Obama Banning Bullets In ATF Regulation

[NYcarbineer]

It looks like the current administration is back to its old tricks of seeking backdoor gun control that will only affect law abiding gun owners. The ATF is apparently in the process of attempting to ban a popular type of 5.56mm round that is popular with AR-15 owners. Based on new proposed regulations, the ATF is essentially seeking a ban on the popular M855 round (aka “green tip”). The NRA-ILA weighed in on the measure:

Now, BATFE has released a “Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are ‘Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes’ Within the Meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(c)”, which would eliminate M855’s exemption to the armor piercing ammunition prohibition and make future exemptions nearly impossible.


By way of background, federal law imposed in 1986 prohibits the manufacture, importation, and sale by licensed manufacturers or importers, but not possession, of “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely . . . from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” Because there are handguns capable of firing M855, it “may be used in a handgun.” It does not, however, have a core made of the metals listed in the law; rather, it has a traditional lead core with a steel tip, and therefore should never have been considered “armor piercing.” Nonetheless, BATFE previously declared M855 to be “armor piercing ammunition,” but granted it an exemption as a projectile “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”.

Obama to ban green tip 5.56 ammo

Anyone who has spent time in the military and has been issued this ammo knows it has no armor piercing capabilities. That won't stop Obama from banning it or any other ammo he feels like banning in the future.

Just to play devil's advocate with some of the literalist constitutional types around here,

are bullets mentioned in the Constitution?

No. Whats yer point?

Then according to you, we can't possibly have the right to own them.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Correct. It's a military round which means it probably meets milspec requirements out to however far while still achieving how ever much armor piercing they demand to emet the specs. It's design though isn't intended for hunting or civilian applications. Plus, honestly, who uses a 22 for defense?

What is a civlian application? Most people shoot it at targets out to 300 yards or so. And a .22 going 3k fps sounds pretty nifty to me. Certainly has worked on a ton of bad guys.

SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming shoot-to-wound policy put their lives at risk Daily Mail Online

"SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming 'shoot-to-wound' policy put their lives at risk

* Bullets upgrade recommended in top-secret report on SAS operations
* Authors describe clashes with Taliban who ignore bullet wounds and carry on shooting

The rounds currently issued as standard to SAS troops for their rifles are 5.56 mm calibre. In future, the troopers will be given 7.62 mm rounds – which are almost twice as heavy and designed to kill with a single shot."

Only reason a 5.56mm round and weapons system exists is soldiers in Vietnam were such bad shots the M14s in use were running out of ammo. But the spectacular inefficiency of 5.56mm in antipersonnel applications is well-documented.

Thats total nonsense. Iv'e talked to dozens of guys who saw combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The 5.56 performed just fine.

M4 M16 and 5.65mm NATO cartridge A Disgrace
"The U.S. Military's M4 Carbine, M16 Rifle and 5.56mm NATO Cartridge:
A National Disgrace?"

The truth about the 5.56mm round
"There's been tons written on various discussion threads about this topic, and mountains more available online. The short version of the story (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise) is that 5.56mm is a highly effective killing round *when it strikes a target at sufficient speed to induce fragmentation.* That's the "multiple wound channels" stuff you're talking about. M193 is said by many to be a better round, in terms of fragmenting, but SS109 will also fragment and will more reliably penetrate body armor. If 5.56mm hits at speeds too low to ensure fragmentation (required speed varies by type of round -- a short search via Google should give hard numbers), it is basically a .22 round drilled into and perhaps through a target. In this case, lethality depends on hitting something vital like major arteries, brain/spine, lung(s) etc."

(note, above writing is from 2004)

The USA s M4 Carbine Controversies
"The M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. "

7.62 mm Versus 5.56 mm - Does NATO Really Need Two Standard
"Conclusion: The 5.56mm will, at best, only be an interim
NATO standard. Due to its small size, further improvements of
the 5.56mm will be insufficient to keep up with the changing
requirements of future battlefields. Overall, the older 7.62mm
NATO is a better standard cartridge since it has the capacity and
the flexibility to be significantly improved and thereby remain
effective.
V. Recommendations: The 7.62mm NATO cartridge should be
developed with current technology to improve its penetration,
lethality, and overall-performance."


Wanna use the 'crunchenticker' of the rifle world go ahead. I'll stick to what actually works best.

Opinions are like assholes. Most stink.
The 5.56mm round is the longest issued round in the US arsenal for regular infantry duty. (Yes, I know they still issue some M14s on 7.62 but thats not the military's standard battle round).

Wanna use "the longest issued round" or "the best performing round in actual combat?"

I rest my case.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Great move obozo. now only criminals, terrorists, and the government will have ammo.

what a fricken moron

Nonsense. There's plenty of 55gr FMJ out there that works just fine. Other weights and styles too.

