keys to the kingdom

[hobelim]

Rome tried to destroy the early church and failed miserably, yet here you are, pretending Rome created the church. As usual, you ignore reality to craft your narrative.

Do you worship a trinity that became a reality defying supernatural mangod or not? Thats not what the first followers of Jesus believed. THEY WERE DEDICATED JEWISH MEN AND WOMEN. Even Jesus in his own words according to the plain meaning of John 20:17 said;

"tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and their Father; My God and their God."

By saying "my God is their God" Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he either thought of himself as or claimed to be God. THATS THE WAY THE COOKIE CRUMBLES.

Ignore that.

 

[hobelim]

Rome tried to destroy the early church and failed miserably,

And then they usurped and perverted Christianity with Mithraism, the secret Babylonian MYSTERY RELIGION of the Roman government and military creating the Antichrist, a false substitute counterfeit ascetic Jesus, with all the attending signs and powerful 'miracles of the lie" that scripture is to be taken literally that you blindly worship from your fetid tomb teeming with maggots and creepy things that creep, rife with corruption, filled with dead mens bones.

 

[hobelim]

And you don't believe you are sanctimonious.

I never said that. I'm paying you back in your own coin just like a sanctimonious prick, only what I said about idolatry, a sin under penalty of death, what you do in church, is OBJECTIVELY an absolute unchangeable fact. My revelation is based on truth not sophistry.

So, if scripture is true, you died in a very real way a long time ago. But don't believe me just because I said so, even though its true, believe because of the stupid things you say and do,

 

[hobelim]

I mean the way you sanctimoniously display your sophistry

There is nothing deceptive, fallacious, or specious about anything I said. You practice idolatry hoping to escape the penalty for practicing idolatry. What you do in church seeking spiritual life from a lifeless piece of bread made by human hands is degrading and objectively stupid.

But don't get me wrong.

Its a beautiful delusion. A trinity became a diaper wearing baby boy only to be crucified so believers can sin with impunity for life because he loved the Roman empire so much.

Sucker.

 

[hadit]

Do you worship a trinity that became a reality defying supernatural mangod or not?Thats not what the first followers of Jesus believed. Even Jesus himself in his own words according to the plain meaning of the verse in John 20:17,

"tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and their Father; My God and their God."

By saying "my God is their God" Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he either thought of himself as or claimed to be God. THATS THE WAY THE COOKIE CRUMBLES.

Ignore that.

No need to ignore anything. In fact, it bears investigation, so I did. It didn't take a big search. Heck, you could have done it yourself. Of course, you would have to peel away all the post-it notes you stuck all over the pages of your Bible, reminding you that nothing means what it says.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[hadit]

And then they usurped and perverted Christianity with Mithraism, the secret Babylonian MYSTERY RELIGION of the Roman government and military creating the Antichrist, a false substitute counterfeit ascetic Jesus, with all the attending signs and powerful 'miracles of the lie" that scripture is to be taken literally that you blindly worship from your fetid tomb teeming with maggots and creepy things that creep, rife with corruption, filled with dead mens bones.

Again, you fail to deal with African and Asian churches outside the influence of Rome who had no problem believing as the original disciples did. You can't seem to open your eyes far enough to see them.

 

[hobelim]

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Thats just shows that the rabid anti christian persecutor Paul deliberately made false claims to insure the Jewish people would dismiss Jesus out of hand knowing that anyone who claims equality with God is insane and curse the gentile world with his maudlin bullshit story about a mangod. Paul was working with Rome when he said, "Submit to the governing authorities OR ELSE," a few years before Nero began the first of may Christian persecutions.

In Judaism, God has no equal. Thats a fact. That is what Jesus and his disciples believed.

So just take your pagan roman crap, ram it up your snout, and be proud to be an idolator.

Trying to convince educated adults that its not idolatry to worship a trinity thats became a supernatural mangod just makes you look like a pathetic low life liar and inept con artist.

