/3 of all food was produced by private capitalist farms. Why? Because socialism sucks, and without those few capitalist farms, Communism would have starved itself out back in the 1940s.

So whether or not Bernie supports one specifically exclusive policy that Venezuela put in place... is not relevant.

Do the policies that Bernie supports, push towards socialism, or Capitalism? More government control, or less government control?

The fact is, every single policy that Bernie supports, is a move towards socialism, and a move down the same path as Venezuela.

Yeah, adopting out right nationalization of corporations would move us down the path of Venezuela quicker. I agree. But each mini-step is on the same path, to the same destination.

 

[Andylusion]

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

And the problem didn't arise from private sector jobs and industry did it? It came from the pension system, and Greek government debt.

In fact, even after the first big crash, and austerity was put in place, private sector growth and employment was on the rise.

This latest crash wasn't from the Capitalist private sector, but rather the government once again screwing over the country.

And perhaps you could even say the private sector isn't as productive as it should be. Ok, I would agree with that. But it wasn't the private sector that imposed taxes and regulations on itself. It wasn't the private sector the imposed a minimum wage on itself. It was the private sector that imposed employment laws, and pension costs, and health care taxes on itself.

All of that is socialism. Social control over the private sector. That's why for 8 years, while the minimum wage was indexed to inflation and increasing every year, the employment rates were falling. The moment they cut the minimum wage, employment went up.

The more socialized they get, the worse off they are. The less socialized they are, the better off they get.

It is hilarious how you claim the "taxes", which most private sector in Greece did "NOT" pay and evaded in the first place (totaling to 37 bil euro, more than the pension cost to Greece), caused the failure of the state.

Shows your ill logic quite nicely....

That's MY point. You raise and raise the tax rate, driving more and more employees, and employers into the shadow economy.

The economy does not function nearly as well in the shadows, for obvious reasons, than it does in the legitimate economy. When Bernie Sanders says he want to have free health care, and business to pay for it.... free education and the top 1% to pay for it.....

HELLO!?!?!?! Greece anyone?

You keep making my point for me. And then pathetically, acting like you made a great argument. That's funny.

Same is true in Venezuela. Tax rates, and regulations like price controls, have driven a ton of the economy into the shadows, with a massive black market. You complain that Venezuela nationalized oil companies, but even so, with that much oil produced, they could run oil burning electric generators to keep the lights no. But they can't. Their economy is so screwed up, they can't even pay people to use their own oil, to keep the power on. Everyone is leaving, or working in the black market.

 

[alpine]

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

And the problem didn't arise from private sector jobs and industry did it? It came from the pension system, and Greek government debt.

In fact, even after the first big crash, and austerity was put in place, private sector growth and employment was on the rise.

This latest crash wasn't from the Capitalist private sector, but rather the government once again screwing over the country.

And perhaps you could even say the private sector isn't as productive as it should be. Ok, I would agree with that. But it wasn't the private sector that imposed taxes and regulations on itself. It wasn't the private sector the imposed a minimum wage on itself. It was the private sector that imposed employment laws, and pension costs, and health care taxes on itself.

All of that is socialism. Social control over the private sector. That's why for 8 years, while the minimum wage was indexed to inflation and increasing every year, the employment rates were falling. The moment they cut the minimum wage, employment went up.

The more socialized they get, the worse off they are. The less socialized they are, the better off they get.

It is hilarious how you claim the "taxes", which most private sector in Greece did "NOT" pay and evaded in the first place (totaling to 37 bil euro, more than the pension cost to Greece), caused the failure of the state.

Shows your ill logic quite nicely....

That's MY point. You raise and raise the tax rate, driving more and more employees, and employers into the shadow economy.

The economy does not function nearly as well in the shadows, for obvious reasons, than it does in the legitimate economy. When Bernie Sanders says he want to have free health care, and business to pay for it.... free education and the top 1% to pay for it.....

HELLO!?!?!?! Greece anyone?

You keep making my point for me. And then pathetically, acting like you made a great argument. That's funny.

Same is true in Venezuela. Tax rates, and regulations like price controls, have driven a ton of the economy into the shadows, with a massive black market. You complain that Venezuela nationalized oil companies, but even so, with that much oil produced, they could run oil burning electric generators to keep the lights no. But they can't. Their economy is so screwed up, they can't even pay people to use their own oil, to keep the power on. Everyone is leaving, or working in the black market.

As Indicated before, Greece has less corp tax, compared to USA..........

With your logic, all corps in the USA should be evading tax, and it would be just natural.

I guess that shows your morality, more than anything..................

 

[Andylusion]

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

And the problem didn't arise from private sector jobs and industry did it? It came from the pension system, and Greek government debt.

In fact, even after the first big crash, and austerity was put in place, private sector growth and employment was on the rise.

This latest crash wasn't from the Capitalist private sector, but rather the government once again screwing over the country.

And perhaps you could even say the private sector isn't as productive as it should be. Ok, I would agree with that. But it wasn't the private sector that imposed taxes and regulations on itself. It wasn't the private sector the imposed a minimum wage on itself. It was the private sector that imposed employment laws, and pension costs, and health care taxes on itself.

