Your conceptual beliefs are meaningless apart from the indwelling from the Holy Spirit.
Zone1 Mary's sinlessness
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Okay, so here you say that you believe salvation is only found within the Catholic Church, while OTOH you have said that God is greater than the Church, which leaves open the question, can salvation be found outside the Catholic Church?
On the one hand you say you believe only Catholics can be saved, yet do you not also believe that I, as a believer in Christ, am saved through faith though not a Catholic? If not, I would like to see it stated clearly whether you believe Catholicism is the deciding factor.
The thief on the cross was not a Catholic and none of the Apostles were Catholics, yet no one is denying their salvation.
Meriweather
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Sigh. What you do not seem to understand is that Catholics are not waiting until the afterlife to--in Protestant terms--"be saved." Practicing Catholics are living salvation now. You are asking what will be the fate of people in the afterlife. Guess what: The Church teaches that we don't know who, if anyone, is in hell.
The Catholic Church does not have the authority to teach any other way(s) of salvation other than what Jesus taught. Nor does the Catholic Church have the authority to judge whether any other faith, non-faith, religion, no-religion is beyond the reach of salvation/God. Paul, in one of his letters, says those who have no belief will be judged by his/her own heart. (One's own heart can be much less merciful than the love of God.) The Catholic Church teaches all are in the hands of a merciful and loving God.
If any Catholic were to say some person (or group of people) will be in hell, based on the Catechism, they are out of line.
Let's try this question: Are you a fan of salvation?
I'm not arguing what it means to be saved, that's not the point. I will, however, address it to allay your concerns. Yes, we are saved NOW. I use the afterlife to ask whether you believe someone who is, say, a Protestant, and never intends to be a Catholic, is saved just as you are and is in right relationship with God just as you are. Our conflict comes in the arena of the catechism stating that salvation is found only in the Catholic Church. You say you believe that but simultaneously say it's not necessarily true.
That's what Protestants teach as well. What Jesus said must be done to be, as He put it, born again, to walk into Paradise with Him just as the thief on the cross did.
We are judged based on what we know. If we've never heard of the Law, we are judged by what nature itself tells us about God and what our conscience tells us. If we've heard of the Law but not Jesus, we're judged by the Law. If we've heard of Jesus, we're judged by Him. I will state to you that you and I have BOTH heard of Jesus and we BOTH will be judged by Him. Now, that being said, are you going to take the position that I am not saved because I came to faith outside the Catholic Church and have no intention of ever being a Catholic?
That sounds like you're saying the catechism isn't necessarily correct. It states that salvation is found only in the Church. If a Catholic believes that, why would he/she not also believe that non-Catholic believers will be rejected by God?
Absolutely. I have been saved for 50 years and endorse it for everyone.
I will state clearly one final time. Our conflict regards believers in Christ who are not part of the Catholic Church and never will be. The catechism says they are not saved.
Meriweather
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No. That is what YOU say that I am saying. I am saying we have very different perspectives on salvation "saved".
Meriweather
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Again: You haven't a clue what I have said about salvation. You keep back to your own understanding...."saved". I'm not speaking of being "saved".
Meriweather
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No, that is what you are hoping I am saying. You have no understanding of what I actually said.
Meriweather
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"Saved" again. I gave you what Jesus said about salvation. I explained how the Church is following Christ's points on salvation. You know your church dismisses these points. It is only the Catholic/Orthodox churches who believe and follow them. Those who want to live every point of salvation are interested in Catholic practices. Those who are satisfied with "saved" ignore these words completely--and some argue that the Church did not understand Christ correctly.
Again, you want the discussion to be about who is in heaven. Don't know, don't really care because that is not in my providence--it's in God's. What I care deeply about is living--in THIS life--ALL the ways of salvation as Jesus taught. That is what is within my providence.
Meriweather
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Good you are a fan. Trick question, though. Can discern why?
Meriweather
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The catechism says, "Outside the Church there is no salvation." And there is not--I pointed out the verses. You insist this means the Church is saying you are not "saved." I am trying my best to explain we are talking apples and oranges when discussing salvation and "saved."