 

[hadit]

Thats just shows that the rabid anti christian persecutor Paul deliberately made false claims to insure the Jewish people would dismiss Jesus out of hand knowing that anyone who claims equality with God is insane and curse the gentile world with his maudlin bullshit story about a mangod. Obviously he was working with Rome when he said, "Submit to the governing authorities OR ELSE," just a few years before Nero began the first of may Christian persecutions.

And there you have it, when Scripture destroys your narrative, you ignore Scripture, not change your narrative to fit. Oh, and it was most likely Nero who had Paul executed. It was Rome that had him under house arrest, chained to guards, during the time he wrote a good part of the NT. Not really working with Rome there, was he? That's what happens when you start with what you want to believe then try to make Scripture fit instead of the other way around, you tie yourself up in knots, holding desperately to things that violate common sense.

In Judaism, God has no equal. Thats a fact. That is what Jesus and his disciples believed.

Exactly, and since Jesus is in fact God, there is no equal to Him either. That's what Jesus claimed and that's what His disciples believed. Also is why the Jewish religious leaders tried to stone Him, they were offended by His claim to be God.

 

[hobelim]

during the time he wrote a good part of the NT. Not really working with Rome there, was he?

Right.

Romans well known for their compassion gave out sundries books to read, pen and paper to write friends, a mattress, blanket and pillow and clean clothes to people in their dungeons.

 

[ding]

I never said that. I'm paying you back in your own coin just like a sanctimonious prick,

So your argument is that you are being sanctimonious because I am being sanctimonious? We both know that is BS. How about you link to the posts where I have been sanctimonious and I'll link to the posts where you have been sanctimonious? Then we can compare them. Does that sound fair?

only what I said about idolatry, a sin under penalty of death, what you do in church, is OBJECTIVELY an absolute unchangeable fact. My revelation is based on truth not sophistry.

So, if scripture is true, you died in a very real way a long time ago. But don't believe me just because I said so, even though its true, believe because of the stupid things you say and do,

This is textbook sanctimony. You can't help yourself.

Sanctimony is often characterized by a discrepancy between outward expressions of piety and actual behavior, where individuals use religious rhetoric as a tool to display moral superiority and judge others, rather than demonstrating humility, empathy, or genuine spiritual growth.

 

[hobelim]

Exactly, and since Jesus is in fact God, there is no equal to Him either.

Thats makes absolutely no rational sense. Jesus said his God is the disciples God. Thats not claiming equality with God. Thats the exact opposite. Jesus did not claim equality with God.

There never was and never will be a human being that was God or became God either before during or after their human existence. But don't let the truth get in the way of your delusions.

 

[ding]

There is nothing deceptive, fallacious, or specious about anything I said. You practice idolatry hoping to escape the penalty for practicing idolatry. What you do in church seeking spiritual life from a lifeless piece of bread made by human hands is degrading and objectively stupid.

But don't get me wrong.

Its a beautiful delusion. A trinity became a diaper wearing baby boy only to be crucified so believers can sin with impunity for life because he loved the Roman empire so much.

Sucker.

^^^^ sanctimony.

Sanctimony is often characterized by a discrepancy between outward expressions of piety and actual behavior, where individuals use religious rhetoric as a tool to display moral superiority and judge others, rather than demonstrating humility, empathy, or genuine spiritual growth.

 

[ding]

Jesus did not claim equality with God.

Maybe try googling it.

While Jesus rarely used those exact words, the Gospels record him making highly provocative claims and performing actions that his listeners explicitly understood as claims of equality with God. [1]
Where Jesus Claimed Equality

• John 10:30: Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one." According to the passage, the religious leaders immediately tried to stone him for blasphemy because, by saying this, he was making Himself equal to God. [1, 2]
• John 8:58: Jesus applied the divine title "I am" (the name God revealed to Moses at the burning bush) to himself, which led to another attempt to stone him for claiming deity. [1, 2]
• John 5:17-18: After Jesus defended healing on the Sabbath by saying, "My Father is working until now, and I am working," the Gospel explicitly notes the Jewish leaders wanted to kill him because he was "calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God".

