Zone1 Mormons who have apostatized or stopped going to Church

[otto105]

Are you really that obtuse? So what. All cult means is we are outside the mainstream. I’m happy with that.

Any belief that involves a spaceship is a cult.

But hey, if you're fine with it, good for you.

 

[BS Filter]

I’m using my brains. Something you refuse to do. Truth is reason, truth is eternal. Try it sometime.
Now you are making up stuff. We have never taught that Father did that. Typical anti-Mormon stuff that you like to throw out there.

I think you're a liar.

A debate simulator for analyzing Christianity's 5 big claims

beliefmap.org

 

[Cougarbear]

Any belief that involves a spaceship is a cult.

But hey, if you're fine with it, good for you.

Spaceship? You guys crack me up.

 

[Cougarbear]

I think you're a liar.

A debate simulator for analyzing Christianity's 5 big claims

beliefmap.org

It’s not doctrinal. Nothing in our scriptures says so. There are members that likes to think a lot out loud. That’s another myth. There was no sex. My opinion is in vitro fertilization. Performed by the Holy Ghost. No sex.

 

[BS Filter]

It’s not doctrinal. Nothing in our scriptures says so. There are members that likes to think a lot out loud. That’s another myth. There was no sex. My opinion is in vitro fertilization. Performed by the Holy Ghost. No sex.

But these guys are your "prophets". I guess I could say crazy shit and call myself a prophet, huh.

 

[Cougarbear]

But these guys are your "prophets". I guess I could say crazy shit and call myself a prophet, huh.

You got bad information. Pretty much like the reasons why blacks were unable to hold the priesthood. The reason why these opinions were never put in the Doctrine and Covenants is because there never was actual revelation declaring by God this was so. Any more than opinions why blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood. When President Kimball stated thus sayeth the Lord that blacks may now hold the priesthood, apostles like McConkie came out and said they were all wrong in their opinions.
In vitro fertilization came around after these statements were made. Since Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the flesh, logic back then would say it had to be through sexual intercourse. The Book of Mormon said it was the Holy Ghost. So, once man was able to take the sperm of a man and impregnate a woman, the idea of the Father having intercourse with Mary went out the door. The Holy Ghost was the doctor who performed the in vitro fertilization of Mary to produce Jesus Christ.
There’s other Mormon myths that were opinions of leaders in the Church. But unless the prophet says thus sayeth the Lord, it’s only opinion. And remains in books compiled by man.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Isn't faith in Jesus alone enough to save anyone?

If you have a genuine, saving faith then you will obey Jesus, doing what he instructed. You will naturally have a desire to fellowship with other believers, get baptized, and keep communion.

Rom 1:16-18 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The apostle Paul in the above passage in verse 17, is citing Habakkuk 2:4:

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The Hebrew word translated "faith" in Habakkuk 2:4 is "emuna". Take a look at the definition of that word according to Christian Hebrew lexicons:

Brown Driver Briggs:
אֱמֻנָה / אֱמוּנָה
’ĕmûnâh
BDB Definition:
1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H529
Same Word by TWOT Number: 116e

-----------------------------------------------------------

Strongs Hebrew Lexicon:
אֱמֻנָה אֱמוּנָה
'ĕmûnâh 'ĕmûnâh
em-oo-naw', em-oo-naw'
Feminine of H529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity: - faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

-------------------------------------------------------
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon:

The Hebrew word "Emunah", which Paul cited, when he quoted Habakkuk 2:4, means to be firm in the faith, steadfast, and steady. Saving faith is faithful, it isn't wishy-washy, or fruitless. How is this word used in the Hebrew Bible?