All of that is socialism. Social control over the private sector. That's why for 8 years, while the minimum wage was indexed to inflation and increasing every year, the employment rates were falling. The moment they cut the minimum wage, employment went up.

The more socialized they get, the worse off they are. The less socialized they are, the better off they get.

It is hilarious how you claim the "taxes", which most private sector in Greece did "NOT" pay and evaded in the first place (totaling to 37 bil euro, more than the pension cost to Greece), caused the failure of the state.

Shows your ill logic quite nicely....

That's MY point. You raise and raise the tax rate, driving more and more employees, and employers into the shadow economy.

The economy does not function nearly as well in the shadows, for obvious reasons, than it does in the legitimate economy. When Bernie Sanders says he want to have free health care, and business to pay for it.... free education and the top 1% to pay for it.....

HELLO!?!?!?! Greece anyone?

You keep making my point for me. And then pathetically, acting like you made a great argument. That's funny.

Same is true in Venezuela. Tax rates, and regulations like price controls, have driven a ton of the economy into the shadows, with a massive black market. You complain that Venezuela nationalized oil companies, but even so, with that much oil produced, they could run oil burning electric generators to keep the lights no. But they can't. Their economy is so screwed up, they can't even pay people to use their own oil, to keep the power on. Everyone is leaving, or working in the black market.

As Indicated before, Greece has less corp tax, compared to USA..........

With your logic, all corps in the USA should be evading tax, and it would be just natural.

I guess that shows your morality, more than anything..................

Taxation, the theft of ones earnings, is immoral. That is what shows my morality.

Who do you think you are fooling? Greece corporate tax rates are lower? Are you a moron? Are you an idiot? What the heck is your problem? You intentionally being stupid? Or is this just a natural absolute mental deficiency on your part?

If corporate tax was the only tax on the planet, then yeah, Greece would be an investors paradice.

Welcome to socialist reality stupid....

Reynolds says Greek taxes on labor and capital are “brutal.” And indeed they are. The corporate tax rate is 26%, the personal income tax rate is 46%, the sales tax — or value-added tax — is 23%, and the social security tax is 42.01%. No wonder Greeks avoid the tax man.
​

Greece makes US taxes look like a paradise. And even then, it's not taxes alone that cause all the problems. Regulations drive investors away, and business out of the country.

"Red Tape, X-Rays and 'Speed Tax'? It's Business in Greece" by Daley, Suzanne - International Herald Tribune, March 16, 2012 | Online Research Library: Questia

It took 10 months of crisscrossing the city to collect dozens of forms and stamps of approval, including proof that he was up to date on his pension contributions, before he could get started. But that was not enough. In perhaps the strangest twist of all, his shareholders were required by the Health Department to submit to lung X-rays and stool samples.

Before the banks would agree to act as a clearinghouse for credit cards, they insisted that portions of the OliveShop's Web site, including the company's marketing and privacy policies, be written exclusively in Greek, no matter how hard Mr. Antonopoulos tried to explain that his customers would not understand Greek.

"We kept trying to tell them that the idea was to export -- that customers might be Chinese and they wouldn't understand," he said, throwing up his hands. "It was useless."
​

By the way, most banks are owned by the Greek government.

So what have we learned, socialist regulations and controls, supposedly to help prevent the evil corporations from harming citizens, results in citizens not having jobs.

"Oh but corporate tax is lower!" Blaw blaw blaw blaw... Only an idiot looks at a train wreck and goes... "Dur yeah, but wreck trains emit less carbon!". Morons. You are a moron.

 

[alpine]

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

And the problem didn't arise from private sector jobs and industry did it? It came from the pension system, and Greek government debt.

In fact, even after the first big crash, and austerity was put in place, private sector growth and employment was on the rise.

This latest crash wasn't from the Capitalist private sector, but rather the government once again screwing over the country.

And perhaps you could even say the private sector isn't as productive as it should be. Ok, I would agree with that. But it wasn't the private sector that imposed taxes and regulations on itself. It wasn't the private sector the imposed a minimum wage on itself. It was the private sector that imposed employment laws, and pension costs, and health care taxes on itself.

All of that is socialism. Social control over the private sector. That's why for 8 years, while the minimum wage was indexed to inflation and increasing every year, the employment rates were falling. The moment they cut the minimum wage, employment went up.

The more socialized they get, the worse off they are. The less socialized they are, the better off they get.

It is hilarious how you claim the "taxes", which most private sector in Greece did "NOT" pay and evaded in the first place (totaling to 37 bil euro, more than the pension cost to Greece), caused the failure of the state.

Shows your ill logic quite nicely....

That's MY point. You raise and raise the tax rate, driving more and more employees, and employers into the shadow economy.

The economy does not function nearly as well in the shadows, for obvious reasons, than it does in the legitimate economy. When Bernie Sanders says he want to have free health care, and business to pay for it.... free education and the top 1% to pay for it.....

