Zone1 Mary's sinlessness

[rstrats]

Did the Messiah know that the wine had run out before Mary mentioned it?

 

[hadit]

Experience tells me otherwise. You have already decided what is right--at least for you--and rail against anything else. You do not listen, you do not see any perspective other than your own.

I listen, and present Biblical reasons if I don't agree. I look for more than just a perspective if it's presented as dogma.

 

[Meriweather]

I listen, and present Biblical reasons if I don't agree. I look for more than just a perspective if it's presented as dogma.

Let's take a page from your playbook: The response is to ignore the presentation and tell the presenter what is "really" happening--i.e., worshiping Mary, not honoring her. So I'll play that card: What you are "really" doing is looking for an opportunity, not to listen and understand, but to tell someone how wrong they are.

 

[hadit]

Let's take a page from your playbook: The response is to ignore the presentation and tell the presenter what is "really" happening--i.e., worshiping Mary, not honoring her. So I'll play that card: What you are "really" doing is looking for an opportunity, not to listen and understand, but to tell someone how wrong they are.

On the contrary, I heard what you told me about honoring, not worshipping Mary and I don't accuse YOU of doing it. Haven't you noticed? I take what you tell me and respond accordingly. If you do not worship Mary, I don't accuse you of worshipping Mary.

I do have a question for you. One of your fellow Catholics has been stating on this board that the Catholic Church says there is no salvation outside of Catholicism. This is not me accusing anyone of anything, it is me noting what someone has said. Based on what you've said, I don't think you believe that, BUT:

1. Is it actual Church doctrine?
2. If it is and you don't believe it, why not?
3. If it is and you do believe it, do you understand why I would then accuse you of dividing the Body of Christ, because essentially you would be saying that only Catholics are Christians and everybody else is not?

 

[ding]

rstrats

You tell me.

 

[Meriweather]

I do have a question for you. One of your fellow Catholics has been stating on this board that the Catholic Church says there is no salvation outside of Catholicism. This is not me accusing anyone of anything, it is me noting what someone has said. Based on what you've said, I don't think you believe that, BUT:

1. Is it actual Church doctrine?
2. If it is and you don't believe it, why not?
3. If it is and you do believe it, do you understand why I would then accuse you of dividing the Body of Christ, because essentially you would be saying that only Catholics are Christians and everybody else is not?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I do believe it, but I also keep in mind that the Catechism of the Catholic Church also states that God is more powerful than the Church, and His is the final judgment. Here is what I posted in the other thread:

Let's take a look at what Jesus says according to the Bible.

Salvation is from the Jews. (John 4)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mark 16:16)
Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:54)


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)

Many non-Catholic Christian churches do not believe in the true presence of Christ--body, blood, soul, and divinity--in the Eucharist. They give another explanation for what Christ "really" meant. Scripture, tradition, and outside historical sources affirm Christ's true presence in the Eucharist was practiced from earliest Christianity until Protestants began practicing a different belief about fifteen hundred years later. Another scriptural verse: Who is not with me is against me, and he who does gather with me, scatters. (Matthew 12:30)

It should be remembered that the Catholic Church also teaches that non-Catholic Christian churches are members of the Body of Christ.

At every Mass the Catholic Church teaches the Old Testament (from the Jews). It teaches Baptism (a sacrament), Repentance and Reconciliation (a sacrament), the full presence of Christ in the Eucharist (a sacrament).

Perhaps the question should be, Must a follower of Christ observe all of Jesus' points for salvation as the Catholic Church observes; or can salvation be at hand for someone who observes even just one of the four points of salvation?

The OP of the other thread opined that loving one's neighbor (which Jesus taught as well) is all that is needed for salvation.

 

[forkintheroad7]

Pretty sure that's covered under "......all have sinned and come short....."

No, it's under writings on the Ark of the Covenant

The Old Ark which held the mercy seat and was where God tangibly came to visit His people, is lost, as you may know. . although some say it is in a remote region of (I believe it is) Ethiopia.

