Lessons From Sodom

PoliticalChic

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1.Central to the discussion, of course, is the issue of homosexuality.
Perhaps the discussion itself is redundant, as modern society appears to find such as simply peachy keen. I have friends who are of that persuasion, a few are homosexual, and a number of very conservative pals simply believe the issue is of no concern vis-à-vis government policy.

But, as the Bible is of fundamental importance to our Founders, and the in the memorializing documents of our founding, understanding the lessons in biblical teachings, it remains a pertinent discussion, if only in the abstract.



2. “In the New Testament (NT), there are at least three passages that refer to homosexual activity: Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:9–10. A fourth passage, Jude 1:7, is often interpreted as referring to homosexuality. Jesus discusses marriage only in a heterosexual context when he cites the Book of Genesis during a discussion of marriage (Matthew 19:4–6 and Mark 10:6–9).” Homosexuality in the New Testament - Wikipedia



To expand my understanding of the Old Testament, Dennis Prager’s “Genesis,” is highly easy to read, and his is explanations include translating the Hebrew, …and Genesis 18 and 19 are….eye opening.

3. The Jews are not present in the Bible until chapter 11 of Genesis, indicating that the Bible is about all people. Abraham is the first Jew, selected by God, and in Genesis 18:19, God says he picked Abraham, and hints that what He is about to do to Sodom is a lesson Abraham should teach his children.

“…for I have chosen him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice; so that the LORD may bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.’”

The question is why he is about to destroy the city of Sodom.

“The Torah revealed ethical monotheism, and this is the verse that summarizes what it means. For the first time, the Torah explicitly states God’s purpose for Abraham and his descendants: to do what is just and right and, implicitly, to teach it to the world.” Prager

Perhaps the concepts have changed in the modern world.

But….about the city of Sodom: Genesis 18.20 Then the Lord said, “The outrage of Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave!




4. First is God's 'investigation' of Sodom, to see if it deserved destruction.
When Reagan said this about the Soviet Union, “Trust…but verify!,” it was almost an echo of the next verse, where God says he will double-check Sodom, just in case the people have repented.

“One lesson taught here is the need to establish facts before passing judgment; even God does so. One should not condemn, let alone punish, on the basis of hearsay. A second lesson is that God judges all people—and does so according to one set of moral rules. This was an utterly new idea in human history. Unlike pagan gods, who acted according to irrational and amoral whims, God is morally predictable.”
Prager



A Roman Catholic scholar, Father Edward Flannery, drew the same conclusion: “It was Judaism that brought the concept of a God-given universal moral law into the world . . . and willingly or not . . . the Jew carries the burden of God in history and for this has never been forgiven.” ‘The Greatest Hatred in Human History’

Wow!

Jews punished by Western Civilization for not allowing folks to be being able to pretend not to know right from wrong.
 
& i would be careful about using genesis' story about sodom & gomorrah as an argument against homosexuality....
 
1.Central to the discussion, of course, is the issue of homosexuality.
Perhaps the discussion itself is redundant, as modern society appears to find such as simply peachy keen. I have friends who are of that persuasion, a few are homosexual, and a number of very conservative pals simply believe the issue is of no concern vis-à-vis government policy.

But, as the Bible is of fundamental importance to our Founders, and the in the memorializing documents of our founding, understanding the lessons in biblical teachings, it remains a pertinent discussion, if only in the abstract.



2. “In the New Testament (NT), there are at least three passages that refer to homosexual activity: Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:9–10. A fourth passage, Jude 1:7, is often interpreted as referring to homosexuality. Jesus discusses marriage only in a heterosexual context when he cites the Book of Genesis during a discussion of marriage (Matthew 19:4–6 and Mark 10:6–9).” Homosexuality in the New Testament - Wikipedia



To expand my understanding of the Old Testament, Dennis Prager’s “Genesis,” is highly easy to read, and his is explanations include translating the Hebrew, …and Genesis 18 and 19 are….eye opening.

3. The Jews are not present in the Bible until chapter 11 of Genesis, indicating that the Bible is about all people. Abraham is the first Jew, selected by God, and in Genesis 18:19, God says he picked Abraham, and hints that what He is about to do to Sodom is a lesson Abraham should teach his children.

“…for I have chosen him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice; so that the LORD may bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.’”

The question is why he is about to destroy the city of Sodom.

“The Torah revealed ethical monotheism, and this is the verse that summarizes what it means. For the first time, the Torah explicitly states God’s purpose for Abraham and his descendants: to do what is just and right and, implicitly, to teach it to the world.” Prager

Perhaps the concepts have changed in the modern world.