HELLO!?!?!?! Greece anyone?

You keep making my point for me. And then pathetically, acting like you made a great argument. That's funny.

Same is true in Venezuela. Tax rates, and regulations like price controls, have driven a ton of the economy into the shadows, with a massive black market. You complain that Venezuela nationalized oil companies, but even so, with that much oil produced, they could run oil burning electric generators to keep the lights no. But they can't. Their economy is so screwed up, they can't even pay people to use their own oil, to keep the power on. Everyone is leaving, or working in the black market.

As Indicated before, Greece has less corp tax, compared to USA..........

With your logic, all corps in the USA should be evading tax, and it would be just natural.

I guess that shows your morality, more than anything..................

Taxation, the theft of ones earnings, is immoral. That is what shows my morality.

Who do you think you are fooling? Greece corporate tax rates are lower? Are you a moron? Are you an idiot? What the heck is your problem? You intentionally being stupid? Or is this just a natural absolute mental deficiency on your part?

If corporate tax was the only tax on the planet, then yeah, Greece would be an investors paradice.

Welcome to socialist reality stupid....

Reynolds says Greek taxes on labor and capital are “brutal.” And indeed they are. The corporate tax rate is 26%, the personal income tax rate is 46%, the sales tax — or value-added tax — is 23%, and the social security tax is 42.01%. No wonder Greeks avoid the tax man.
​

Greece makes US taxes look like a paradise. And even then, it's not taxes alone that cause all the problems. Regulations drive investors away, and business out of the country.

"Red Tape, X-Rays and 'Speed Tax'? It's Business in Greece" by Daley, Suzanne - International Herald Tribune, March 16, 2012 | Online Research Library: Questia

It took 10 months of crisscrossing the city to collect dozens of forms and stamps of approval, including proof that he was up to date on his pension contributions, before he could get started. But that was not enough. In perhaps the strangest twist of all, his shareholders were required by the Health Department to submit to lung X-rays and stool samples.

Before the banks would agree to act as a clearinghouse for credit cards, they insisted that portions of the OliveShop's Web site, including the company's marketing and privacy policies, be written exclusively in Greek, no matter how hard Mr. Antonopoulos tried to explain that his customers would not understand Greek.

"We kept trying to tell them that the idea was to export -- that customers might be Chinese and they wouldn't understand," he said, throwing up his hands. "It was useless."
​

By the way, most banks are owned by the Greek government.

So what have we learned, socialist regulations and controls, supposedly to help prevent the evil corporations from harming citizens, results in citizens not having jobs.

"Oh but corporate tax is lower!" Blaw blaw blaw blaw... Only an idiot looks at a train wreck and goes... "Dur yeah, but wreck trains emit less carbon!". Morons. You are a moron.

No, this is not about TAX...



This is about morality.

Morality is some set of rules, that make it possible for people to be able live together in harmony. If a society lacks of it, then it becomes corrupt, then it "collapse". Just like in Greece.

The base of morality is the belief that some common set of rules do in fact exist, and that it will protect the society from corruption. More people believe that, more people are moral, therefore the society will be more moral, therefore it will corrupt less.

The basic moral rule in this country is; Rule of Law.

Because a Constitution, which pretty much what makes this country possible as it is today, and in the past, and in the future; can not be created, without it.

And if the tax is the law
You respect the law

Because you have all the means of democracy to change the law, if you didn't like it...

If you cant change the law

You ******* RESPECT the law.............




Here is your UNITED STATES of AMERICA citizenship class for today.............................................................................




God bless AMERICA........

 

[Rozman]

I wonder who is moving to bail these guys out?
And what happened with Puerto Rico?
Have they gone belly up yet?...

 

[bripat9643]

That's a joke, right? Because Venezuela's problem is not falling oil revenue (although that is a problem). Their problem is a socialist command economy.

You are ignorant. Venezuela does not have a command economy.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World Factbook

Yes it does. All prices are set by the government. All wages are set by the government. What to produce and how much to produce is set by the government, even though it's rules are pure fantasy.

 

[JimBowie1958]

That's a joke, right? Because Venezuela's problem is not falling oil revenue (although that is a problem). Their problem is a socialist command economy.

You are ignorant. Venezuela does not have a command economy.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World Factbook

Yes it does. All prices are set by the government. All wages are set by the government. What to produce and how much to produce is set by the government, even though it's rules are pure fantasy.

So by your definition when Nixon set wage and price controls we had a command economy?

No, that is as silly as saying that Sanders is a communist.

 

[bripat9643]

That's a joke, right? Because Venezuela's problem is not falling oil revenue (although that is a problem). Their problem is a socialist command economy.

You are ignorant. Venezuela does not have a command economy.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World Factbook

Yes it does. All prices are set by the government. All wages are set by the government. What to produce and how much to produce is set by the government, even though it's rules are pure fantasy.

So by your definition when Nixon set wage and price controls we had a command economy?

No, that is as silly as saying that Sanders is a communist.

We made a big move in that direction. Nixon's wage/price controls quickly became a joke and were abandoned. Enforcing them would have turned us into Venezuela.