We work out salvation with fear and trembling. Do you work out "saved" with fear and trembling? Or, is it simply something you have or something you are?
Of course I can. I have the Holy Spirit within me, comforting, guiding, convicting of sin. How do you discern it?
Okay, I state that I have salvation without being a Catholic. What exactly do you think you have that I do not?
It is both something I have and something I am duty bound to care for. Remember Jesus' parable about the servants who were given great wealth by their master and were held accountable for what they did with it when he returned? I am simultaneously comforted that my salvation is secure because of what Jesus did, that nothing I do can make Him love me more or less AND I take seriously my own actions, knowing my life is not my own anymore and everything I do is to be done for Him, not me. It is a very serious matter, not to be taken lightly and I feel that you perhaps think I do because I do not agree with everything the Catholic Church states. I don't hold ANY denomination to have it all correct because ALL of them have some part of Scripture they downplay or ignore altogether.
HaShev
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They were creating an image that had to compete with the other sons of gods and godess figures, the NT itself says she was not immaculate or perpetual virgin.Is MARY SINLESS?
Even with the best intention's one cannot prove Mary is sinless from the Bible. The Word of God gives a different story than the traditions the Roman Catholic church uses to validate their dogma of the Immaculate conception. Eve was the only sinless woman who ever existed, until she sinned.But Eve was not born but created from Adam. In Luke 1:34 when the angel Gabriel first appeared to her and announced the savior would be conceived in her womb, she responded, “ how can this be since I do not know a man.” Mary asked the angel what manner of greeting is this. If she was sinless certainly she would have known and understood the things of God, but Mary could not understand why she had been selected for this honor. In Luke 2:49-50 When Mary and Joseph after a day's journey found out that Jesus was missing from their company they went back to find Him. After two more days they found Him teaching in the temple teaching. Mary then asks Jesus why he did not leave with them, they looked high and low for him? His response is, why did you look all over for me? Did you not know that I must be about my fathers business (work)?”
Lk.2“But they (both Mary and Joseph) did not understand the words he spoke to them.” Notice in both accounts Mary does not understand the things of God. Someone who is sinless would know God’s ways and not need a explanation. It is sin that corrupts ones understanding of spiritual things. What did they not understand? That Jesus would be about His Fathers business. In this account we see Mary equal with Joseph in not understanding.
Nowhere does the Bible says Mary was sinless or the exception to sin passed on from each generation. For such a miraculous event the Bible surely would have spoken to this issue. Catholics do not find this doctrine from the context of Scripture but from making a pretext out of the Scripture from their Church tradition (which happens to be written down). But again it is not apostolic tradition. If Mary was conceived without sin then her parents would have certainly known and would have assumed she was to bare the Messiah. The Catholics say she became sinless later in life. This would mean God took someone who has the nature of sin and completely change them to be sinless like Jesus Christ--without a virgin birth. Certainly such a miracle would be mentioned in the Scripture, but it is not! The Bible has no hint of such a thing to occur and actually says the very opposite in no uncertain terms in Romans 3. Accusing all of humanity to be under sin except for one, the God/man with the virgin birth.
There is not one Scripture given in context to show Mary is without sin. However, there is much to show the opposite. In Luke 1:46-47: After she visits Elizabeth and she is blessed she exalts the Lord saying “ My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my savior.' Here Mary is saying that God is her personal savior, only sinners need a savior. In vs. 48 Mary states “ Henceforth all generations will call me blessed for He (God) has done great things for me and Holy is His name and His mercy is on those who fear Him.” Notice she says, God is Holy not herself, that He will have mercy upon her. Mercy is withheld punishment, only a sinner needs the mercy of God. It wasn’t until 1850 that the Catholic church endorsed Mary's sinlessness. Luke records by the Holy Spirit that Mary said she is a sinner by her admission in needing a savior, but the Pope says she does not. So then the Bible would be wrong and a man called the Pope is right, it can't be both.
She also states God has done great things for her, yet in Catholic theology today it is more the opposite. She has done great things for God! How clear is the Bible to speak to today’s current trends of religion.