I was making a general statement about obama and his gun/ammo control ideas. Yes, for now there is plenty of ammo available and I have a pretty good stock of everything that my guns use.

I'm down to around 4000 rounds. Purchases aren't keeping up with shooting time

From ar15.com "Best Rounds for Self-Defense"

".223 While the M855-type ammunition generally meets performance requirements, there have been quite a few reports in inadequate fragmentation. Please remember that this is military ammo, and while the fragmenting properties are well documented and understood, there is no requirement for the bullet to fragment when being tested for acceptance. There can be significant variations in constructions which could make some lots perform much worse than others. For this reason, it is not on the list. While the M193-type ammo is not nearly as complicated of a design, it is also not inherently as devastating as the heavier OTMs listed below. Since this article is about the BEST choices for self-defense ammunition, it is omitted also."
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

Wah wah Not even a "best choice for defense" round.

It isnt. The ammo frankly sucks. It makes for good milsurp shooting ammo. Thats about it.

Correct. It's a military round which means it probably meets milspec requirements out to however far while still achieving how ever much armor piercing they demand to emet the specs. It's design though isn't intended for hunting or civilian applications. Plus, honestly, who uses a 22 for defense?

What is a civlian application? Most people shoot it at targets out to 300 yards or so. And a .22 going 3k fps sounds pretty nifty to me. Certainly has worked on a ton of bad guys.

SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming shoot-to-wound policy put their lives at risk Daily Mail Online

"SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming 'shoot-to-wound' policy put their lives at risk

* Bullets upgrade recommended in top-secret report on SAS operations
* Authors describe clashes with Taliban who ignore bullet wounds and carry on shooting

The rounds currently issued as standard to SAS troops for their rifles are 5.56 mm calibre. In future, the troopers will be given 7.62 mm rounds – which are almost twice as heavy and designed to kill with a single shot."

Only reason a 5.56mm round and weapons system exists is soldiers in Vietnam were such bad shots the M14s in use were running out of ammo. But the spectacular inefficiency of 5.56mm in antipersonnel applications is well-documented.

Thats total nonsense. Iv'e talked to dozens of guys who saw combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The 5.56 performed just fine.

It isnt. The ammo frankly sucks. It makes for good milsurp shooting ammo. Thats about it.

Correct. It's a military round which means it probably meets milspec requirements out to however far while still achieving how ever much armor piercing they demand to emet the specs. It's design though isn't intended for hunting or civilian applications. Plus, honestly, who uses a 22 for defense?

What is a civlian application? Most people shoot it at targets out to 300 yards or so. And a .22 going 3k fps sounds pretty nifty to me. Certainly has worked on a ton of bad guys.

SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming shoot-to-wound policy put their lives at risk Daily Mail Online

"SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming 'shoot-to-wound' policy put their lives at risk

* Bullets upgrade recommended in top-secret report on SAS operations
* Authors describe clashes with Taliban who ignore bullet wounds and carry on shooting

The rounds currently issued as standard to SAS troops for their rifles are 5.56 mm calibre. In future, the troopers will be given 7.62 mm rounds – which are almost twice as heavy and designed to kill with a single shot."

Only reason a 5.56mm round and weapons system exists is soldiers in Vietnam were such bad shots the M14s in use were running out of ammo. But the spectacular inefficiency of 5.56mm in antipersonnel applications is well-documented.

Thats total nonsense. Iv'e talked to dozens of guys who saw combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The 5.56 performed just fine.

M4 M16 and 5.65mm NATO cartridge A Disgrace
"The U.S. Military's M4 Carbine, M16 Rifle and 5.56mm NATO Cartridge:
A National Disgrace?"

The truth about the 5.56mm round
"There's been tons written on various discussion threads about this topic, and mountains more available online. The short version of the story (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise) is that 5.56mm is a highly effective killing round *when it strikes a target at sufficient speed to induce fragmentation.* That's the "multiple wound channels" stuff you're talking about. M193 is said by many to be a better round, in terms of fragmenting, but SS109 will also fragment and will more reliably penetrate body armor. If 5.56mm hits at speeds too low to ensure fragmentation (required speed varies by type of round -- a short search via Google should give hard numbers), it is basically a .22 round drilled into and perhaps through a target. In this case, lethality depends on hitting something vital like major arteries, brain/spine, lung(s) etc."

(note, above writing is from 2004)

The USA s M4 Carbine Controversies
"The M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. "

7.62 mm Versus 5.56 mm - Does NATO Really Need Two Standard
"Conclusion: The 5.56mm will, at best, only be an interim
NATO standard. Due to its small size, further improvements of
the 5.56mm will be insufficient to keep up with the changing
requirements of future battlefields. Overall, the older 7.62mm
NATO is a better standard cartridge since it has the capacity and
the flexibility to be significantly improved and thereby remain
effective.
V. Recommendations: The 7.62mm NATO cartridge should be
developed with current technology to improve its penetration,
lethality, and overall-performance."


