Let's Talk About Scripture

[Quantum Windbag]

Side note: I thought the OP was going to be involved in the discussion more.

I think my demand that he justify his position that everyone else is wrong gave him heartburn.

 

[Avatar4321]

Side note: I thought the OP was going to be involved in the discussion more.

I think my demand that he justify his position that everyone else is wrong gave him heartburn.

I know. He should know by now that everyone but me is wrong jk

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Side note: I thought the OP was going to be involved in the discussion more.

I think my demand that he justify his position that everyone else is wrong gave him heartburn.

I know. He should know by now that everyone but me is wrong jk

Why ius it you do not remind these people there is no trinity? How come you do not remind them no one has gone to heaven except Jesus? 2 Major points of faith and you ignore them, why is that?

 

[Avatar4321]

I think my demand that he justify his position that everyone else is wrong gave him heartburn.

I know. He should know by now that everyone but me is wrong jk

Why ius it you do not remind these people there is no trinity? How come you do not remind them no one has gone to heaven except Jesus? 2 Major points of faith and you ignore them, why is that?

Because they aren't.

The First article of faith of our Church is:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

It doesn't really matter what you call them as far as I'm concerned. Call them the Trinity. Call them the Godhead. Call them nothing or anything. We still believe in the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost.

It's true we don't define them by the post-biblical creeds. We believe they are Three separate beings united and one in purpose. But, i dont think most people do believe in the creeds. and it doesnt matter to me what they call them.

And, sorry, but you're wrong. Christ isn't the only one who has been taken to Heaven.

Enoch and the City of Zion
Moses
Elijah
Mormon speculated that Alma the Younger was translated and taken into the presence of God as well.

Plenty of people have been resurrected as the scriptures indicated. I have no reason to doubt that they have entered into the precense of God.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have three basic rules in discussing scripture:

1. Nothing productive will ever come from discussing scripture in anger, judgmentalism, or for the purpose of attacking another person. (And for those who are believers, I think it probably really grieves God and/or the Holy spirit when we do that.)

2. Otherwise one person's question or comment is as good as anybody else's question or comment and there are no wrong questions.

3. Only by looking at the scriptures through the eyes, culture, experience, and understanding of those who wrote down the words, and by keeping the words in their full context and setting, can we hope to understand their meaning.

 

[Avatar4321]

I have three basic rules in discussing scripture:

1. Nothing productive will ever come from discussing scripture in anger, judgmentalism, or for the purpose of attacking another person. (And for those who are believers, I think it probably really grieves God and/or the Holy spirit when we do that.)

2. Otherwise one person's question or comment is as good as anybody else's question or comment and there are no wrong questions.

3. Only by looking at the scriptures through the eyes, culture, experience, and understanding of those who wrote down the words, and by keeping the words in their full context and setting, can we hope to understand their meaning.

I completely agree with those three rules. Though I think the Spirit might support some answers more than others.

And it does grieve the Spirit when we are anger or judgmental or using them to attack people. I would also add, that the Spirit is angry when we use the scriptures to gratify our own pride in some way. Say we are trying to win a debate rather than to bring people to Him.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have three basic rules in discussing scripture:

1. Nothing productive will ever come from discussing scripture in anger, judgmentalism, or for the purpose of attacking another person. (And for those who are believers, I think it probably really grieves God and/or the Holy spirit when we do that.)

2. Otherwise one person's question or comment is as good as anybody else's question or comment and there are no wrong questions.

3. Only by looking at the scriptures through the eyes, culture, experience, and understanding of those who wrote down the words, and by keeping the words in their full context and setting, can we hope to understand their meaning.

I completely agree with those three rules. Though I think the Spirit might support some answers more than others.

And it does grieve the Spirit when we are anger or judgmental or using them to attack people. I would also add, that the Spirit is angry when we use the scriptures to gratify our own pride in some way. Say we are trying to win a debate rather than to bring people to Him.

Trying to be right at all costs, most especially at cost of the truth, I would agree. But debating the issues as an exercise in itself for the enjoyment of the participants or for the education of those capable of thinking criticially? I can't imagine God has a problem with that since it has been going on since the days of Abraham forward, and God has preserved us all through overwhelming odds for all these millenia.