“And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” Here they extolling Jesus’ mother (as the Catholic Church does today), notice what Jesus’ reaction is v.28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” (Luke 11:27-28). The WORD of God was what Jesus said was more important, even than His earthly mother.
In the Catholic translation of the Bible ( Douay Rheims) it reads in Luke 1:28 “ the angel said to her: Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.” Unanimously in all the other translations which are from the Greek, not the Latin. They instead say, “ Rejoice, highly favored one the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women.” At first we notice she is blessed among women not exalted above them. She is chosen in preference to all the women upon earth, not men. The word for grace is what is being disputed. Roman Catholics state that this grace is a special measure to Mary only, but this does not fit the Biblical record. This word in the Greek is Kechari tomene (a perfect participle in the verb form, an omega verb) it means the one who God has graced, to give undue favor; only sinful people need God's grace. She is being chosen in preference to all the women upon earth, favoured above all the daughters of the house of David to be the mother of the Messiah in the flesh. This refers to one who is a recipient of God's favor, not the source of grace. This word for grace is from the root word Charitoo in Ephesians 1:6 it is also used of the believers in that church, “graced us.” A. T. Robertson, the Greek scholar states it is a late verb charitoo (from charis, grace), in the New Testament attracted to case of antecedent charitos only here and Luke 1:28 (Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament).
This term is also used of Stephen in Acts 6:8 yet no one would claim that he too is without original sin. This is the same used for all who have been graced by God. Mary was no different in this respect. It was grace given to her to conceive without the aid of man and care for Jesus.
(The later part of Luke 1:28 “blessed art thou among women.” according to Strong's concordance are inserted words; This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.)
V.30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.” This grace means endued with special honor: she was honored with the blessing to birth the Messiah. Again this is the same word for grace as to believers in the New Testament. Where does it say the virgin will be without sin? It doesn’t, it does not say she is sinless but full of Grace which really is highly favored. If full of grace means without sin than what of the grace given to believers, God’s grace is promised to all the believers collectively? Mary didn’t have grace from birth but when she was going to be with child. But the Catholic Church insists Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception Catechism of the Catholic Church, 490-492).
The Greek reads like this in Luke 1:28 of the Interlinear Transliterated Bible
Besides it says “blessed are you among women!” Not among men and woman. This is significant because Catholics claim she was without sin, singled out among all mankind. The whole theology of Mary’s sinlessness is based on this one passage that says nothing of the sort.
eípen Chaíre kecharitooménee ho Kúrios metá soú said, Hail, ( thou that art) highly favoured, the Lord (is) with thee:
How does anyone get this to mean without sin when the bible says only God is without sin is beyond belief. John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. V.15-17 6 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.”
Full is the from the word it means to “fill” (literally or figuratively [imbue, influence, supply (Interlinear Transliterated Bible ) To have grace does not mean one is sinless it means God's favor toward that person
pleérees cháritos full of grace .
Eph 1:6: “to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” In Eph 1:6, grace has the meaning of being “made... accepted.” The believers are made accepted by the same grace that Mary enjoyed. (Go to article on the virgin birth) If the term cháritos means "sinlessness," then it would have to be applied the elect of God, to be sinless as well. In other words one cannot be inconsistent in its usage unless they can find a serious reason for it. In Lk.1:42 Elizabeth's words were “you are most blessed of all women” Does not mean Mary was the holiest of all women, but blessed because she carried the savior.
Luke 1:30 Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor (grace) with God. Many others found the same grace from God. Gen. 6:8 “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” Ex. 33:12 “Yet You have said, 'I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.” Ezra 9:8 “And now for a little while grace has been shown from the LORD our God.” Ps. 84:11 “The LORD will give grace and glory; No good thing will He withhold From those who walk uprightly.” 2 Cor. 9:8 “And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.” Rom 6:15: “we are not under law but under grace?”