Wanna use the 'crunchenticker' of the rifle world go ahead. I'll stick to what actually works best.

Chris Kyle wrote an article talking about the 5.56 and he and his buddies came to the conclusion that it isn't the round but the slug that needs changing.
Up it to a 75gr and you have your man killer. In fact they used em to deer hunt with.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

What is a civlian application? Most people shoot it at targets out to 300 yards or so. And a .22 going 3k fps sounds pretty nifty to me. Certainly has worked on a ton of bad guys.

SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming shoot-to-wound policy put their lives at risk Daily Mail Online

"SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming 'shoot-to-wound' policy put their lives at risk

* Bullets upgrade recommended in top-secret report on SAS operations
* Authors describe clashes with Taliban who ignore bullet wounds and carry on shooting

The rounds currently issued as standard to SAS troops for their rifles are 5.56 mm calibre. In future, the troopers will be given 7.62 mm rounds – which are almost twice as heavy and designed to kill with a single shot."

Only reason a 5.56mm round and weapons system exists is soldiers in Vietnam were such bad shots the M14s in use were running out of ammo. But the spectacular inefficiency of 5.56mm in antipersonnel applications is well-documented.

Thats total nonsense. Iv'e talked to dozens of guys who saw combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The 5.56 performed just fine.

M4 M16 and 5.65mm NATO cartridge A Disgrace
"The U.S. Military's M4 Carbine, M16 Rifle and 5.56mm NATO Cartridge:
A National Disgrace?"

The truth about the 5.56mm round
"There's been tons written on various discussion threads about this topic, and mountains more available online. The short version of the story (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise) is that 5.56mm is a highly effective killing round *when it strikes a target at sufficient speed to induce fragmentation.* That's the "multiple wound channels" stuff you're talking about. M193 is said by many to be a better round, in terms of fragmenting, but SS109 will also fragment and will more reliably penetrate body armor. If 5.56mm hits at speeds too low to ensure fragmentation (required speed varies by type of round -- a short search via Google should give hard numbers), it is basically a .22 round drilled into and perhaps through a target. In this case, lethality depends on hitting something vital like major arteries, brain/spine, lung(s) etc."

(note, above writing is from 2004)

The USA s M4 Carbine Controversies
"The M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. "

7.62 mm Versus 5.56 mm - Does NATO Really Need Two Standard
"Conclusion: The 5.56mm will, at best, only be an interim
NATO standard. Due to its small size, further improvements of
the 5.56mm will be insufficient to keep up with the changing
requirements of future battlefields. Overall, the older 7.62mm
NATO is a better standard cartridge since it has the capacity and
the flexibility to be significantly improved and thereby remain
effective.
V. Recommendations: The 7.62mm NATO cartridge should be
developed with current technology to improve its penetration,
lethality, and overall-performance."


Wanna use the 'crunchenticker' of the rifle world go ahead. I'll stick to what actually works best.

Opinions are like assholes. Most stink.
The 5.56mm round is the longest issued round in the US arsenal for regular infantry duty. (Yes, I know they still issue some M14s on 7.62 but thats not the military's standard battle round).

Wanna use "the longest issued round" or "the best performing round in actual combat?"

I rest my case.

The whole idea of the 5.56 is you can carry far more ammo.
And all you really need is one to take the fight out of someone.

 

[The Rabbi]

It looks like the current administration is back to its old tricks of seeking backdoor gun control that will only affect law abiding gun owners. The ATF is apparently in the process of attempting to ban a popular type of 5.56mm round that is popular with AR-15 owners. Based on new proposed regulations, the ATF is essentially seeking a ban on the popular M855 round (aka “green tip”). The NRA-ILA weighed in on the measure:

Now, BATFE has released a “Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are ‘Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes’ Within the Meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(c)”, which would eliminate M855’s exemption to the armor piercing ammunition prohibition and make future exemptions nearly impossible.


By way of background, federal law imposed in 1986 prohibits the manufacture, importation, and sale by licensed manufacturers or importers, but not possession, of “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely . . . from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” Because there are handguns capable of firing M855, it “may be used in a handgun.” It does not, however, have a core made of the metals listed in the law; rather, it has a traditional lead core with a steel tip, and therefore should never have been considered “armor piercing.” Nonetheless, BATFE previously declared M855 to be “armor piercing ammunition,” but granted it an exemption as a projectile “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”.