Total KJV Occurrences: 49

faithfulness, 18
1Sa_26:23, Psa_36:5, Psa_88:10-11 (2), Psa_89:1-2 (2), Psa_89:5, Psa_89:8, Psa_89:24, Psa_89:33, Psa_92:2, Psa_119:75, Psa_119:90, Psa_143:1, Isa_11:5, Isa_25:1, Lam_3:23, Hos_2:20

truth, 13
Psa_33:4 (2), Psa_89:49, Psa_96:13, Psa_98:3, Psa_100:5, Psa_119:30, Pro_12:17, Isa_59:4, Jer_5:1, Jer_5:3, Jer_7:28, Jer_9:3

faithfully, 5
2Ki_12:15, 2Ki_22:7, 2Ch_19:9, 2Ch_34:12 (2)
set, 5
1Ch_9:22, 1Ch_9:26, 1Ch_9:31, 2Ch_31:15, 2Ch_31:18

faithful, 3
Psa_119:86, Psa_119:138, Pro_28:20

faith, 1
Hab_2:4

stability, 1
Isa_33:6

steady, 1
Exo_17:12

truly, 1
Pro_12:22

verily, 1
Psa_37:3

Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant reformation tells us:

"It is impossible, indeed, to separate works from faith, just as it is impossible to separate heat and light from fire." And, "In chapter 12 [of Romans], Paul speaks of the true way of serving God. He shows that all Christians are priests,.... He then describes the outward conduct of Christians under the discipline of the spirit; how they must teach, preach ... and act towards friend, foe, and fellow-man. These are the works which a Christian does, for, as I have said, faith is not an inert thing." - from the Preface of the Epistle to the Romans as quoted in Martin Luther, selections from his writings, Doubleday Publishing, 1961, pp. 24 & 33.

In the LXX-Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, the word Emunah in Habakkuk 2:4, is the Greek word: . pisteuo. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, an Evangelical Christian publication, tells us about pisteuo:

"C. Faith in Judaism. 1. The OT Legacy .... The OT [Septuagint] term, however, carries a stronger element [than in even the classical Greek] of acknowledgment and obedience. [pp. 852, 853]

"D. The pistis Group in the NT. .... 1. Continuation of the OT and Jewish Tradition..... b. pisteuo as `to obey.' Heb. 11 stresses that to believe is to obey, as in the OT. Paul in Rom. 1:8; 1 Th. 1:8 (cf. Rom. 15:18; 16:19) shows, too, that believing means obeying. He speaks about the obedience of faith in Rom. 1:5, and cf. 10:3; 2 Cor. 9:13." [pp. 853, 854] - Kittel & Friedrich, Eerdmans Publ., 1992 reprint.

Strongs Greek Lexicon:

G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis’-tis

From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
---------------------------------------------------
Mounce Greek Dictionary:

G4102
πίστις
pistis
243x: faith, belief, firm persuasion, 2Co_5:7; Heb_11:1; assurance, firm conviction, Rom_14:23; ground of belief, guarantee, assurance, Act_17:31; good faith, honesty, integrity, Mat_23:23; Gal_5:22; Tit_2:10; faithfulness, truthfulness, Rom_3:3; in NT faith in God and Christ, Mat_8:10; Act_3:16, et al. freq.; ἡ πίστις, the matter of Gospel faith, Act_6:7; Jud_1:3.
--------------------------------------------------
Thayer Greek:
G4102
πίστις
pistis
Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3982

-----------------------------------------------------

Some Evangelical Greek Lexicons, downplay the "faithfulness" and "fidelity" definitions, placing them last on the list of definitions, while the original Hebrew "Emunah", is more often used for faithfulness, fidelity, firm, steady..etc. Faith or belief alone, a mere mental assent, isn't the meaning of Emunah, or arguably, "pistis" as well when applied to the prophet Habakkuk's words "The just shall live by faith/faithfulness".

The following are Protestant, Evangelical theological commentaries:

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology:

"pistij (pistis), faith; pisteuo (pisteuo), believe .... CL 1. (a) In classical Gk literature .... With reference to people, pisteuo means to obey." ....