But….about the city of Sodom: Genesis 18.20 Then the Lord said, “The outrage of Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave!




4. First is God's 'investigation' of Sodom, to see if it deserved destruction.
When Reagan said this about the Soviet Union, “Trust…but verify!,” it was almost an echo of the next verse, where God says he will double-check Sodom, just in case the people have repented.

“One lesson taught here is the need to establish facts before passing judgment; even God does so. One should not condemn, let alone punish, on the basis of hearsay. A second lesson is that God judges all people—and does so according to one set of moral rules. This was an utterly new idea in human history. Unlike pagan gods, who acted according to irrational and amoral whims, God is morally predictable.”
Prager



A Roman Catholic scholar, Father Edward Flannery, drew the same conclusion: “It was Judaism that brought the concept of a God-given universal moral law into the world . . . and willingly or not . . . the Jew carries the burden of God in history and for this has never been forgiven.” ‘The Greatest Hatred in Human History’

Wow!

Jews punished by Western Civilization for not allowing folks to be being able to pretend not to know right from wrong.

A couple of corrections are needed here, thumpy. The Bibles were not of fundamental importance to our founders. Many of the founders were decidedly non xtian and non-religious. As we know (excluding you from “we know”, part), there was no mention of any bibles in the Constitution drafted by the founders.

You have a continuing pattern of behavior where you insist on re-writing the Constitution and attempting to force your extremist religious beliefs on the founders.

Go away. Scoot.
 
1.Central to the discussion, of course, is the issue of homosexuality.
Perhaps the discussion itself is redundant, as modern society appears to find such as simply peachy keen. I have friends who are of that persuasion, a few are homosexual, and a number of very conservative pals simply believe the issue is of no concern vis-à-vis government policy.

But, as the Bible is of fundamental importance to our Founders, and the in the memorializing documents of our founding, understanding the lessons in biblical teachings, it remains a pertinent discussion, if only in the abstract.



2. “In the New Testament (NT), there are at least three passages that refer to homosexual activity: Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:9–10. A fourth passage, Jude 1:7, is often interpreted as referring to homosexuality. Jesus discusses marriage only in a heterosexual context when he cites the Book of Genesis during a discussion of marriage (Matthew 19:4–6 and Mark 10:6–9).” Homosexuality in the New Testament - Wikipedia



To expand my understanding of the Old Testament, Dennis Prager’s “Genesis,” is highly easy to read, and his is explanations include translating the Hebrew, …and Genesis 18 and 19 are….eye opening.

3. The Jews are not present in the Bible until chapter 11 of Genesis, indicating that the Bible is about all people. Abraham is the first Jew, selected by God, and in Genesis 18:19, God says he picked Abraham, and hints that what He is about to do to Sodom is a lesson Abraham should teach his children.

“…for I have chosen him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice; so that the LORD may bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.’”

The question is why he is about to destroy the city of Sodom.

“The Torah revealed ethical monotheism, and this is the verse that summarizes what it means. For the first time, the Torah explicitly states God’s purpose for Abraham and his descendants: to do what is just and right and, implicitly, to teach it to the world.” Prager

Perhaps the concepts have changed in the modern world.

But….about the city of Sodom: Genesis 18.20 Then the Lord said, “The outrage of Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave!




4. First is God's 'investigation' of Sodom, to see if it deserved destruction.
When Reagan said this about the Soviet Union, “Trust…but verify!,” it was almost an echo of the next verse, where God says he will double-check Sodom, just in case the people have repented.

“One lesson taught here is the need to establish facts before passing judgment; even God does so. One should not condemn, let alone punish, on the basis of hearsay. A second lesson is that God judges all people—and does so according to one set of moral rules. This was an utterly new idea in human history. Unlike pagan gods, who acted according to irrational and amoral whims, God is morally predictable.”
Prager



A Roman Catholic scholar, Father Edward Flannery, drew the same conclusion: “It was Judaism that brought the concept of a God-given universal moral law into the world . . . and willingly or not . . . the Jew carries the burden of God in history and for this has never been forgiven.” ‘The Greatest Hatred in Human History’

Wow!

Jews punished by Western Civilization for not allowing folks to be being able to pretend not to know right from wrong.

A couple of corrections are needed here, thumpy. The Bibles were not of fundamental importance to our founders. Many of the founders were decidedly non xtian and non-religious. As we know (excluding you from “we know”, part), there was no mention of any bibles in the Constitution drafted by the founders.