Obama to ban green tip 5.56 ammo

Anyone who has spent time in the military and has been issued this ammo knows it has no armor piercing capabilities. That won't stop Obama from banning it or any other ammo he feels like banning in the future.

Just to play devil's advocate with some of the literalist constitutional types around here,

are bullets mentioned in the Constitution?

No. Whats yer point?

Then according to you, we can't possibly have the right to own them.

Mayb you dont have a right to own them.
Are TVs mentioned in the Constitution? Maybe you dont have a right to own those either.
Dumbshit. Go play your sopjhomore word games elsewhere.

 

[The Rabbi]

What is a civlian application? Most people shoot it at targets out to 300 yards or so. And a .22 going 3k fps sounds pretty nifty to me. Certainly has worked on a ton of bad guys.

SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming shoot-to-wound policy put their lives at risk Daily Mail Online

"SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming 'shoot-to-wound' policy put their lives at risk

* Bullets upgrade recommended in top-secret report on SAS operations
* Authors describe clashes with Taliban who ignore bullet wounds and carry on shooting

The rounds currently issued as standard to SAS troops for their rifles are 5.56 mm calibre. In future, the troopers will be given 7.62 mm rounds – which are almost twice as heavy and designed to kill with a single shot."

Only reason a 5.56mm round and weapons system exists is soldiers in Vietnam were such bad shots the M14s in use were running out of ammo. But the spectacular inefficiency of 5.56mm in antipersonnel applications is well-documented.

Thats total nonsense. Iv'e talked to dozens of guys who saw combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The 5.56 performed just fine.

M4 M16 and 5.65mm NATO cartridge A Disgrace
"The U.S. Military's M4 Carbine, M16 Rifle and 5.56mm NATO Cartridge:
A National Disgrace?"

The truth about the 5.56mm round
"There's been tons written on various discussion threads about this topic, and mountains more available online. The short version of the story (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise) is that 5.56mm is a highly effective killing round *when it strikes a target at sufficient speed to induce fragmentation.* That's the "multiple wound channels" stuff you're talking about. M193 is said by many to be a better round, in terms of fragmenting, but SS109 will also fragment and will more reliably penetrate body armor. If 5.56mm hits at speeds too low to ensure fragmentation (required speed varies by type of round -- a short search via Google should give hard numbers), it is basically a .22 round drilled into and perhaps through a target. In this case, lethality depends on hitting something vital like major arteries, brain/spine, lung(s) etc."

(note, above writing is from 2004)

The USA s M4 Carbine Controversies
"The M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. "

7.62 mm Versus 5.56 mm - Does NATO Really Need Two Standard
"Conclusion: The 5.56mm will, at best, only be an interim
NATO standard. Due to its small size, further improvements of
the 5.56mm will be insufficient to keep up with the changing
requirements of future battlefields. Overall, the older 7.62mm
NATO is a better standard cartridge since it has the capacity and
the flexibility to be significantly improved and thereby remain
effective.
V. Recommendations: The 7.62mm NATO cartridge should be
developed with current technology to improve its penetration,
lethality, and overall-performance."


Wanna use the 'crunchenticker' of the rifle world go ahead. I'll stick to what actually works best.

Opinions are like assholes. Most stink.
The 5.56mm round is the longest issued round in the US arsenal for regular infantry duty. (Yes, I know they still issue some M14s on 7.62 but thats not the military's standard battle round).

Wanna use "the longest issued round" or "the best performing round in actual combat?"

I rest my case.

Those are functionally the same. The round performs adequately in the field. The old 55gr out of a 1 in 12 twist with 20" barrel was just wicked.

 

[The Rabbi]

SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming shoot-to-wound policy put their lives at risk Daily Mail Online

"SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming 'shoot-to-wound' policy put their lives at risk

* Bullets upgrade recommended in top-secret report on SAS operations
* Authors describe clashes with Taliban who ignore bullet wounds and carry on shooting

The rounds currently issued as standard to SAS troops for their rifles are 5.56 mm calibre. In future, the troopers will be given 7.62 mm rounds – which are almost twice as heavy and designed to kill with a single shot."

Only reason a 5.56mm round and weapons system exists is soldiers in Vietnam were such bad shots the M14s in use were running out of ammo. But the spectacular inefficiency of 5.56mm in antipersonnel applications is well-documented.

Thats total nonsense. Iv'e talked to dozens of guys who saw combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The 5.56 performed just fine.

M4 M16 and 5.65mm NATO cartridge A Disgrace
"The U.S. Military's M4 Carbine, M16 Rifle and 5.56mm NATO Cartridge:
A National Disgrace?"