"(b) Originally the word-group denoted conduct that honored an agreement or bond. .... [p. 594]"

"[NT] 2. Paul and the Pauline Tradition. .... `Faith' means receiving the message of salvation and conduct based on the gospel. .... [p. 601]"

"4. The Understanding of Faith in the Rest of the NT. .... [James] demands renunciation of all conduct that conflicts with living faith and confession (1:6ff.). For him, faith and obedient conduct are indissolubly linked. Faith understood merely as trust and confession is not able to save. Only through obedience ... and conduct which fulfills the commandments of God does faith come to completion (James 2:22). .... For the thesis which Jas. wishes to argue is that `faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead' (2:17)." [pp. 603-605]"

-----------------------------------------------------

The New Bible Dictionary says about pisteuo:

"The man who really believes God will, of course, act on that belief. In other words, a genuine belief that what God has revealed as true will issue in a true faith. .... [p. 367]

"Faith implies complete reliance on God and full obedience to God." [p. 368]

The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament also tells us:

"4100 .... a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messish ... conjoined with obedience to Christ." - p. 511, Joseph H. Thayer, Baker Book House, 1977.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Daniel B. Wallace, Zondervan Publ., 1996. another Evangelical publication, says concerning pisteuo specifically as found at John 3:16:

"John 3:16 paj o[ pisteuwn [eij] everyone who believes [into]

The idea seems to be both gnomic and continual: `everyone who continually believes.'

This is not due to the present tense only, but to the use of the present participle [pisteuwn] of pisteuw." - p. 620,

* * * * *

Dr. William Barclay discusses pisteuo as used at John 3:15 (also in present participle form, pisteuwn, as defined above by Wallace):

"So then belief [pisteuw] in Jesus has these three elements - [1] belief that God is our loving Father, [2] belief that Jesus is the son of God and therefore tells us the truth about God and life, and [3] unswerving and unquestioning obedience to Jesus." - p. 136, Vol. 2, The Gospel of John, Rev. ed., The Daily Study Bible Series, The Westminster Press, 1975.

* * * * *

NT passages that support the aforementioned definition of Emunah and Pistis, as more than just a mere mental assent, including obedience and faithfulness as well:

2Pe 1:4-10 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; (7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. (8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jas 2:14-20 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, (16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? (17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

A genuine, saving faith is fruitful, leading to a life of repentance and obedience to Jesus Christ.

Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 2:2-6 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Many passages throughout the NT state that a saving faith is fruitful (A faith that works).

1Pe 1:13-17 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: (15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; (16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Php 2:12-15 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (14) Do all things without murmurings and disputings: (15) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Joh 15:4-10 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. (9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


Don't be deceived by false teachers who tell you faith doesn't include faithfulness.

 

[TruthNotBS]

its a cult.

Call it whatever you want, I don't care. I'm concerned with the truth, and the rhetoric is completely irrelevant to me. The followers of Jesus in the 1st century were all considered a sect or cult. Most religions begin as "cults", and again, so what? You're just throwing labels because that's all you have. Cheap polemics, rhetoric.

 

[TruthNotBS]

theres a lot wrong with it.

Like what?

 

[TruthNotBS]

Mormonism is a cult

UUuuuuuu, he called it a "cult".

 

[BS Filter]

You got bad information. Pretty much like the reasons why blacks were unable to hold the priesthood. The reason why these opinions were never put in the Doctrine and Covenants is because there never was actual revelation declaring by God this was so. Any more than opinions why blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood. When President Kimball stated thus sayeth the Lord that blacks may now hold the priesthood, apostles like McConkie came out and said they were all wrong in their opinions.
In vitro fertilization came around after these statements were made. Since Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the flesh, logic back then would say it had to be through sexual intercourse. The Book of Mormon said it was the Holy Ghost. So, once man was able to take the sperm of a man and impregnate a woman, the idea of the Father having intercourse with Mary went out the door. The Holy Ghost was the doctor who performed the in vitro fertilization of Mary to produce Jesus Christ.
There’s other Mormon myths that were opinions of leaders in the Church. But unless the prophet says thus sayeth the Lord, it’s only opinion. And remains in books compiled by man.