You have a continuing pattern of behavior where you insist on re-writing the Constitution and attempting to force your extremist religious beliefs on the founders.

Go away. Scoot.

Talk about rewriting history...

The Bible wasn’t important to them?

By the way, Barack Obama was against gay marriage. Is he an extremist too?
 
Wow, nothing like refusing to live in the modern world...

So the Bible says homosexuality is a sin... an ancient book written by men... let's see... here are a few things the Bible says are okay, perhaps we should work them into modern society...

Death to those that commit adultery.

If an man and woman have sex during the time the woman is having a period they shall be punished by the community.

That if a man thinks his pregnant wife was unfaithful that he should bring her to the priest to be poisoned causing a miscarriage as a test to see if she really was unfaithful.

That it is appropriate to kill your rebellious children.

That not only is it OK to own slaves but that you can beat them to the point where as long as they don't die with 48 hours then you aren't guilty of anything.

That you can sell your daughters to others as a sex slave.

That a woman should be forced to marry a man that rapes her and the man has to pay her father money.

That it is OK for have sex with your daughters if "they got you drunk enough."

If a woman doesn't yell loud enough when being raped she should be put to death. But only if the woman is married, aka the property, of another man.



That's just a few of the glorious things...

Funny that the Bible condemns homosexuality between men, calling for their death, but make no mention of lesbians. Must be they're okay... I guess we know what kind of porn the men who wrote the book enjoyed...

All things being equal, I say we let the gays stay.
 
& i would be careful about using genesis' story about sodom & gomorrah as an argument against homosexuality....


Read more carefully.....there is no argument here against homosexuality.

It is simply an investigation of the text, and way over your head.

Drop back when the discussion gets to monster trucks, favorite Crayola, and best 24-Hour All Cartoon Network.
 
1.Central to the discussion, of course, is the issue of homosexuality.
Perhaps the discussion itself is redundant, as modern society appears to find such as simply peachy keen. I have friends who are of that persuasion, a few are homosexual, and a number of very conservative pals simply believe the issue is of no concern vis-à-vis government policy.

But, as the Bible is of fundamental importance to our Founders, and the in the memorializing documents of our founding, understanding the lessons in biblical teachings, it remains a pertinent discussion, if only in the abstract.



2. “In the New Testament (NT), there are at least three passages that refer to homosexual activity: Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:9–10. A fourth passage, Jude 1:7, is often interpreted as referring to homosexuality. Jesus discusses marriage only in a heterosexual context when he cites the Book of Genesis during a discussion of marriage (Matthew 19:4–6 and Mark 10:6–9).” Homosexuality in the New Testament - Wikipedia



To expand my understanding of the Old Testament, Dennis Prager’s “Genesis,” is highly easy to read, and his is explanations include translating the Hebrew, …and Genesis 18 and 19 are….eye opening.

3. The Jews are not present in the Bible until chapter 11 of Genesis, indicating that the Bible is about all people. Abraham is the first Jew, selected by God, and in Genesis 18:19, God says he picked Abraham, and hints that what He is about to do to Sodom is a lesson Abraham should teach his children.

“…for I have chosen him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice; so that the LORD may bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.’”

The question is why he is about to destroy the city of Sodom.

“The Torah revealed ethical monotheism, and this is the verse that summarizes what it means. For the first time, the Torah explicitly states God’s purpose for Abraham and his descendants: to do what is just and right and, implicitly, to teach it to the world.” Prager

Perhaps the concepts have changed in the modern world.

But….about the city of Sodom: Genesis 18.20 Then the Lord said, “The outrage of Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave!




4. First is God's 'investigation' of Sodom, to see if it deserved destruction.
When Reagan said this about the Soviet Union, “Trust…but verify!,” it was almost an echo of the next verse, where God says he will double-check Sodom, just in case the people have repented.

“One lesson taught here is the need to establish facts before passing judgment; even God does so. One should not condemn, let alone punish, on the basis of hearsay. A second lesson is that God judges all people—and does so according to one set of moral rules. This was an utterly new idea in human history. Unlike pagan gods, who acted according to irrational and amoral whims, God is morally predictable.”
Prager



A Roman Catholic scholar, Father Edward Flannery, drew the same conclusion: “It was Judaism that brought the concept of a God-given universal moral law into the world . . . and willingly or not . . . the Jew carries the burden of God in history and for this has never been forgiven.” ‘The Greatest Hatred in Human History’

Wow!

Jews punished by Western Civilization for not allowing folks to be being able to pretend not to know right from wrong.