 

[JimBowie1958]

That's a joke, right? Because Venezuela's problem is not falling oil revenue (although that is a problem). Their problem is a socialist command economy.

You are ignorant. Venezuela does not have a command economy.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World Factbook

Yes it does. All prices are set by the government. All wages are set by the government. What to produce and how much to produce is set by the government, even though it's rules are pure fantasy.

So by your definition when Nixon set wage and price controls we had a command economy?

No, that is as silly as saying that Sanders is a communist.

We made a big move in that direction. Nixon's wage/price controls quickly became a joke and were abandoned. Enforcing them would have turned us into Venezuela.

But that still would not be a command economy which has the government owning ALL sources of production.


Planned economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Planned economies are held in contrast with command economies, where a planned economy is "an economic system in which the government controls and regulates production, distribution, prices, etc."[4] but a command economy, while also having this type of regulation, necessarily has substantial public ownership of industry.[5] Therefore, command economies are planned economies, but not necessarily the reverse.

Whereas most of the economy is organized in a top-down administrative model by a central authority, where decisions regarding investment and production output requirements are decided upon at the top in the chain of command, with little input from lower levels. Advocates of economic planning have sometimes been staunch critics of these command economies. For example,Leon Trotsky believed that those at the top of the chain of command, regardless of their intellectual capacity, operated without the input and participation of the millions of people who participate in the economy and understand/respond to local conditions and changes in the economy, and therefore would be unable to effectively coordinate all economic activity.[6]

Although planned economies have historically been associated with Marxist-Leninist states and the Soviet economic model, some argue that the Soviet economic model did not actually constitute a planned economy in that a comprehensive and binding plan did not guide production and investment; therefore the further distinction of an administrative command economy emerged as a more accurate designation for the economic system that existed in the formerSoviet Union and Eastern bloc, highlighting the role of centralized hierarchical decision-making in the absence of popular control over the economy.[7] The possibility of a digital planned economy was explored by Chile with the creation ofProject Cybersyn.

Another key difference is that command economies are usually authoritarian in nature, whereas economic planning in general can be either participatory and democratic or authoritarian. Indicative planning is a form of planning in market economies that directs the economy through incentive-based methods. Economic planning can be practiced in a decentralized manner through different government authorities. For example, in some predominately market-oriented and mixed economies, the state utilizes economic planning in strategic industries such as the aerospace industry. Mixed economies usually employ macroeconomic planning, while micro-economic affairs are left to the market and price system.

Another example of this is the utilization of dirigisme, or government direction of the economy through non coercive means, both of which were practiced in France and Great Britain after the Second World War. Swedish public housing models were planned by the government in a similar fashion as urban planning in a project called Million Programme.

 

[Clementine]

Socialism turns to anarchy in Venezuela...

Scenes From The Venezuela Apocalypse: "Countless Wounded" After 5,000 Loot Supermarket Looking For Food
5/13/2016 - Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Last night we showed what Caracas, looks like this week:

As we wrote then these are simply hungry Venezuelans protesting that their children are dying from lack of food and medicine and that they do not have enough water or electricity. As AgainstCronyCapitalism added, this is a country with more oil than Saudi Arabia, and the government has stolen all the money and now they bottleneck peaceful protesters and threaten them with bombs (or haul them to prison and torture them). As pure desperation has set in, crime has becomes inevitable. A man accused of mugging people in the streets of Caracas was surrounded by a mob of onlookers, beaten and set on fire, who published a pixeled-out but still graphic video of the man burning as mob justice is now the supreme arbiter of who lives and who dies:

"Roberto Fuentes Bernal, 42, was reportedly caught trying to mug passersby in the Venezuelan capital, and before police arrived at the scene, the crowd took the law into their own hands." The video can be seen here. Now, in the latest shocking development, Venezuela saw a new wave of looting this week that resulted in at least two deaths, countless wounded, and millions of dollars in losses and damages. According to Panampost, on Wednesday morning, a crowd sacked the Maracay Wholesale Market in the central region of Venezuela. According to the testimonies of merchants, the endless food lines that Venezuelans have been enduring to do groceries could not be organized that day.

As time went by, desperate Venezuelans grew anxious over not being able to buy food. Then they started jumping over the gates and stormed the supermarket. "They took milk, pasta, flour, oil, and milk powder. There were 5,000 people" one witness told Venezuela outlet El Estímulo. People from across the entire state came to the supermarket because there were rumors that some products not found anywhere else would be sold there. As a result of the massive crowd, the authorities were unable to preserve the peace. "There were 250 people for each National Guard officer… lots of people and few soldiers. At least one officer was beat up because he tried to stop the crowd,” another source told El Estímulo. Other food dispensaries run by the government were also looted by the people. Far from the promised socialist paradise, as the massive group of people moved, an entrance gate collapsed under the weight of the crowd, leaving several wounded.

MORE

Yup, and this is another socialist country with empty shelves

Ops, shit, sorry, this is capitalist Greece...