 

[ding]

There never was and never will be a person that was God or became God either before during or after their human existence.

The gospels say otherwise.

 

[hobelim]

Where Jesus Claimed Equality

• John 10:30: Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one." According to the passage, the religious leaders immediately tried to stone him for blasphemy because, by saying this, he was making Himself equal to God. [1, 2]
• John 8:58: Jesus applied the divine title "I am" (the name God revealed to Moses at the burning bush) to himself, which led to another attempt to stone him for claiming deity. [1, 2]
• John 5:17-18: After Jesus defended healing on the Sabbath by saying, "My Father is working until now, and I am working," the Gospel explicitly notes the Jewish leaders wanted to kill him because he was "calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God".

Not one of those quotes is Jesus claiming equality with God. The Father and I are one means they are of one accord. If you have seen me you have seen the Father, means if you understand Jesus you'll understand God. Before Abraham was born I am was God speaking though Jesus answering how Jesus could have "seen" Abraham. Being the Son of God by definition is not claiming equality with God. They was just scurrilous false accusations designed to discredit Jesus as insane because anyone who claims to be God is quite insane.

Am I telling you something that you didn't already know?

"Before Abraham was born I am."......"God tells me what to say and how to say it."

Jesus Fckng Christ!

 

[ding]

Not one of those instances is Jesus claiming equality with God. The Father and I are one means they are of one accord, Before Abraham was born I am was God speaking though Jesus answering the question of how Jesus could have seen Abraham. Being the Son of God by definition is not claiming equality with God. They was just scurrilous false accusations designed to discredit Jesus as insane because anyone who claims to be God is quite insane.

Am I telling you something that you didn't already know?

"Before Abraham was born I am."......"God tells me what to say and how to say it."

Jesus Fckng Christ!

Not only did Jesus claim to be equal to God, Jesus acted as if he were equal to God.

According to the biblical accounts, Jesus frequently behaved and spoke in ways that led both his followers and his opponents to recognize that he was claiming equality with God. These actions and statements are central to Christian theology. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
Jesus' claims of equality with God were demonstrated in several ways:

• Claiming Divine Authority: Jesus regularly spoke and acted with an authority that belonged only to God. For instance, in the Sermon on the Mount, He contrasted His own teachings with the established law by saying, "You have heard that it was said... but I say to you...". [1]
• Forgiving Sins: Jesus claimed the divine prerogative to forgive people's sins. This outraged the religious leaders of his time because they correctly understood that only God can forgive sins against God. [1, 2]
• Working on the Sabbath: When criticized for healing on the Sabbath, Jesus defended Himself by stating, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working," which his accusers understood as making Himself equal to God. [1, 2, 3]
• Accepting Worship: The Jewish scriptures strictly forbid the worship of anyone or anything other than God. Yet, Jesus repeatedly accepted worship from His followers without reprimanding them. [1]
• Using Divine Titles: Jesus applied divine names to Himself, such as the phrase "I AM" (referencing God's revelation to Moses), and frequently referred to God as "My Father" in a deeply unique and personal way. [1]

While Jesus lived a life of submission and obedience to the Father's will, historically and scripturally, His words and deeds clearly positioned Him as equal to God in nature and authority. [1, 2]

 

[ding]

Before Abraham was born I am was God speaking though Jesus answering how Jesus could have "seen" Abraham.

Matthew 17 The Transfiguration of Jesus.*
1a After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.*
2* b And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.
3* And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.
4Then Peter said to Jesus in reply, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents* here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5c While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud cast a shadow over them,* then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
6* When the disciples heard this, they fell prostrate and were very much afraid.
7But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and do not be afraid.”
8And when the disciples raised their eyes, they saw no one else but Jesus alone.