The truth about the 5.56mm round
"There's been tons written on various discussion threads about this topic, and mountains more available online. The short version of the story (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise) is that 5.56mm is a highly effective killing round *when it strikes a target at sufficient speed to induce fragmentation.* That's the "multiple wound channels" stuff you're talking about. M193 is said by many to be a better round, in terms of fragmenting, but SS109 will also fragment and will more reliably penetrate body armor. If 5.56mm hits at speeds too low to ensure fragmentation (required speed varies by type of round -- a short search via Google should give hard numbers), it is basically a .22 round drilled into and perhaps through a target. In this case, lethality depends on hitting something vital like major arteries, brain/spine, lung(s) etc."

(note, above writing is from 2004)

The USA s M4 Carbine Controversies
"The M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. "

7.62 mm Versus 5.56 mm - Does NATO Really Need Two Standard
"Conclusion: The 5.56mm will, at best, only be an interim
NATO standard. Due to its small size, further improvements of
the 5.56mm will be insufficient to keep up with the changing
requirements of future battlefields. Overall, the older 7.62mm
NATO is a better standard cartridge since it has the capacity and
the flexibility to be significantly improved and thereby remain
effective.
V. Recommendations: The 7.62mm NATO cartridge should be
developed with current technology to improve its penetration,
lethality, and overall-performance."


Wanna use the 'crunchenticker' of the rifle world go ahead. I'll stick to what actually works best.

Opinions are like assholes. Most stink.
The 5.56mm round is the longest issued round in the US arsenal for regular infantry duty. (Yes, I know they still issue some M14s on 7.62 but thats not the military's standard battle round).

Wanna use "the longest issued round" or "the best performing round in actual combat?"

I rest my case.

The whole idea of the 5.56 is you can carry far more ammo.
And all you really need is one to take the fight out of someone.

They create devastating wounds, as high velocity stuff does. Look what it did to Kennedy's head.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It looks like the current administration is back to its old tricks of seeking backdoor gun control that will only affect law abiding gun owners. The ATF is apparently in the process of attempting to ban a popular type of 5.56mm round that is popular with AR-15 owners. Based on new proposed regulations, the ATF is essentially seeking a ban on the popular M855 round (aka “green tip”). The NRA-ILA weighed in on the measure:

Now, BATFE has released a “Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are ‘Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes’ Within the Meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(c)”, which would eliminate M855’s exemption to the armor piercing ammunition prohibition and make future exemptions nearly impossible.


By way of background, federal law imposed in 1986 prohibits the manufacture, importation, and sale by licensed manufacturers or importers, but not possession, of “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely . . . from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” Because there are handguns capable of firing M855, it “may be used in a handgun.” It does not, however, have a core made of the metals listed in the law; rather, it has a traditional lead core with a steel tip, and therefore should never have been considered “armor piercing.” Nonetheless, BATFE previously declared M855 to be “armor piercing ammunition,” but granted it an exemption as a projectile “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”.

Obama to ban green tip 5.56 ammo

Anyone who has spent time in the military and has been issued this ammo knows it has no armor piercing capabilities. That won't stop Obama from banning it or any other ammo he feels like banning in the future.

Just to play devil's advocate with some of the literalist constitutional types around here,

are bullets mentioned in the Constitution?

No. Whats yer point?

Then according to you, we can't possibly have the right to own them.

Mayb you dont have a right to own them.
Are TVs mentioned in the Constitution? Maybe you dont have a right to own those either.
Dumbshit. Go play your sopjhomore word games elsewhere.

So you don't think that right to bear arms implicitly includes the right to own ammunition for those arms?

Are you fucking stupid?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Thats total nonsense. Iv'e talked to dozens of guys who saw combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The 5.56 performed just fine.

M4 M16 and 5.65mm NATO cartridge A Disgrace
"The U.S. Military's M4 Carbine, M16 Rifle and 5.56mm NATO Cartridge:
A National Disgrace?"

The truth about the 5.56mm round
"There's been tons written on various discussion threads about this topic, and mountains more available online. The short version of the story (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise) is that 5.56mm is a highly effective killing round *when it strikes a target at sufficient speed to induce fragmentation.* That's the "multiple wound channels" stuff you're talking about. M193 is said by many to be a better round, in terms of fragmenting, but SS109 will also fragment and will more reliably penetrate body armor. If 5.56mm hits at speeds too low to ensure fragmentation (required speed varies by type of round -- a short search via Google should give hard numbers), it is basically a .22 round drilled into and perhaps through a target. In this case, lethality depends on hitting something vital like major arteries, brain/spine, lung(s) etc."