People who have never left their comfort bubble, commenting on the events around the world,
entertaining for sure....

Greece's socialist policies did this, not capitalism. They likely engaged in crony capitalism, same as the idiots in Washington.

 

[blastoff]

Berniezuela is imploding. Como se dice en Espanol...ain't no such thing as a free lunch, dumbasses!

 

[Manonthestreet]

Dying Infants and No Medicine: Inside Venezuela’s Failing Hospitals http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/16/w...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[The Rabbi]

That's a joke, right? Because Venezuela's problem is not falling oil revenue (although that is a problem). Their problem is a socialist command economy.

You are ignorant. Venezuela does not have a command economy.

Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World Factbook

Yes it does. All prices are set by the government. All wages are set by the government. What to produce and how much to produce is set by the government, even though it's rules are pure fantasy.

So by your definition when Nixon set wage and price controls we had a command economy?

No, that is as silly as saying that Sanders is a communist.

We made a big move in that direction. Nixon's wage/price controls quickly became a joke and were abandoned. Enforcing them would have turned us into Venezuela.

But that still would not be a command economy which has the government owning ALL sources of production.


Planned economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Planned economies are held in contrast with command economies, where a planned economy is "an economic system in which the government controls and regulates production, distribution, prices, etc."[4] but a command economy, while also having this type of regulation, necessarily has substantial public ownership of industry.[5] Therefore, command economies are planned economies, but not necessarily the reverse.

Whereas most of the economy is organized in a top-down administrative model by a central authority, where decisions regarding investment and production output requirements are decided upon at the top in the chain of command, with little input from lower levels. Advocates of economic planning have sometimes been staunch critics of these command economies. For example,Leon Trotsky believed that those at the top of the chain of command, regardless of their intellectual capacity, operated without the input and participation of the millions of people who participate in the economy and understand/respond to local conditions and changes in the economy, and therefore would be unable to effectively coordinate all economic activity.[6]

Although planned economies have historically been associated with Marxist-Leninist states and the Soviet economic model, some argue that the Soviet economic model did not actually constitute a planned economy in that a comprehensive and binding plan did not guide production and investment; therefore the further distinction of an administrative command economy emerged as a more accurate designation for the economic system that existed in the formerSoviet Union and Eastern bloc, highlighting the role of centralized hierarchical decision-making in the absence of popular control over the economy.[7] The possibility of a digital planned economy was explored by Chile with the creation ofProject Cybersyn.

Another key difference is that command economies are usually authoritarian in nature, whereas economic planning in general can be either participatory and democratic or authoritarian. Indicative planning is a form of planning in market economies that directs the economy through incentive-based methods. Economic planning can be practiced in a decentralized manner through different government authorities. For example, in some predominately market-oriented and mixed economies, the state utilizes economic planning in strategic industries such as the aerospace industry. Mixed economies usually employ macroeconomic planning, while micro-economic affairs are left to the market and price system.

Another example of this is the utilization of dirigisme, or government direction of the economy through non coercive means, both of which were practiced in France and Great Britain after the Second World War. Swedish public housing models were planned by the government in a similar fashion as urban planning in a project called Million Programme.

quibble quibble.
Socialism brings nothing but poverty,misery and death anywhere it is tried.

 

[Andylusion]

And the problem didn't arise from private sector jobs and industry did it? It came from the pension system, and Greek government debt.

In fact, even after the first big crash, and austerity was put in place, private sector growth and employment was on the rise.

This latest crash wasn't from the Capitalist private sector, but rather the government once again screwing over the country.

And perhaps you could even say the private sector isn't as productive as it should be. Ok, I would agree with that. But it wasn't the private sector that imposed taxes and regulations on itself. It wasn't the private sector the imposed a minimum wage on itself. It was the private sector that imposed employment laws, and pension costs, and health care taxes on itself.

All of that is socialism. Social control over the private sector. That's why for 8 years, while the minimum wage was indexed to inflation and increasing every year, the employment rates were falling. The moment they cut the minimum wage, employment went up.

The more socialized they get, the worse off they are. The less socialized they are, the better off they get.

It is hilarious how you claim the "taxes", which most private sector in Greece did "NOT" pay and evaded in the first place (totaling to 37 bil euro, more than the pension cost to Greece), caused the failure of the state.

Shows your ill logic quite nicely....

That's MY point. You raise and raise the tax rate, driving more and more employees, and employers into the shadow economy.

The economy does not function nearly as well in the shadows, for obvious reasons, than it does in the legitimate economy. When Bernie Sanders says he want to have free health care, and business to pay for it.... free education and the top 1% to pay for it.....

HELLO!?!?!?! Greece anyone?

You keep making my point for me. And then pathetically, acting like you made a great argument. That's funny.

Same is true in Venezuela. Tax rates, and regulations like price controls, have driven a ton of the economy into the shadows, with a massive black market. You complain that Venezuela nationalized oil companies, but even so, with that much oil produced, they could run oil burning electric generators to keep the lights no. But they can't. Their economy is so screwed up, they can't even pay people to use their own oil, to keep the power on. Everyone is leaving, or working in the black market.