 

[hobelim]

While Jesus lived a life of submission and obedience to the Father's will, historically and scripturally, His words and deeds clearly positioned Him as equal to God in nature and authority.

Jesus said he spoke for God who told him what to say and how to say it which does not make Jesus God anymore than Moses or the prophets who spoke for God made them God.

 

[ding]

Jesus said he spoke for God who told him what to say and how to say it which doesn't make Jesus God anymore than Moses or the prophets who spoke for God made them God.

Jesus never rebuked anyone for treating him as if he were equal to God. In fact, rather than denying or correcting such perceptions, he frequently accepted worship and made distinct claims about his divine nature and unity with the Father. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Key biblical instances where Jesus accepted divine reverence without correction include:

• Accepting Worship: Throughout the Gospels, Jesus unhesitatingly accepted worship from his followers. When the disciples saw him walk on water, they worshiped him as the Son of God. Following his resurrection, women held his feet and worshiped him, and the Apostle Thomas famously addressed him directly as "My Lord and my God!"—a declaration Jesus did not correct. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
• The "I AM" Statements: In the Gospel of John, Jesus uses the phrase "I AM" (e.g., John 8:58), a direct reference to God's name revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14. [1, 2, 3]
• Claiming Co-equality: In John 5:18, Jewish leaders sought to kill Jesus because he called God his own Father, "making himself equal with God". Jesus did not rebuke them or deny this claim; instead, he confirmed it by stating the Son does what the Father does and should be honored in the exact same manner.

 

[ding]

In the Bible, the disciples - specifically Peter, James, and John - fell into a deep heavy sleep during the so called transfiguration.

What they they saw and heard, they saw and heard in a dream. People do not dematerialize and start glowing like the sun and a voice from the sky does not speak to anyone awake.

Am I telling you something you didn't already know?

The earliest Christians began worshipping Jesus as God almost immediately following his resurrection in the early 30s AD. This practice of "high Christology" was not a later invention by the Emperor Constantine; it originated within the first few years of the church among Jewish believers in Jerusalem. [1, 2, 3, 4]

The timeline of this theological development unfolded in three primary stages:

1. The 30s AD: Post-Resurrection Devotion
Within Jewish monotheism, worshipping a human being was strictly forbidden. Yet, historians and scholars (such as Larry Hurtado) note that the earliest followers of Jesus almost immediately broke this boundary. [1]

• They began applying the Greek title Kyrios ("Lord") to Jesus, a title previously reserved for God in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. [1, 2]
• Early prayers, such as Maranatha ("Our Lord, come!") [1 Corinthians 16:22], were directed at Jesus. [1, 2, 3]
• In the Gospels, written down decades later but reflecting the earliest church's memories and liturgical practices, Jesus consistently receives worship without rebuking the worshippers (unlike angels in scripture who refuse it). [1, 2]

2. The 50s AD: The Apostle Paul's Writings
By the mid-first century, before the Gospels were even composed, early Christian hymns and letters explicitly recognized Jesus as divine. [1]

• In Philippians 2:5-11, Paul quotes a pre-existing Christian hymn that states Jesus existed in the "form of God" and that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow."
• In Colossians 1:15, Paul describes Jesus as the "image of the invisible God," elevating him to a divine status. [1, 2, 3]

3. The Late 1st Century: The Gospels and Beyond
Between 70 and 100 AD, the New Testament texts solidified and recorded these already-established beliefs about Jesus.

• In John 20:28, the disciple Thomas famously falls to his knees and declares to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!".
• In John 1:1, the author explicitly writes that "the Word was God" and identifies that Word as Jesus. [1, 2]

Clarification on Church Councils
While the worship of Jesus as God began in the 1st century, the exact theological definition of how Jesus was God and his relationship to the Father and the Holy Spirit was debated for centuries. The Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD to formalize this belief into a standardized creed, not to invent it. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]