(note, above writing is from 2004)

The USA s M4 Carbine Controversies
"The M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. "

7.62 mm Versus 5.56 mm - Does NATO Really Need Two Standard
"Conclusion: The 5.56mm will, at best, only be an interim
NATO standard. Due to its small size, further improvements of
the 5.56mm will be insufficient to keep up with the changing
requirements of future battlefields. Overall, the older 7.62mm
NATO is a better standard cartridge since it has the capacity and
the flexibility to be significantly improved and thereby remain
effective.
V. Recommendations: The 7.62mm NATO cartridge should be
developed with current technology to improve its penetration,
lethality, and overall-performance."


Wanna use the 'crunchenticker' of the rifle world go ahead. I'll stick to what actually works best.

Opinions are like assholes. Most stink.
The 5.56mm round is the longest issued round in the US arsenal for regular infantry duty. (Yes, I know they still issue some M14s on 7.62 but thats not the military's standard battle round).

Wanna use "the longest issued round" or "the best performing round in actual combat?"

I rest my case.

The whole idea of the 5.56 is you can carry far more ammo.
And all you really need is one to take the fight out of someone.

They create devastating wounds, as high velocity stuff does. Look what it did to Kennedy's head.

That was a 6.5 mm......maybe.

 

[The Rabbi]

Obama to ban green tip 5.56 ammo

Anyone who has spent time in the military and has been issued this ammo knows it has no armor piercing capabilities. That won't stop Obama from banning it or any other ammo he feels like banning in the future.

Just to play devil's advocate with some of the literalist constitutional types around here,

are bullets mentioned in the Constitution?

No. Whats yer point?

Then according to you, we can't possibly have the right to own them.

Mayb you dont have a right to own them.
Are TVs mentioned in the Constitution? Maybe you dont have a right to own those either.
Dumbshit. Go play your sopjhomore word games elsewhere.

So you don't think that right to bear arms implicitly includes the right to own ammunition for those arms?

Are you fucking stupid?

Fuck off, asshole. Play juvenile games elsewhere.

 

[The Rabbi]

M4 M16 and 5.65mm NATO cartridge A Disgrace
"The U.S. Military's M4 Carbine, M16 Rifle and 5.56mm NATO Cartridge:
A National Disgrace?"

The truth about the 5.56mm round
"There's been tons written on various discussion threads about this topic, and mountains more available online. The short version of the story (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise) is that 5.56mm is a highly effective killing round *when it strikes a target at sufficient speed to induce fragmentation.* That's the "multiple wound channels" stuff you're talking about. M193 is said by many to be a better round, in terms of fragmenting, but SS109 will also fragment and will more reliably penetrate body armor. If 5.56mm hits at speeds too low to ensure fragmentation (required speed varies by type of round -- a short search via Google should give hard numbers), it is basically a .22 round drilled into and perhaps through a target. In this case, lethality depends on hitting something vital like major arteries, brain/spine, lung(s) etc."

(note, above writing is from 2004)

The USA s M4 Carbine Controversies
"The M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. "

7.62 mm Versus 5.56 mm - Does NATO Really Need Two Standard
"Conclusion: The 5.56mm will, at best, only be an interim
NATO standard. Due to its small size, further improvements of
the 5.56mm will be insufficient to keep up with the changing
requirements of future battlefields. Overall, the older 7.62mm
NATO is a better standard cartridge since it has the capacity and
the flexibility to be significantly improved and thereby remain
effective.
V. Recommendations: The 7.62mm NATO cartridge should be
developed with current technology to improve its penetration,
lethality, and overall-performance."


Wanna use the 'crunchenticker' of the rifle world go ahead. I'll stick to what actually works best.

Opinions are like assholes. Most stink.
The 5.56mm round is the longest issued round in the US arsenal for regular infantry duty. (Yes, I know they still issue some M14s on 7.62 but thats not the military's standard battle round).

Wanna use "the longest issued round" or "the best performing round in actual combat?"

I rest my case.

The whole idea of the 5.56 is you can carry far more ammo.
And all you really need is one to take the fight out of someone.

They create devastating wounds, as high velocity stuff does. Look what it did to Kennedy's head.

That was a 6.5 mm......maybe.

THe wound wasnt consistent with a 6.5 Carcano, which is a slow round.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Thats total nonsense. Iv'e talked to dozens of guys who saw combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The 5.56 performed just fine.

M4 M16 and 5.65mm NATO cartridge A Disgrace
"The U.S. Military's M4 Carbine, M16 Rifle and 5.56mm NATO Cartridge:
A National Disgrace?"

The truth about the 5.56mm round
"There's been tons written on various discussion threads about this topic, and mountains more available online. The short version of the story (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise) is that 5.56mm is a highly effective killing round *when it strikes a target at sufficient speed to induce fragmentation.* That's the "multiple wound channels" stuff you're talking about. M193 is said by many to be a better round, in terms of fragmenting, but SS109 will also fragment and will more reliably penetrate body armor. If 5.56mm hits at speeds too low to ensure fragmentation (required speed varies by type of round -- a short search via Google should give hard numbers), it is basically a .22 round drilled into and perhaps through a target. In this case, lethality depends on hitting something vital like major arteries, brain/spine, lung(s) etc."