In any case, the old Ark held the 10 Commandments and later golden "emrods" and manna.

The new Ark is Mary

who held in her womb not physical items but God Himself..

Book of Revelation and etc...

 

[forkintheroad7]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I do believe it, but I also keep in mind that the Catechism of the Catholic Church also states that God is more powerful than the Church, and His is the final judgment. Here is what I posted in the other thread:



It should be remembered that the Catholic Church also teaches that non-Catholic Christian churches are members of the Body of Christ.

That is NOT true.

The Vatican teaches that.

The True Catholic Church does not, and never has.

The Church didn't teach that (what you say)... directly after Luther broke with the Church... didn't teach that at the time of Vatican II, and still today teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Only the corrupted, taken-over (by infiltrator anti-Catholics) Vatican folks teach this heresy (and a plethora of others).

People need to Search this discrepancy.

Even as a Catholic, I always had a hard time believing there is no salvation outside the Church... and yet life itself has shown me it is true.

That's a LONG story and nobody here would believe me anyway... so I'll mosey along in the interest of not wanting to waste time

 

[forkintheroad7]

She was not only without original sin. She was without any sin at all and full of original innocence. Otherwise she had not been able to become the mother of god on her own totally free will.

True story.

If God would kill Oza, the man who touched the old Ark of the Covenant improperly just because it was leaning the wrong way (Only the Levite priests were allowed to touch it),

no way would He allow his son to be in the womb of a sinner.

 

[forkintheroad7]

She had the right to decline and make a moral choice. Therefore, she is also born into a state of mortality that Adam fell into. Catholics have changed a lot of doctrines over the centuries. The conception at that time in history was certainly an immaculate thing to have happened. Today, we call it in-vitro fertilization. A simple procedure.

the true Catholic Church did not change any doctrines. It is only the taken-over Vatican that does that.

Sheez.. I wish people would learn the truth before they presume to know it...

 

[Manonthestreet]

No, it's under writings on the Ark of the Covenant

The Old Ark which held the mercy seat and was where God tangibly came to visit His people, is lost, as you may know. . although some say it is in a remote region of (I believe it is) Ethiopia.

In any case, the old Ark held the 10 Commandments and later golden "emrods" and manna.

The new Ark is Mary

who held in her womb not physical items but God Himself..

Book of Revelation and etc...

Some feverish imagination right there

 

[Cougarbear]

the true Catholic Church did not change any doctrines. It is only the taken-over Vatican that does that.

Sheez.. I wish people would learn the truth before they presume to know it...

So funny! There's but one Catholic Church. Started in Rome and still there at the Vatican. Your truth isn't truth. Doesn't matter. That church, your church are all in a state of apostasy.

 

[hadit]

That is NOT true.

The Vatican teaches that.

The True Catholic Church does not, and never has.

The Church didn't teach that (what you say)... directly after Luther broke with the Church... didn't teach that at the time of Vatican II, and still today teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Only the corrupted, taken-over (by infiltrator anti-Catholics) Vatican folks teach this heresy (and a plethora of others).

People need to Search this discrepancy.

Even as a Catholic, I always had a hard time believing there is no salvation outside the Church... and yet life itself has shown me it is true.

That's a LONG story and nobody here would believe me anyway... so I'll mosey along in the interest of not wanting to waste time

What are you going to say to God when you realize you're surrounded by Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. as you stand before the throne? Are you going to demand a "Catholics only" room for yourself?

 

[hadit]

So funny! There's but one Catholic Church. Started in Rome and still there at the Vatican. Your truth isn't truth. Doesn't matter. That church, your church are all in a state of apostasy.

It sounds to me like the belief is, "The Church is right, whether it's right or wrong".

 

[hadit]

True story.

If God would kill Oza, the man who touched the old Ark of the Covenant improperly just because it was leaning the wrong way (Only the Levite priests were allowed to touch it),

no way would He allow his son to be in the womb of a sinner.

And yet He would allow such a pure being to come from the womb of a sinner? Both of Mary's parents were sinners.