I don't see it as my job to bring anybody to Him. It is my job to arrange the meeting when I am directed to do so. But He takes it from there. And then my assignment is to do the necessary mentoring, teaching, and nurturing to make disciples.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I know. He should know by now that everyone but me is wrong jk

Why ius it you do not remind these people there is no trinity? How come you do not remind them no one has gone to heaven except Jesus? 2 Major points of faith and you ignore them, why is that?

Because they aren't.

The First article of faith of our Church is:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

It doesn't really matter what you call them as far as I'm concerned. Call them the Trinity. Call them the Godhead. Call them nothing or anything. We still believe in the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost.

It's true we don't define them by the post-biblical creeds. We believe they are Three separate beings united and one in purpose. But, i dont think most people do believe in the creeds. and it doesnt matter to me what they call them.

And, sorry, but you're wrong. Christ isn't the only one who has been taken to Heaven.

Enoch and the City of Zion
Moses
Elijah
Mormon speculated that Alma the Younger was translated and taken into the presence of God as well.

Plenty of people have been resurrected as the scriptures indicated. I have no reason to doubt that they have entered into the precense of God.

Well just one small problem with your claim. In John we are told NO MAN has ascended to Heaven that did not descend first. We are further told that there will be an emptying of the graves and the seas of the dead on Judgement day. If they are already in heaven why would that need to happen?

Just admit that rather then put people off with inconvenient truths you would rather do as the Catholic Church does and deceive them with either out right lies or misinformation to reel them in on false beliefs.

 

[Avatar4321]

Well just one small problem with your claim. In John we are told NO MAN has ascended to Heaven that did not descend first. We are further told that there will be an emptying of the graves and the seas of the dead on Judgement day. If they are already in heaven why would that need to happen?

Just admit that rather then put people off with inconvenient truths you would rather do as the Catholic Church does and deceive them with either out right lies or misinformation to reel them in on false beliefs.

Why would I admit that when it's not true?

There will be an emptying of the graves and the seas. That will be for those who have not yet risen in the resurrection. But the scriptures are clear that some have been raised already.

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many (Matthew 27:52-53)

Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Samuel, the Lamanite, that he should testify unto this people, that at the day that the Father should glorify his name in me that there were many saints who should arise from the dead, and should appear unto many, and should minister unto them. And he said unto them: Was it not so?

And his disciples answered him and said: Yea, Lord, Samuel did prophesy according to thy words, and they were all fulfilled.

And Jesus said unto them: How be it that ye have not written this thing, that many saints did arise and appear unto many and did minister unto them?

And it came to pass that Nephi remembered that this thing had not been written.

And it came to pass that Jesus commanded that it should be written; therefore it was written according as he commanded. (3 Nephi 23:9-13)

As you can see, Both the Bible and Book of Mormon both attest that the dead rose at the Resurrection of Christ. So the Resurrection of others has occured.

i think Alma said it clearest:

Behold, there is a time appointed that all shall come forth from the dead. Now when this time cometh no one knows; but God knoweth the time which is appointed.

Now, whether there shall be one time, or a second time, or a third time, that men shall come forth from the dead, it mattereth not; for God knoweth all these things; and it sufficeth me to know that this is the case—that there is a time appointed that all shall rise from the dead.

Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men. (Alma 40:4-5, 8)

So yes, men have been risen from the dead, before the day of judgment. The scriptures testify to it. The Restoration of the Gospel occured through the ministering of angels. And Those Angels were men resurrected through Christ. John the Baptist. Peter, James, John.*

* John was a translated being.

Enoch and His city were translated and brought into the precense of God.

And it came to pass that the Lord showed unto Enoch all the inhabitants of the earth; and he beheld, and lo, Zion, in process of time, was taken up into heaven. And the Lord said unto Enoch: Behold mine abode forever (Moses 7:21)

Elijah was translated and taken into Heaven as well:

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11)

Tradition has it that Moses was likewise translated. The reason becomes clear when we looked to the Mount of Transfiguration. Where Moses and Elijah appeared to Christ, Peter, James and John, likely to give them the Priesthood keys they held for that Dispensation. After all, it was just shortly before that Christ promised to confer upon Peter and others the power to seal in heaven things that were sealed on earth, and loose in heaven things that were loosed on earth. Elijah was the last one written of in the Bible to hold those keys, so it seems logical that is one of the reasons his life was spared.