(note, above writing is from 2004)

The USA s M4 Carbine Controversies
"The M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. "

7.62 mm Versus 5.56 mm - Does NATO Really Need Two Standard
"Conclusion: The 5.56mm will, at best, only be an interim
NATO standard. Due to its small size, further improvements of
the 5.56mm will be insufficient to keep up with the changing
requirements of future battlefields. Overall, the older 7.62mm
NATO is a better standard cartridge since it has the capacity and
the flexibility to be significantly improved and thereby remain
effective.
V. Recommendations: The 7.62mm NATO cartridge should be
developed with current technology to improve its penetration,
lethality, and overall-performance."


Wanna use the 'crunchenticker' of the rifle world go ahead. I'll stick to what actually works best.

Opinions are like assholes. Most stink.
The 5.56mm round is the longest issued round in the US arsenal for regular infantry duty. (Yes, I know they still issue some M14s on 7.62 but thats not the military's standard battle round).

Wanna use "the longest issued round" or "the best performing round in actual combat?"

I rest my case.

The whole idea of the 5.56 is you can carry far more ammo.
And all you really need is one to take the fight out of someone.

They create devastating wounds, as high velocity stuff does. Look what it did to Kennedy's head.

Articles The Last Big Lie of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq

"At a Vietnam Special Forces base during 1964, I watched a U. S. soldier fire 15 rounds of .223 caliber ammunition into a tethered goat from an AR—15 rifle; moments after the last round hit, the goat fell over. Looking at the dead goat, I saw many little bullet entry—holes on one side; and when we turned him over, I saw many little bullet exit—holes on the other side. Over time, those observations were confirmed and reconfirmed, revealing that the stories we were told on the lethality of the .223 caliber cartridge were fabrications. Those false reports drove the adoption of the .223 caliber cartridge as the 5.56mm NATO cartridge and, ever since, Americans have been sent to war with a cartridge deficient in combat lethality; a deficiency that has recently caused the deaths of U.S. soldiers in Iraq.



What is efficient combat lethality? The book Black Hawk Down quotes SFC Paul Howe's description of SFC Randy Shughart, a soldier who elected to carry the 7.62mm M—14 into the urban battlefield of Somalia in 1993 rather than the 5.56mm CAR—15 (M—16—variant):



'His rifle may have been heavier and comparatively awkward and delivered a mean recoil, but it damn sure knocked a man down with one bullet, and in combat, one shot was all you got. You shoot a guy, you want to see him go down; you don't want to be guessing for the next five hours whether you hit him, or whether he's still waiting for you in the weeds.' [1]



With the wisdom of a combat veteran, Howe describes the lethality necessary for a cartridge in combat—one—round knockdown power."

more wisdom from actual combat at link

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Opinions are like assholes. Most stink.
The 5.56mm round is the longest issued round in the US arsenal for regular infantry duty. (Yes, I know they still issue some M14s on 7.62 but thats not the military's standard battle round).

Wanna use "the longest issued round" or "the best performing round in actual combat?"

I rest my case.

The whole idea of the 5.56 is you can carry far more ammo.
And all you really need is one to take the fight out of someone.

They create devastating wounds, as high velocity stuff does. Look what it did to Kennedy's head.

That was a 6.5 mm......maybe.

THe wound wasnt consistent with a 6.5 Carcano, which is a slow round.

At 2400 ft per second it is a somewhat slow round.
I havent seen the damage one would cause in a head shot so I got nothing....

 

[The Rabbi]

M4 M16 and 5.65mm NATO cartridge A Disgrace
"The U.S. Military's M4 Carbine, M16 Rifle and 5.56mm NATO Cartridge:
A National Disgrace?"

The truth about the 5.56mm round
"There's been tons written on various discussion threads about this topic, and mountains more available online. The short version of the story (though I'm sure some will argue otherwise) is that 5.56mm is a highly effective killing round *when it strikes a target at sufficient speed to induce fragmentation.* That's the "multiple wound channels" stuff you're talking about. M193 is said by many to be a better round, in terms of fragmenting, but SS109 will also fragment and will more reliably penetrate body armor. If 5.56mm hits at speeds too low to ensure fragmentation (required speed varies by type of round -- a short search via Google should give hard numbers), it is basically a .22 round drilled into and perhaps through a target. In this case, lethality depends on hitting something vital like major arteries, brain/spine, lung(s) etc."