 

[hadit]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I do believe it, but I also keep in mind that the Catechism of the Catholic Church also states that God is more powerful than the Church, and His is the final judgment. Here is what I posted in the other thread:

Let's take a look at what Jesus says according to the Bible.

Salvation is from the Jews. (John 4)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mark 16:16)
Unless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:54)


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)

Many non-Catholic Christian churches do not believe in the true presence of Christ--body, blood, soul, and divinity--in the Eucharist. They give another explanation for what Christ "really" meant. Scripture, tradition, and outside historical sources affirm Christ's true presence in the Eucharist was practiced from earliest Christianity until Protestants began practicing a different belief about fifteen hundred years later. Another scriptural verse: Who is not with me is against me, and he who does gather with me, scatters. (Matthew 12:30)

It should be remembered that the Catholic Church also teaches that non-Catholic Christian churches are members of the Body of Christ.

At every Mass the Catholic Church teaches the Old Testament (from the Jews). It teaches Baptism (a sacrament), Repentance and Reconciliation (a sacrament), the full presence of Christ in the Eucharist (a sacrament).

Perhaps the question should be, Must a follower of Christ observe all of Jesus' points for salvation as the Catholic Church observes; or can salvation be at hand for someone who observes even just one of the four points of salvation?

The OP of the other thread opined that loving one's neighbor (which Jesus taught as well) is all that is needed for salvation.

I see you equivocating, and that's understandable. On the one hand, you want to believe strongly that the Church is correct, you don't want to believe they could get that wrong. I get that desire, but OTOH, you know from Scripture and through the prompting of the Holy Spirit that Jesus does not restrict His body to the name over the church door, and you know that there will be millions of Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. before the throne. I commend that.

I've found things in the denominations I've been part of with which I disagree. Now, I try to obey them if I am a member, but I recognize that their stances on things are not necessarily Biblical. I grew up a Conservative Mennonite and disagreed with their prohibition on musical instruments in church and on dancing of any kind, both flying in the face of Scripture. I belonged to an Assembly of God church for a while and disagreed with their stance that speaking in tongues was the sign of salvation and you weren't saved unless you did.

Jesus made it clear that the two greatest commandments were matters of the heart, not of tradition or sacrament, nor of belonging to an organization. The entire Law is wrapped up in us loving God with all we have and loving our neighbors like we love ourselves. I trust God to make it clear to me if there is something I need to be doing that I'm not doing, stop doing something I'm doing, or do something differently. So, yes, we can argue over theology but at the end of the day can recognize each other as brothers and sisters. I find what forkintheroad7 is doing in this thread to be abominable and that's why I asked if you agreed with him.

 

[Cougarbear]

It sounds to me like the belief is, "The Church is right, whether it's right or wrong".

No! There is only one Church that has the only authority to speak on behalf of the Lord. It’s not Catholic of any kind,Orthodox of any kind, Protestant of any kind, Judaism of any kind, gentile of any kind and anything else of any kind except one, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[Meriweather]

I see you equivocating, and that's understandable. On the one hand, you want to believe strongly that the Church is correct, you don't want to believe they could get that wrong. I get that desire, but OTOH, you know from Scripture and through the prompting of the Holy Spirit that Jesus does not restrict His body to the name over the church door, and you know that there will be millions of Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. before the throne. I commend that.

I've found things in the denominations I've been part of with which I disagree. Now, I try to obey them if I am a member, but I recognize that their stances on things are not necessarily Biblical. I grew up a Conservative Mennonite and disagreed with their prohibition on musical instruments in church and on dancing of any kind, both flying in the face of Scripture. I belonged to an Assembly of God church for a while and disagreed with their stance that speaking in tongues was the sign of salvation and you weren't saved unless you did.

Jesus made it clear that the two greatest commandments were matters of the heart, not of tradition or sacrament, nor of belonging to an organization. The entire Law is wrapped up in us loving God with all we have and loving our neighbors like we love ourselves. I trust God to make it clear to me if there is something I need to be doing that I'm not doing, stop doing something I'm doing, or do something differently. So, yes, we can argue over theology but at the end of the day can recognize each other as brothers and sisters. I find what forkintheroad7 is doing in this thread to be abominable and that's why I asked if you agreed with him.