Bullshit.

 

[BS Filter]

If you have a genuine, saving faith then you will obey Jesus, doing what he instructed. You will naturally have a desire to fellowship with other believers, get baptized, and keep communion.

Rom 1:16-18 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The apostle Paul in the above passage in verse 17, is citing Habakkuk 2:4:

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The Hebrew word translated "faith" in Habakkuk 2:4 is "emuna". Take a look at the definition of that word according to Christian Hebrew lexicons:

Brown Driver Briggs:
אֱמֻנָה / אֱמוּנָה
’ĕmûnâh
BDB Definition:
1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H529
Same Word by TWOT Number: 116e

-----------------------------------------------------------

Strongs Hebrew Lexicon:
אֱמֻנָה אֱמוּנָה
'ĕmûnâh 'ĕmûnâh
em-oo-naw', em-oo-naw'
Feminine of H529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity: - faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

-------------------------------------------------------
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon:
View attachment 894204

The Hebrew word "Emunah", which Paul cited, when he quoted Habakkuk 2:4, means to be firm in the faith, steadfast, and steady. Saving faith is faithful, it isn't wishy-washy, or fruitless. How is this word used in the Hebrew Bible?

Total KJV Occurrences: 49

faithfulness, 18
1Sa_26:23, Psa_36:5, Psa_88:10-11 (2), Psa_89:1-2 (2), Psa_89:5, Psa_89:8, Psa_89:24, Psa_89:33, Psa_92:2, Psa_119:75, Psa_119:90, Psa_143:1, Isa_11:5, Isa_25:1, Lam_3:23, Hos_2:20

truth, 13
Psa_33:4 (2), Psa_89:49, Psa_96:13, Psa_98:3, Psa_100:5, Psa_119:30, Pro_12:17, Isa_59:4, Jer_5:1, Jer_5:3, Jer_7:28, Jer_9:3

faithfully, 5
2Ki_12:15, 2Ki_22:7, 2Ch_19:9, 2Ch_34:12 (2)
set, 5
1Ch_9:22, 1Ch_9:26, 1Ch_9:31, 2Ch_31:15, 2Ch_31:18

faithful, 3
Psa_119:86, Psa_119:138, Pro_28:20

faith, 1
Hab_2:4

stability, 1
Isa_33:6

steady, 1
Exo_17:12

truly, 1
Pro_12:22

verily, 1
Psa_37:3

Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant reformation tells us:

"It is impossible, indeed, to separate works from faith, just as it is impossible to separate heat and light from fire." And, "In chapter 12 [of Romans], Paul speaks of the true way of serving God. He shows that all Christians are priests,.... He then describes the outward conduct of Christians under the discipline of the spirit; how they must teach, preach ... and act towards friend, foe, and fellow-man. These are the works which a Christian does, for, as I have said, faith is not an inert thing." - from the Preface of the Epistle to the Romans as quoted in Martin Luther, selections from his writings, Doubleday Publishing, 1961, pp. 24 & 33.

In the LXX-Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, the word Emunah in Habakkuk 2:4, is the Greek word: . pisteuo. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, an Evangelical Christian publication, tells us about pisteuo:

"C. Faith in Judaism. 1. The OT Legacy .... The OT [Septuagint] term, however, carries a stronger element [than in even the classical Greek] of acknowledgment and obedience. [pp. 852, 853]

"D. The pistis Group in the NT. .... 1. Continuation of the OT and Jewish Tradition..... b. pisteuo as `to obey.' Heb. 11 stresses that to believe is to obey, as in the OT. Paul in Rom. 1:8; 1 Th. 1:8 (cf. Rom. 15:18; 16:19) shows, too, that believing means obeying. He speaks about the obedience of faith in Rom. 1:5, and cf. 10:3; 2 Cor. 9:13." [pp. 853, 854] - Kittel & Friedrich, Eerdmans Publ., 1992 reprint.