As Indicated before, Greece has less corp tax, compared to USA..........

With your logic, all corps in the USA should be evading tax, and it would be just natural.

I guess that shows your morality, more than anything..................

Taxation, the theft of ones earnings, is immoral. That is what shows my morality.

Who do you think you are fooling? Greece corporate tax rates are lower? Are you a moron? Are you an idiot? What the heck is your problem? You intentionally being stupid? Or is this just a natural absolute mental deficiency on your part?

If corporate tax was the only tax on the planet, then yeah, Greece would be an investors paradice.

Welcome to socialist reality stupid....

Reynolds says Greek taxes on labor and capital are “brutal.” And indeed they are. The corporate tax rate is 26%, the personal income tax rate is 46%, the sales tax — or value-added tax — is 23%, and the social security tax is 42.01%. No wonder Greeks avoid the tax man.
​

Greece makes US taxes look like a paradise. And even then, it's not taxes alone that cause all the problems. Regulations drive investors away, and business out of the country.

"Red Tape, X-Rays and 'Speed Tax'? It's Business in Greece" by Daley, Suzanne - International Herald Tribune, March 16, 2012 | Online Research Library: Questia

It took 10 months of crisscrossing the city to collect dozens of forms and stamps of approval, including proof that he was up to date on his pension contributions, before he could get started. But that was not enough. In perhaps the strangest twist of all, his shareholders were required by the Health Department to submit to lung X-rays and stool samples.

Before the banks would agree to act as a clearinghouse for credit cards, they insisted that portions of the OliveShop's Web site, including the company's marketing and privacy policies, be written exclusively in Greek, no matter how hard Mr. Antonopoulos tried to explain that his customers would not understand Greek.

"We kept trying to tell them that the idea was to export -- that customers might be Chinese and they wouldn't understand," he said, throwing up his hands. "It was useless."
​

By the way, most banks are owned by the Greek government.

So what have we learned, socialist regulations and controls, supposedly to help prevent the evil corporations from harming citizens, results in citizens not having jobs.

"Oh but corporate tax is lower!" Blaw blaw blaw blaw... Only an idiot looks at a train wreck and goes... "Dur yeah, but wreck trains emit less carbon!". Morons. You are a moron.

No, this is not about TAX...
This is about morality.

Morality is some set of rules, that make it possible for people to be able live together in harmony. If a society lacks of it, then it becomes corrupt, then it "collapse". Just like in Greece.

The base of morality is the belief that some common set of rules do in fact exist, and that it will protect the society from corruption. More people believe that, more people are moral, therefore the society will be more moral, therefore it will corrupt less.

The basic moral rule in this country is; Rule of Law.

Because a Constitution, which pretty much what makes this country possible as it is today, and in the past, and in the future; can not be created, without it.

And if the tax is the law
You respect the law

Because you have all the means of democracy to change the law, if you didn't like it...

If you cant change the law

You ******* RESPECT the law.............




Here is your UNITED STATES of AMERICA citizenship class for today.............................................................................




God bless AMERICA........

That's totally wrong. Everything you said was wrong. Morality is not the same as laws.

Morality is something above the law. We know this, because if you really believe that Morality and rules are the same, then there was nothing wrong with slavery. There was nothing wrong with abusing wives. There was nothing wrong with confiscating the land of poor people, for public interest.

All of these things we consider morally wrong, even though they were legally right.

Morals and rules are not the same.

Taking people's rightfully earned money, is morally wrong. Legally it's fine.

When you impose morally wrong laws on people, you end up with black markets, and people paid under the table, and shadow economies.

This is what you people on the left never get about your "socialist democracy" crap. Just because you vote for it, doesn't mean it's right. Anymore than people voting to impose slavery would mean it's right.

When you take people's money, and regulate their business, and control the economy... people are going to go into the black market.

That's a fact. You can be angry and bitter about the facts, but they are the facts.

Minimum wage fuels Germany's underground economy | Business | DW.COM | 03.02.2015

Germany for the fist time in history, imposed a minimum wage just last year 2015. Now this year, for the first time in almost a decade, the shadow economy is growing.

Same thing that happened in Greece. The German regulations and controls and taxes, are not nearly as bad as Greece, and so the effect isn't nearly as dramatic as Greece.

But it is exactly as I said before. Every baby step towards Socialism, has bad results. Big steps, big bad results. Every move away from Socialism has good results.

You can get angry, stomp your feet, and scream about how YOU think it's morally wrong... but the facts are the facts. You either learn from the facts, and accept the facts... or remain a bitter angry person. Your choice. Because reality isn't changing just because you don't like it.

 

[alpine]

It is hilarious how you claim the "taxes", which most private sector in Greece did "NOT" pay and evaded in the first place (totaling to 37 bil euro, more than the pension cost to Greece), caused the failure of the state.

Shows your ill logic quite nicely....

That's MY point. You raise and raise the tax rate, driving more and more employees, and employers into the shadow economy.