So as I said earlier, I can't admit what isn't true. the scriptures are clear on these truths. But you don't have to take my word for it. Study the scriptures for yourself and go before the Lord and Ask Him if these things are true. The Spirit will tell you the Truth about whether I am correct or I am mistaken. I have no doubt about that. I expect Him to tell me the same.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yanno, after living a long life I'm convinced that God honors pretty much whatever we believe so long as we're trying to obey and please Him. As Paul described it, now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. "Then" we are likely going to find that God really isn't all that interested in our theology but cares about how we live our lives. AndI think we're going to be really surprised at how wrong we got a lot of this.

And I think we're going to be surprised who we find there.

(Having said all that, I still find the scriptures fascinating, instructive, uplifting, inspiring, and most helpful and I thoroughly enjoy discussing them.)

 

[The Irish Ram]

Sgt, You can't condemn Catholics for misinformation when it is something that you are guilty of as well.
There is a Trinity and there are humans in Heaven.

Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus that no son of man except Him, has ever ascended to confer with God and then descended to impart that knowledge. It had nothing to do with humans or souls.
Here, listen to the conversation:
John 3:11-12 - Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Here is an example of that:
Mt 17: 1-9
After six days Jesus took with Him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. He said, “Get up. Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up they saw no one except Jesus.

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Do not tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

We are further told that there will be an emptying of the graves and the seas of the dead on Judgement day. If they are already in heaven why would that need to happen?

Only those that accepted the gift of salvation are in Heaven. The saved. Those that died in Christ. And only temporarily.
During the rapture, their graves will open and they will be reunited with their own restored, glorified bodies.
Because they will be returning with Christ to fight the battle of Armageddon and remain on earth ruling and reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years.
Then comes the White Throne Judgement, conducted right here on earth, for those that chose to hold onto their sin.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Sgt, You can't condemn Catholics for misinformation when it is something that you are guilty of as well.
There is a Trinity and there are humans in Heaven.

Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus that no son of man except Him, has ever ascended to confer with God and then descended to impart that knowledge. It had nothing to do with humans or souls.
Here, listen to the conversation:
John 3:11-12 - Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Here is an example of that:
Mt 17: 1-9
After six days Jesus took with Him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. He said, “Get up. Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up they saw no one except Jesus.

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Do not tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

We are further told that there will be an emptying of the graves and the seas of the dead on Judgement day. If they are already in heaven why would that need to happen?

Only those that accepted the gift of salvation are in Heaven. The saved. Those that died in Christ. And only temporarily.
During the rapture, their graves will open and they will be reunited with their own restored, glorified bodies.
Because they will be returning with Christ to fight the battle of Armageddon and remain on earth ruling and reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years.
Then comes the White Throne Judgement, conducted right here on earth, for those that chose to hold onto their sin.

Delusional beliefs are well delusional.

 

[BreezeWood]

Sgt, You can't condemn Catholics for misinformation when it is something that you are guilty of as well.
There is a Trinity and there are humans in Heaven.

Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus that no son of man except Him, has ever ascended to confer with God and then descended to impart that knowledge. It had nothing to do with humans or souls.
Here, listen to the conversation:
John 3:11-12 - Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Here is an example of that:
Mt 17: 1-9
After six days Jesus took with Him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. He said, “Get up. Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up they saw no one except Jesus.

9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Do not tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

We are further told that there will be an emptying of the graves and the seas of the dead on Judgement day. If they are already in heaven why would that need to happen?

Only those that accepted the gift of salvation are in Heaven. The saved. Those that died in Christ. And only temporarily.
During the rapture, their graves will open and they will be reunited with their own restored, glorified bodies.
Because they will be returning with Christ to fight the battle of Armageddon and remain on earth ruling and reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years.
Then comes the White Throne Judgement, conducted right here on earth, for those that chose to hold onto their sin.

Delusional beliefs are well delusional.

and written by the Crucifiers, as from year zero and their triumph the literature has been their domain.

Edit:

what do today's "Christians" believe happened to those who committed the crime and were never prosecuted - their negative beliefs flourishing while that of the Saint and True Believers have since that time been suppressed.

the Reformations - True Believers against the descendant Criminals.

the year Zero must be reversed before Remission the goal set by God will be possible.