Oh, great. Another post from you explaining what I am "really" saying. No, I am not equivocating, but since that is what you sincerely believe go with it instead of asking for further understanding.

 

[hadit]

Oh, great. Another post from you explaining what I am "really" saying. No, I am not equivocating, but since that is what you sincerely believe go with it instead of asking for further understanding.

You stated:

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church states there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I do believe it, but I also keep in mind that the Catechism of the Catholic Church also states that God is more powerful than the Church".

That leads me to the conclusion that you admit the Church DOES claim exclusive ownership of the avenue to salvation, but simultaneously the Church says, "Not really", because God is greater than the Church. IOW, it's not an absolute, as is being preached by that other Catholic on here.

It sounds to me like you're saying you really, really want to wholeheartedly believe and support the statement, but you can't because you know it's not really true.

Here's where the rubber meets the road. When you stand before God's throne in worship and you look around, are you rubbing elbows with untold millions of Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc. or do you envision only Catholics with a bare sprinkling of others?

 

[Cougarbear]

I see you equivocating, and that's understandable. On the one hand, you want to believe strongly that the Church is correct, you don't want to believe they could get that wrong. I get that desire, but OTOH, you know from Scripture and through the prompting of the Holy Spirit that Jesus does not restrict His body to the name over the church door, and you know that there will be millions of Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. before the throne. I commend that.

I've found things in the denominations I've been part of with which I disagree. Now, I try to obey them if I am a member, but I recognize that their stances on things are not necessarily Biblical. I grew up a Conservative Mennonite and disagreed with their prohibition on musical instruments in church and on dancing of any kind, both flying in the face of Scripture. I belonged to an Assembly of God church for a while and disagreed with their stance that speaking in tongues was the sign of salvation and you weren't saved unless you did.

Jesus made it clear that the two greatest commandments were matters of the heart, not of tradition or sacrament, nor of belonging to an organization. The entire Law is wrapped up in us loving God with all we have and loving our neighbors like we love ourselves. I trust God to make it clear to me if there is something I need to be doing that I'm not doing, stop doing something I'm doing, or do something differently. So, yes, we can argue over theology but at the end of the day can recognize each other as brothers and sisters. I find what forkintheroad7 is doing in this thread to be abominable and that's why I asked if you agreed with him.

Jesus was clear to do all in his name. So, what is above the door, beside it, wherever, it better be named the Church of Jesus Christ. That eliminates most churches and you can focus on the one that is the true church of Jesus Christ.

There are doctrines and commandments. Then, there are administrative directives for a church. Many have a difficult time differentiating these. The Southern Baptist are the ones who preach against dancing and musical instruments. But, that isn't actually their doctrine nor a commandment. It's an administration directive that many again think it's their doctrine. Yet, it's not in the scriptures so it can't be. Growing up, a friend of mine who lived across the street, his dad was a Southern Baptist minister. His son played the guitar and sang. I played the drums and one time, he asked us to come in and play a song with Christian words in it. So, that told me it's not doctrine about music in general. And, the dancing, he let his kids go to the school dances. He cautioned them about how they danced and they mostly obeyed him.

What you are doing also is weak and more administrative. Yes, he gave two commandments and some other. But, to mean to get rid of all other commandments and ignore all the other ordinances required for salvation and exaltation is again, illogical. Jesus gave Apostles, prophets, evangelists, preachers, priests, teachers, deacons and so on. He also called the Seventy also. Yes, he most certainly had established a Church and most likely after His name. He clearly stated that to enter into the kingdom of God, Heaven, you had to be baptized by emersion in water and by fire meaning receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those with authority to do so. Sounds like a Church was established and congregations all over the middle east and into Rome. The problem was, they all apostatized within a few decades after the Lord's crucifixion. So, if there's a true Church with the True authority, it would have to be one that was a restoration, not a continuance or split off.