Furthermore there are other things that cannot be ignored. Mary brought a sacrifice of two turtledoves in accord to Jewish law in Leviticus chapter 12. One was for a burnt offering, the other was for a sin offering. This couldn’t have been for the child who was the Holy one, the sinless spotless lamb of God. This must have been for her own uncleanness. Mary's conformity to the law is an admission she was a sinner needing to be restored by cleansing, only sinners need cleansing.
Another point of contention with the Scripture-- If Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 as Roman Catholics say, it describes her with birth pains which according to the Bible is a judgment on sinners (Gen. 3:15-16).
At the wedding feast of Cana, Mary realizes the wine has run out. She makes Jesus aware of the need, He replies “woman what do I have to do with you, my hour has not yet come.” Jesus felt she was going to reveal who He was before the right time and manner. He let her know He is not subordinate to a persons request, He is not subject to another person's will, not even His own earthly mother, only His Fathers who is in heaven. She had no say in his ministry. Jesus obeyed the law to honor both His Father and his mother, but he would not allow her to choose the time of his disclosure. She receives this correction and then proceeds to tell everyone to listen to her son. Jesus obeyed the commandments of God perfectly as it states “to honor your father and Mother.” In Luke 2:51 we see Jesus was subject to His parents, not Mary alone.
The wages of sin is death, all who sin die. If Mary was sinless she could not have died. Which is what modern Mariology says in Roman Catholicism. What are the ramifications of Mary being sinless? She would be the first human being without sin since Adam. She would qualify to be our substitute just as Jesus, since only a sinless being could redeem mankind. There would have been no need for Jesus. The Bible is clear only God is holy in this way. 1 Sam.2:2 says, “there is no one holy as the Lord,” in Rev.15:4 we see the redeemed singing the song of the lamb in heaven “You alone are Holy.” They are not singing this to Mary! If you are without sin, you are Deity! (this of course means after Eve sinned and before the resurrection where all believers will be changed together to have a completely new nature not having sin). Jesus said of which sin do you accuse me of…He had no accusers, Mary could never say this.
The Bible teaches that whenever God necessitates an exception to a rule or standard He will always state it clearly. For example marriage is a life long bond, Jesus taught that there was one exception. The exception to this commitment which was either death or adultery (Mt.9:19) which gave the one offended a way out if they so chose. We see the rule of sin in mankind is to all people, no exceptions. “All have fallen short of the glory of God” (Rom.3:23). All who have sinned and fall short or deprived of the glory of God. For one to be sinless as Mary is claimed to be means they have the glory of God. Yet God himself states “my glory I will not give another.” The only one who shares in this glory is Jesus (Jn.17:5), Mary did not have God’s glory, only Jesus did. Rom.5:12 tells us sin entered the world through one man and spread to all as death reigned. The only exception is the holy one from all eternity. It took nothing short than deity to accomplish sinlessness in the flesh via the virgin birth. The virgin birth was the vehicle but not a source for his sinlessness. Romans 3:10-12 “As it is written, There is NONE righteous, no, NOT ONE: There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are ALL gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is NONE that doeth good, no, NOT ONE.”
If Mary ascended to heaven like Jesus, this incredible act of someone raised in a resurrection or never dying would certainly be recorded in Scripture. Yet it is suspiciously omitted from John’s writings, the one who she was entrusted to be looked after by Jesus. John’s last book the Revelation was written 85-90 A.D. Neither John nor any historian of the early church records this. This is an unknown doctrinal event that evolved until it was ratified in 1854. Roman Catholic tradition has made speculation into doctrine with Mary being guarded from actual sin by becoming sinless. This concept was around from about the twelfth century, and was developed into a papal decree of December 8, 1854. On November 1, 1950, the bull Munificentissimus Deus declared the dogma of the Assumption of Mary. This dogma asserts “that the Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Mother of God, when the course of her life was finished, was taken up, body and soul, into the glory of heaven” (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 32 [1950], pp. 753-73).
Where does Scripture say Mary is perfect (sinless) in her body without a resurrection? The resurrection is the very event we need to become sinless. Mary's body rests in the ground with the rest of the saints waiting for the resurrection. There are no personal raptures until the first resurrection occurs. That will be when the whole church both the living and the dead are transformed and raised.