The economy does not function nearly as well in the shadows, for obvious reasons, than it does in the legitimate economy. When Bernie Sanders says he want to have free health care, and business to pay for it.... free education and the top 1% to pay for it.....

HELLO!?!?!?! Greece anyone?

You keep making my point for me. And then pathetically, acting like you made a great argument. That's funny.

Same is true in Venezuela. Tax rates, and regulations like price controls, have driven a ton of the economy into the shadows, with a massive black market. You complain that Venezuela nationalized oil companies, but even so, with that much oil produced, they could run oil burning electric generators to keep the lights no. But they can't. Their economy is so screwed up, they can't even pay people to use their own oil, to keep the power on. Everyone is leaving, or working in the black market.

As Indicated before, Greece has less corp tax, compared to USA..........

With your logic, all corps in the USA should be evading tax, and it would be just natural.

I guess that shows your morality, more than anything..................

Taxation, the theft of ones earnings, is immoral. That is what shows my morality.

Who do you think you are fooling? Greece corporate tax rates are lower? Are you a moron? Are you an idiot? What the heck is your problem? You intentionally being stupid? Or is this just a natural absolute mental deficiency on your part?

If corporate tax was the only tax on the planet, then yeah, Greece would be an investors paradice.

Welcome to socialist reality stupid....

Reynolds says Greek taxes on labor and capital are “brutal.” And indeed they are. The corporate tax rate is 26%, the personal income tax rate is 46%, the sales tax — or value-added tax — is 23%, and the social security tax is 42.01%. No wonder Greeks avoid the tax man.
​

Greece makes US taxes look like a paradise. And even then, it's not taxes alone that cause all the problems. Regulations drive investors away, and business out of the country.

"Red Tape, X-Rays and 'Speed Tax'? It's Business in Greece" by Daley, Suzanne - International Herald Tribune, March 16, 2012 | Online Research Library: Questia

It took 10 months of crisscrossing the city to collect dozens of forms and stamps of approval, including proof that he was up to date on his pension contributions, before he could get started. But that was not enough. In perhaps the strangest twist of all, his shareholders were required by the Health Department to submit to lung X-rays and stool samples.

Before the banks would agree to act as a clearinghouse for credit cards, they insisted that portions of the OliveShop's Web site, including the company's marketing and privacy policies, be written exclusively in Greek, no matter how hard Mr. Antonopoulos tried to explain that his customers would not understand Greek.

"We kept trying to tell them that the idea was to export -- that customers might be Chinese and they wouldn't understand," he said, throwing up his hands. "It was useless."
​

By the way, most banks are owned by the Greek government.

So what have we learned, socialist regulations and controls, supposedly to help prevent the evil corporations from harming citizens, results in citizens not having jobs.

"Oh but corporate tax is lower!" Blaw blaw blaw blaw... Only an idiot looks at a train wreck and goes... "Dur yeah, but wreck trains emit less carbon!". Morons. You are a moron.

No, this is not about TAX...
This is about morality.

Morality is some set of rules, that make it possible for people to be able live together in harmony. If a society lacks of it, then it becomes corrupt, then it "collapse". Just like in Greece.

The base of morality is the belief that some common set of rules do in fact exist, and that it will protect the society from corruption. More people believe that, more people are moral, therefore the society will be more moral, therefore it will corrupt less.

The basic moral rule in this country is; Rule of Law.

Because a Constitution, which pretty much what makes this country possible as it is today, and in the past, and in the future; can not be created, without it.

And if the tax is the law
You respect the law

Because you have all the means of democracy to change the law, if you didn't like it...

If you cant change the law

You ******* RESPECT the law.............




Here is your UNITED STATES of AMERICA citizenship class for today.............................................................................




God bless AMERICA........

That's totally wrong. Everything you said was wrong. Morality is not the same as laws.

Morality is something above the law. We know this, because if you really believe that Morality and rules are the same, then there was nothing wrong with slavery. There was nothing wrong with abusing wives. There was nothing wrong with confiscating the land of poor people, for public interest.

All of these things we consider morally wrong, even though they were legally right.

Morals and rules are not the same.

Taking people's rightfully earned money, is morally wrong. Legally it's fine.

When you impose morally wrong laws on people, you end up with black markets, and people paid under the table, and shadow economies.

This is what you people on the left never get about your "socialist democracy" crap. Just because you vote for it, doesn't mean it's right. Anymore than people voting to impose slavery would mean it's right.

When you take people's money, and regulate their business, and control the economy... people are going to go into the black market.

That's a fact. You can be angry and bitter about the facts, but they are the facts.

Minimum wage fuels Germany's underground economy | Business | DW.COM | 03.02.2015

Germany for the fist time in history, imposed a minimum wage just last year 2015. Now this year, for the first time in almost a decade, the shadow economy is growing.

Same thing that happened in Greece. The German regulations and controls and taxes, are not nearly as bad as Greece, and so the effect isn't nearly as dramatic as Greece.

But it is exactly as I said before. Every baby step towards Socialism, has bad results. Big steps, big bad results. Every move away from Socialism has good results.