Strongs Greek Lexicon:

G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis’-tis

From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
---------------------------------------------------
Mounce Greek Dictionary:

G4102
πίστις
pistis
243x: faith, belief, firm persuasion, 2Co_5:7; Heb_11:1; assurance, firm conviction, Rom_14:23; ground of belief, guarantee, assurance, Act_17:31; good faith, honesty, integrity, Mat_23:23; Gal_5:22; Tit_2:10; faithfulness, truthfulness, Rom_3:3; in NT faith in God and Christ, Mat_8:10; Act_3:16, et al. freq.; ἡ πίστις, the matter of Gospel faith, Act_6:7; Jud_1:3.
--------------------------------------------------
Thayer Greek:
G4102
πίστις
pistis
Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3982

-----------------------------------------------------

Some Evangelical Greek Lexicons, downplay the "faithfulness" and "fidelity" definitions, placing them last on the list of definitions, while the original Hebrew "Emunah", is more often used for faithfulness, fidelity, firm, steady..etc. Faith or belief alone, a mere mental assent, isn't the meaning of Emunah, or arguably, "pistis" as well when applied to the prophet Habakkuk's words "The just shall live by faith/faithfulness".

The following are Protestant, Evangelical theological commentaries:

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology:

"pistij (pistis), faith; pisteuo (pisteuo), believe .... CL 1. (a) In classical Gk literature .... With reference to people, pisteuo means to obey." ....

"(b) Originally the word-group denoted conduct that honored an agreement or bond. .... [p. 594]"

"[NT] 2. Paul and the Pauline Tradition. .... `Faith' means receiving the message of salvation and conduct based on the gospel. .... [p. 601]"

"4. The Understanding of Faith in the Rest of the NT. .... [James] demands renunciation of all conduct that conflicts with living faith and confession (1:6ff.). For him, faith and obedient conduct are indissolubly linked. Faith understood merely as trust and confession is not able to save. Only through obedience ... and conduct which fulfills the commandments of God does faith come to completion (James 2:22). .... For the thesis which Jas. wishes to argue is that `faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead' (2:17)." [pp. 603-605]"

-----------------------------------------------------

The New Bible Dictionary says about pisteuo:

"The man who really believes God will, of course, act on that belief. In other words, a genuine belief that what God has revealed as true will issue in a true faith. .... [p. 367]

"Faith implies complete reliance on God and full obedience to God." [p. 368]

The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament also tells us:

"4100 .... a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messish ... conjoined with obedience to Christ." - p. 511, Joseph H. Thayer, Baker Book House, 1977.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Daniel B. Wallace, Zondervan Publ., 1996. another Evangelical publication, says concerning pisteuo specifically as found at John 3:16:

"John 3:16 paj o[ pisteuwn [eij] everyone who believes [into]

The idea seems to be both gnomic and continual: `everyone who continually believes.'

This is not due to the present tense only, but to the use of the present participle [pisteuwn] of pisteuw." - p. 620,

* * * * *

Dr. William Barclay discusses pisteuo as used at John 3:15 (also in present participle form, pisteuwn, as defined above by Wallace):

"So then belief [pisteuw] in Jesus has these three elements - [1] belief that God is our loving Father, [2] belief that Jesus is the son of God and therefore tells us the truth about God and life, and [3] unswerving and unquestioning obedience to Jesus." - p. 136, Vol. 2, The Gospel of John, Rev. ed., The Daily Study Bible Series, The Westminster Press, 1975.

* * * * *

NT passages that support the aforementioned definition of Emunah and Pistis, as more than just a mere mental assent, including obedience and faithfulness as well:

2Pe 1:4-10 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; (7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. (8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jas 2:14-20 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, (16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? (17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

A genuine, saving faith is fruitful, leading to a life of repentance and obedience to Jesus Christ.

Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 2:2-6 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Many passages throughout the NT state that a saving faith is fruitful (A faith that works).

1Pe 1:13-17 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: (15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; (16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Php 2:12-15 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (14) Do all things without murmurings and disputings: (15) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Joh 15:4-10 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. (9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


Don't be deceived by false teachers who tell you faith doesn't include faithfulness.

So according to Scripture I am saved by faith in Jesus alone.

 

[BS Filter]

Bullshit.

Failed Prophecies of Joseph Smith

Failed Prophecies of Joseph Smith: Seven documented prophecies made in the name of the Lord and their results.

mit.irr.org

 

[otto105]

UUuuuuuu, he called it a "cult".

All religions are cults

 

[Cougarbear]

Bullshit.

The information you presented is called the Journal of Discourses. Do you know what a Discourse is? It’s a discussion, an example, personal opinions debated. What it is not is 100% truth or doctrine. One of the persons you quoted was an Apostle Bruce R. McConkie. He wrote a book called Mormon Doctrine. When he wrote it, the First Presidency had issues with the name of the book. Because it is a discourse, not a book of doctrine. And, there are members that hung on to every word McConkie said. Now, I really like his book because he does apply scripture references and a lot of them. But, even with that, a member of that Presidency, Marion G. Romney, was commissioned to go through it and find out if it’s all doctrine or not. Romney found 1,000 doctrinal errors. Why? Because McConkie was giving his opinions and ideas of what he thought may be an answer or clarification.

The problem with Christians following their pastors is they believe their discourses are 100% doctrine. Your arguments are divisive because you assume things like the J of D is doctrine when it is not. It is you that spew baloney.

 

[BS Filter]

The information you presented is called the Journal of Discourses. Do you know what a Discourse is? It’s a discussion, an example, personal opinions debated. What it is not is 100% truth or doctrine. One of the persons you quoted was an Apostle Bruce R. McConkie. He wrote a book called Mormon Doctrine. When he wrote it, the First Presidency had issues with the name of the book. Because it is a discourse, not a book of doctrine. And, there are members that hung on to every word McConkie said. Now, I really like his book because he does apply scripture references and a lot of them. But, even with that, a member of that Presidency, Marion G. Romney, was commissioned to go through it and find out if it’s all doctrine or not. Romney found 1,000 doctrinal errors. Why? Because McConkie was giving his opinions and ideas of what he thought may be an answer or clarification.

The problem with Christians following their pastors is they believe their discourses are 100% doctrine. Your arguments are divisive because you assume things like the J of D is doctrine when it is not. It is you that spew baloney.

So basically you're saying we don't have to take your books seriously. Then what's the purpose?

 

[Cougarbear]

So basically you're saying we don't have to take your books seriously. Then what's the purpose?

You have serious comprehension problems. The Book of Mormon is doctrine. The Journal of Discourses and Mormon Doctrine books are not doctrine. I don’t know why you are so confused. We aren’t.

 

[BS Filter]

You have serious comprehension problems. The Book of Mormon is doctrine. The Journal of Discourses and Mormon Doctrine books are not doctrine. I don’t know why you are so confused. We aren’t.

Mormon Doctrine books are not doctrine. Now I'm really confused.

 

[Cougarbear]

Mormon Doctrine books are not doctrine. Now I'm really confused.

I explained it clearly. That’s why I’m concerned for your comprehension ability. Perhaps Alzheimer’s? Read it again what I posted.

 

[BS Filter]

I explained it clearly. That’s why I’m concerned for your comprehension ability. Perhaps Alzheimer’s? Read it again what I posted.

Your words...."The Journal of Discourses and Mormon Doctrine books are NOT doctrine". I don't think the problem is on my end. Perhaps you better call an elder or a prophet to sort it out.