(note, above writing is from 2004)

The USA s M4 Carbine Controversies
"The M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. "

7.62 mm Versus 5.56 mm - Does NATO Really Need Two Standard
"Conclusion: The 5.56mm will, at best, only be an interim
NATO standard. Due to its small size, further improvements of
the 5.56mm will be insufficient to keep up with the changing
requirements of future battlefields. Overall, the older 7.62mm
NATO is a better standard cartridge since it has the capacity and
the flexibility to be significantly improved and thereby remain
effective.
V. Recommendations: The 7.62mm NATO cartridge should be
developed with current technology to improve its penetration,
lethality, and overall-performance."


Wanna use the 'crunchenticker' of the rifle world go ahead. I'll stick to what actually works best.

Opinions are like assholes. Most stink.
The 5.56mm round is the longest issued round in the US arsenal for regular infantry duty. (Yes, I know they still issue some M14s on 7.62 but thats not the military's standard battle round).

Wanna use "the longest issued round" or "the best performing round in actual combat?"

I rest my case.

The whole idea of the 5.56 is you can carry far more ammo.
And all you really need is one to take the fight out of someone.

They create devastating wounds, as high velocity stuff does. Look what it did to Kennedy's head.

Articles The Last Big Lie of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq

"At a Vietnam Special Forces base during 1964, I watched a U. S. soldier fire 15 rounds of .223 caliber ammunition into a tethered goat from an AR—15 rifle; moments after the last round hit, the goat fell over. Looking at the dead goat, I saw many little bullet entry—holes on one side; and when we turned him over, I saw many little bullet exit—holes on the other side. Over time, those observations were confirmed and reconfirmed, revealing that the stories we were told on the lethality of the .223 caliber cartridge were fabrications. Those false reports drove the adoption of the .223 caliber cartridge as the 5.56mm NATO cartridge and, ever since, Americans have been sent to war with a cartridge deficient in combat lethality; a deficiency that has recently caused the deaths of U.S. soldiers in Iraq.



What is efficient combat lethality? The book Black Hawk Down quotes SFC Paul Howe's description of SFC Randy Shughart, a soldier who elected to carry the 7.62mm M—14 into the urban battlefield of Somalia in 1993 rather than the 5.56mm CAR—15 (M—16—variant):



'His rifle may have been heavier and comparatively awkward and delivered a mean recoil, but it damn sure knocked a man down with one bullet, and in combat, one shot was all you got. You shoot a guy, you want to see him go down; you don't want to be guessing for the next five hours whether you hit him, or whether he's still waiting for you in the weeds.' [1]



With the wisdom of a combat veteran, Howe describes the lethality necessary for a cartridge in combat—one—round knockdown power."

more wisdom from actual combat at link

You dont have to demonstrate that some people hold that opinion. I know that already. But it is bogus. The round works just fine.

 

[Siete]

30 caliber rounds, either the .308 or the 300 Win Mag will lower a targets blood pressure faster than smaller rounds. All will kill, some kill faster than others. EFP's demonstrate that. Ballistic charts prove that. Idiots argue about that.

 

[The Rabbi]

30 caliber rounds, either the .308 or the 300 Win Mag will lower a targets blood pressure faster than smaller rounds. All will kill, some kill faster than others. EFP's demonstrate that. Ballistic charts prove that. Idiots argue about that.

So? The 5.56 round doesnt kill by lowering blood pressure.

 

[Iceweasel]

Firepower isn't the only consideration for home defence, or CCW for that matter. You don't want the round to go through the perp and the house behind him. There's a balance and a handgun, shotgun and 5.56/.223 fits the bill.

 

[Siete]

30 caliber rounds, either the .308 or the 300 Win Mag will lower a targets blood pressure faster than smaller rounds. All will kill, some kill faster than others. EFP's demonstrate that. Ballistic charts prove that. Idiots argue about that.

So? The 5.56 round doesnt kill by lowering blood pressure.

not what I said you dumbass... try reading AND comprehending at the same time ... if that's possible for you.

 

[The Rabbi]

30 caliber rounds, either the .308 or the 300 Win Mag will lower a targets blood pressure faster than smaller rounds. All will kill, some kill faster than others. EFP's demonstrate that. Ballistic charts prove that. Idiots argue about that.

So? The 5.56 round doesnt kill by lowering blood pressure.

not what I said you dumbass... try reading AND comprehending at the same time ... if that's possible for you.

Yeah that is what you said. I cant help it if you're fucking clueless here.
The development of the 5.56 came in the early 60s after a famous army study on wounding etc. They determined they didnt need a round that would kill at 500 meters sincee most engagements werent close to that.
High velocity is a killer at the cellular level.

 

[Siete]

Sniping Ammunition Calibers and Cartridges - Sniper Central

pick your poison ... click a caliber, get the ballistics