A couple of corrections are needed here, thumpy. The Bibles were not of fundamental importance to our founders. Many of the founders were decidedly non xtian and non-religious. As we know (excluding you from “we know”, part), there was no mention of any bibles in the Constitution drafted by the founders.

You have a continuing pattern of behavior where you insist on re-writing the Constitution and attempting to force your extremist religious beliefs on the founders.

Go away. Scoot.

Talk about rewriting history...

The Bible wasn’t important to them?

By the way, Barack Obama was against gay marriage. Is he an extremist too?

Talk about understanding history....

Not all the founders were Christian. Many were Deists. Others were non-religious.

The Bibles were not a part of the Constitution.
 
Wow, nothing like refusing to live in the modern world...

So the Bible says homosexuality is a sin... an ancient book written by men... let's see... here are a few things the Bible says are okay, perhaps we should work them into modern society...

Death to those that commit adultery.

If an man and woman have sex during the time the woman is having a period they shall be punished by the community.

That if a man thinks his pregnant wife was unfaithful that he should bring her to the priest to be poisoned causing a miscarriage as a test to see if she really was unfaithful.

That it is appropriate to kill your rebellious children.

That not only is it OK to own slaves but that you can beat them to the point where as long as they don't die with 48 hours then you aren't guilty of anything.

That you can sell your daughters to others as a sex slave.

That a woman should be forced to marry a man that rapes her and the man has to pay her father money.

That it is OK for have sex with your daughters if "they got you drunk enough."

If a woman doesn't yell loud enough when being raped she should be put to death. But only if the woman is married, aka the property, of another man.



That's just a few of the glorious things...

Funny that the Bible condemns homosexuality between men, calling for their death, but make no mention of lesbians. Must be they're okay... I guess we know what kind of porn the men who wrote the book enjoyed...

All things being equal, I say we let the gays stay.


"Funny that the Bible condemns homosexuality between men, calling for their death,"


You should read the rest of my posts in this thread....you may be quite surprised about what is actually being condemned.
 
5. Now we find a lesson about justice, and about mercy in the chapter.


Abraham has a feeling about what is about to happen to Sodom due to their sins….and he asks: “Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?”

Now, Abraham pins God down about punishing any innocent folks:

18.24 What if there should be fifty innocent within the city; will You then wipe out the place and not forgive it for the sake of the innocent fifty who are in it?

18.26 And the Lord answered, “If I find within the city of Sodom fifty innocent ones, I will forgive the whole place for their sake.”

18.28 What if the fifty innocent should lack five? Will You destroy the whole city for want of the five?”

18.28 (cont.) And He answered, “I will not destroy if I find forty-five there.”
18.29 But he spoke to Him again, and said, “What if forty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not do it, for the sake of the forty.”



Abraham kept lowering the number of innocent people. And God kept agreeing.


18.30 And he said, “Let not my Lord be angry if I go on: What if thirty should be

found there?” And He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

18.31 And he said, “I venture again to speak to my Lord: What if twenty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not destroy, for the sake of the twenty.”

18.32 And he said, “Let not my Lord be angry if I speak out this last time: What if ten should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not destroy, for the sake of the ten.”


Wow!
Now I see what they say about Jewish lawyers!



“Abraham, in arguing for the entire city to be saved because of the merit of a few, stopped at ten because there has to be some minimum number of good people—” Prager
 
the LORD shall SMITE thy SINNERS!!!!!!
look what happened to Las Vegas
the LORD loves to punish humans!!!!!!!!!!
 
& i would be careful about using genesis' story about sodom & gomorrah as an argument against homosexuality....


Read more carefully.....there is no argument here against homosexuality.

It is simply an investigation of the text, and way over your head.

Drop back when the discussion gets to monster trucks, favorite Crayola, and best 24-Hour All Cartoon Network.

lol.... i'm not part of the cult 45, so none of those things interest me.
 
Have you not read EZE 16, get back to me when you do.

Also:
“One lesson taught here is the need to establish facts before passing judgment; even God does so. One should not condemn, let alone punish, on the basis of hearsay. A second lesson is that God judges all people—and does so according to one set of moral rules. This was an utterly new idea in human history. Unlike pagan gods, who acted according to irrational and amoral whims, God is morally predictable.”
Prager

Who are the pagan gods, and who do you mean by God?? Also what is the one set of moral rules?
 
the LORD shall SMITE thy SINNERS!!!!!!
look what happened to Las Vegas
the LORD loves to punish humans!!!!!!!!!!