You can get angry, stomp your feet, and scream about how YOU think it's morally wrong... but the facts are the facts. You either learn from the facts, and accept the facts... or remain a bitter angry person. Your choice. Because reality isn't changing just because you don't like it.

You make no sense


When people in a democratic country, like the United States of America, agree on a law, everybody expected to respect the law.

I didnt say morality is the same as the law, but that its rule is: rule of law, which means, you are expected to respect the law.

So the most basic and most important morality in this country is; respect the law

You may not like the law,
You can criticize the law,
You can try to change the law by many ways available to you,
this is a free democratic country,

but if you don't respect the law,
if you try to get around the law,
that makes you an un-American,
that makes you a criminal

Are you an un-American?




Because if you are, there are a lot of other countries that you don't have to respect anything what so ever, like GREECE.

Ever considered moving there?

Apparently nobody pays any tax over there, even tho its the law, perfect fit for you.........
And you claim the private sector is booming there too,
because they unlawfully avoided taxation,
why you still waiting?



God bless America!

 

[Katzndogz]

Socialism is only bad when it isn't done right. Bernie will get it right this time.

If he doesn't, at his age, he won't have to live with the results.

 

[asaratis]

We are not talking about SYRIZA Greece...

Empty shelves in Greece was not because Greece was a capitalist country,
nor because it turned into a semi socialist at some point.

You gotta understand the reasons why governments fail to provide their people a good future.

That's why I wanted the link, so I could see the specific story you were looking at, to figure out how you could possibly claim that Greece was "capitalist" or that Capitalism caused empty shelves.

Greece is the direct result of socialism. Borrowing and spending, and socialist projects. Running socialist policies like their pension system, which people warned about for decades. I've read articles dating back to the 1990s, before they even joined the Eurozone, where people were warning that the system was not sustainable.

And even the empty shelves in Greece, are not due to some economic policy.

They are due to the referendum. Greece just rejected the conditions of bailout from the EU again. The EU may simply dump Greece, and boot them from the EU. If that happens, prices on all imported goods will instantly jump.

It's comparable to people buying up gas or food before a hurricane hits the coast.

There is no economic policy directly causing a shortage of food in Greece. People are just buying up everything they can in preparation for disaster. There is no 'shortage' at all. Stores are not having any problems finding suppliers of food stuffs, currently.

In Venezuela.... totally different. There is in fact a direct shortage. The problem isn't people buying everything. The problem is there is nothing to buy. The socialized system of collective farms, has destroyed food production, and turned Venezuela from being an exporter of food across south America, to being a food importer. And due to import regulations, and socialist trade controls, stores can't import that much food.

Venezuela is starving to death, because their bad policies have destroyed production. Their communes haven't produced the utopia food production that they planned (which is moronic since Stalin tried the something, and it failed there too. No one learns anything from history).

Greece, is in trouble, because they have ruined their economy, and refuse to do what is required to get bailed out of their mistakes. So they are screwing themselves. And the people know it. That's why they are stock piling food, and clearing out stores.

Claiming Greece being a socialist country because of its pension system is like claiming Venezuela being a capitalist country because, well, Venezuelans have same haircut like Americans... It is not even funny... It is desperate...



Greek pensions aint nothing special compared to other eu countries, like Germany for instance. How come Germans are running their "socialist" pension system just fine, and German economy flourishing at the same time, but when you look at Greece, it is a different story.

But who cares, why look at the facts, right, it is always the poor pensioners, destroying Greece.
Ahh those old people, they should have been dead long ago, why they still alive, right???

Same mindless rhetoric...

Greece losing more money in tax evasion, which was supposed to be funding the pension system due to an aging population, than the cost of their whole pension system all together, yearly.

Not to mention all Greek farmers were on streets protesting, saying they were living on loans and the pension reform would cut their throat all together, bringing the capitalist "utopia" food production to an end in Greece...

And here is Greece, a CAPITALIST country, struggling just like a SOCIALIST Venezuela.

The question you should be asking, how come.
And the answer is not capitalism or socialism, it is; CORRUPTION...

Instead of arguing with your insults..... I'm just going to post some definitions, and let you determine which word you think fits.

View attachment 74946 View attachment 74945

Alrighty. So here is how we are defining a Capitalist system, and a Socialist system.

One is government control, and the other is private control.

Now which of those two definitions does the Greek Pension System fall under?

Would you consider the taxes, and payouts of the Greek Pension system to be a private ownership and control? Or a Social ownership and control?

Do you consider Pension systems around world to be Capitalist?

If not......... Then sir... I rest my case.

Lets do it your way;

Capitalism in your definition: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

In Greece, trade and industry are controlled by private owners, for profit, not by state.....

You can rest your case as much as you like now...

.

That is wrong. In Greece the gov't has tremendous control over companies. The WSJ had an article not long ago about a start up that wanted to sell olive oil products. Among the requirements to get a license, which took years to get btw, were stool samples from the proposed board of directors. Hello?

That's the GREEK style!