Mary waited in the upper room for the Holy Spirit with the rest of the apostles and disciples. Mary was not numbered among the apostles nor is she exalted in any way above their ministry as the 12 pillars of the churches foundation. She is not mentioned in heaven as the apostles are the foundation for the new Jerusalem. Nowhere do we find the apostles conferring with Mary in doctrine. Nor are there any miracles attributed to her as are with the apostles.
Marys sinlessness
Is mary immacualte, did she need to be sinless to have the sinless son of God, did she listen to her son, what do their own scholars say.www.letusreason.org
1) had brothers like James, had kids before and after Yeshu.
2) Matthew shows Joseph was divorcing her from cheating on him.
the Character Rome the Harlot church favored was "the half Roman" son of the Harlot Mary of 100bc. She had Yeshu after a fling with Roman Soldier Pantheras (Panderas) which is why Matthew said Joseph had a mind to divorce her quietly.
He did not want her to be stoned. In this sin she was thus called Stada (stray) for straying from her husband. Yeshu was thus called Yeshu ben Stada.
This is 1 of the reasons the Roman Church is deemed the Harlot Church, the other reasons were due to sleeping with many nations and cultures, and placingvtheir Christ through all the Harlots of the Bible.
Source:
Matthew mentions four sinful harlot women of the bible conveniently and coincidentally in the Joseph genealogy:
1) (Genesis 38:12-19) Tamar who was the one who disguised herself as a harlot to seduce her father-in-law Judah.
2) (Joshua 2:1) Rahab who was a harlot living in the city of Jericho. And note wasn’t even of Jewish lineage, she was a Canaanite. The creators of the legend/image icon in trying to create his lineage and plagiarizing the OT goofed this one big time.
3) (Ruth 3:1-14) Ruth who was the one through her mother-in-law Naomi's request, came secretly to where Boaz was sleeping and spent the night with him. Later Ruth and Boaz were married.
4) (2 Samuel 11:2-5) Bathsheba was the controversial one who became pregnant by King David while she was still married to Uriah.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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I don't give the matter any thought at all.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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I don't have any thoughts or feelings on what you do. It doesn't matter to me if people disagree with the Catholic faith. What matters to me that they understand what the Church actually teaches.
Too many times people haven't a clue what the Church teaches. They twist Catholic belief, and some actually manufacture their own version that does not even come close to Catholic teaching. If someone wants to disagree with Catholic teaching, then disagree they should. However, making something up out of whole cloth, and disagreeing with that, claiming it is Catholic teaching, is a whole other game.
And why do you think I talk with you about it, save to give you the chance to say what they actually teach? In this case, you are trying to explain why a teaching that salvation is found only in the church doesn't mean that someone can't find salvation outside the church.
Why do you think I push you so hard on these points of doctrine? When a church tells me that salvation is found ONLY in that denomination, I take them seriously on it and believe they are telling me I don't have salvation because I'm not a member of that church. It would seem that you don't.
Yet you sublimely believe that no one outside the Catholic Church has salvation. Do you just blindly accept that or have you given thought to it?
Fort Fun Indiana
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I have a solution:
There is no such thing as "sin". Its a childish, magical concept dreamt up by less capable humans living in a more ignorant, more primitive time of our existence and intellectual development.
So just discard this childish, magical idea entirely... and, problem solved!
There is no such thing as "sin". Its a childish, magical concept dreamt up by less capable humans living in a more ignorant, more primitive time of our existence and intellectual development.
So just discard this childish, magical idea entirely... and, problem solved!
Have you ever wronged anyone? If so, did you try to make amends?
It is ironic no one can live up to these images...However when one digs deep into these subjects and pulls off the layers of deception the emperor or in this case the empress Mary is exposed as being without substance and her nakedness is open for all to see if they were not constantly keeping their eyes shut to the naked truth....Sort of like that monkey that will hear no evil see no evil and speak no evil...Evil.. is being the opposite of Live whi h she did but only in the pages of a book and the imaginations of her followers ...
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