Yet, here you are.
I am not a sinner because there is no such thing as sin---man MADE that up



This is what you said: "the LORD loves to punish humans!!!!!!!!!"

Succinctly, I proved you in error.


Now....as far as mankind deciding what was wrong to do....


Mankind agreed on what is ...sinful.....before 1313 BCE. That’s when He offered the contract, the Ten Commandments, acceptance of which sent mankind off to the races, producing the greatest culture ever known: Western Civilization.

Before Sinai and the Ten Commandments, there were the rules called the Noahide Laws, based on reason and a desire to be able to live with other people, laws against bad behavior, the idea that these injured society: bans on murder, theft, idolatry, sexual immorality, animal cruelty, cursing God, and the need to set up courts to punish the infractions. They are incumbent on everyone, whether one respects the Bible or not, because they are so obvious.
The benefit of the Bible is that it tells society how to be good.

Noahide Laws, also called Noachian Laws, a Jewish Talmudic designation for seven biblical laws given to Adam and to Noah before the revelation to Moses on Mt. Sinai and consequently binding on all mankind.” Noahide Laws | Judaism


“According to Jewish tradition, non-Jews who adhere to these laws …are said to be followers of Noahidism and regarded as righteous gentiles, who are assured of a place in the world to come, the final reward of the righteous.” Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia


So....no disagreement there.



The disagreement is whether the laws could be enforced in any society that lacks belief in God.


 
the LORD shall SMITE thy SINNERS!!!!!!
look what happened to Las Vegas
the LORD loves to punish humans!!!!!!!!!!


Yet, here you are.
I am not a sinner because there is no such thing as sin---man MADE that up



This is what you said: "the LORD loves to punish humans!!!!!!!!!"

Succinctly, I proved you in error.


Now....as far as mankind deciding what was wrong to do....


Mankind agreed on what is ...sinful.....before 1313 BCE. That’s when He offered the contract, the Ten Commandments, acceptance of which sent mankind off to the races, producing the greatest culture ever known: Western Civilization.

Before Sinai and the Ten Commandments, there were the rules called the Noahide Laws, based on reason and a desire to be able to live with other people, laws against bad behavior, the idea that these injured society: bans on murder, theft, idolatry, sexual immorality, animal cruelty, cursing God, and the need to set up courts to punish the infractions. They are incumbent on everyone, whether one respects the Bible or not, because they are so obvious.
The benefit of the Bible is that it tells society how to be good.

Noahide Laws, also called Noachian Laws, a Jewish Talmudic designation for seven biblical laws given to Adam and to Noah before the revelation to Moses on Mt. Sinai and consequently binding on all mankind.” Noahide Laws | Judaism


“According to Jewish tradition, non-Jews who adhere to these laws …are said to be followers of Noahidism and regarded as righteous gentiles, who are assured of a place in the world to come, the final reward of the righteous.” Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia


So....no disagreement there.



The disagreement is whether the laws could be enforced in any society that lacks belief in God.

you proved my error-----hahahahhahahahahahahahahah
so god does NOT punish humans?
 
5. Now we find a lesson about justice, and about mercy in the chapter.


Abraham has a feeling about what is about to happen to Sodom due to their sins….and he asks: “Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?”

Now, Abraham pins God down about punishing any innocent folks:

18.24 What if there should be fifty innocent within the city; will You then wipe out the place and not forgive it for the sake of the innocent fifty who are in it?

18.26 And the Lord answered, “If I find within the city of Sodom fifty innocent ones, I will forgive the whole place for their sake.”

18.28 What if the fifty innocent should lack five? Will You destroy the whole city for want of the five?”

18.28 (cont.) And He answered, “I will not destroy if I find forty-five there.”
18.29 But he spoke to Him again, and said, “What if forty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not do it, for the sake of the forty.”



Abraham kept lowering the number of innocent people. And God kept agreeing.


18.30 And he said, “Let not my Lord be angry if I go on: What if thirty should be

found there?” And He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

18.31 And he said, “I venture again to speak to my Lord: What if twenty should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not destroy, for the sake of the twenty.”

18.32 And he said, “Let not my Lord be angry if I speak out this last time: What if ten should be found there?” And He answered, “I will not destroy, for the sake of the ten.”


Wow!
Now I see what they say about Jewish lawyers!



“Abraham, in arguing for the entire city to be saved because of the merit of a few, stopped at ten because there has to be some minimum number of good people—” Prager


Oh, gawd. It’s Sunday morning bible thumping. If she asks for money, use some discretion.

If she hands you snakes, head-for-zee-hills.
 

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