Jesus is God

[jillian]

Many people, including some Christians, refuse to believe that Jesus is equal with God. The Bible is clear about this. Jesus Himself said that "I and my Father are one." There is much controversy over what this means. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

Show me one source in Tanach that might lead an educated Jew to accept that God and any possible physical manifestation of a human are one and the same.
Restrict yourself to the Tanach, because when Jesus was preaching, there was no NT.

Apparently the Jews did not kill Jesus for making himself the Son of God, apparently it was because he resembled the prophets of the past that they killed whom God sent them.

the romans killed Jesus because he wanted Rome out of Jerusalem.

or do you not know that the romans crucified him as was their common means of execution. the letters placed on his cross were the same they placed on the crosses of everyone who tried to call themselves messiah.

Really, so Jews think Jesus was really a prophet of God?

Maybe that is why they killed him. They killed off most others.

why would we think that? and where would you get that from what I wrote?

jews didn't kill him. that's something anti-semites like saying because it somehow warms the cockles of their hearts.

you might try to actually read what I wrote before you start whining though.

 

[Indeependent]

Many people, including some Christians, refuse to believe that Jesus is equal with God. The Bible is clear about this. Jesus Himself said that "I and my Father are one." There is much controversy over what this means. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

Show me one source in Tanach that might lead an educated Jew to accept that God and any possible physical manifestation of a human are one and the same.
Restrict yourself to the Tanach, because when Jesus was preaching, there was no NT.

Apparently the Jews did not kill Jesus for making himself the Son of God, apparently it was because he resembled the prophets of the past that they killed whom God sent them.

the romans killed Jesus because he wanted Rome out of Jerusalem.

or do you not know that the romans crucified him as was their common means of execution. the letters placed on his cross were the same they placed on the crosses of everyone who tried to call themselves messiah.

Really, so Jews think Jesus was really a prophet of God?

Maybe that is why they killed him. They killed off most others.

Are you referring to Kings?
Elijah solved that problem by having the prophets of Baal executed.

 

[Indeependent]

Rabbi Akiva Tatz...a genius.

 

[irosie91]

Many people, including some Christians, refuse to believe that Jesus is equal with God. The Bible is clear about this. Jesus Himself said that "I and my Father are one." There is much controversy over what this means. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

Show me one source in Tanach that might lead an educated Jew to accept that God and any possible physical manifestation of a human are one and the same.
Restrict yourself to the Tanach, because when Jesus was preaching, there was no NT.

Apparently the Jews did not kill Jesus for making himself the Son of God, apparently it was because he resembled the prophets of the past that they killed whom God sent them.

What on Earth are you talking about?

there is a sunday school and a mosque teaching that
"THE JEWS KILLED ALL THEIR PROPHETS"----but if
you ask the little parrots who repeat that song
WHAT PROPHETS------the kids have no idea. Jezebel---
did kill what are described as prophets She was the
gentile wife of King Ahab----they were both offed shortly thereafter. The idea got conflated into "JOOOOS KILLED DA PROPHETS" by the sunday school and mosque
geniuses ------now used as a jump rope ditty

 

[RWNJ]

Many people, including some Christians, refuse to believe that Jesus is equal with God. The Bible is clear about this. Jesus Himself said that "I and my Father are one." There is much controversy over what this means. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

Jesus did not speak Greek and John is not a reliable source.
He seems to have written his stuff long after jesus died----ie NEVAH MET HIM but is reporting like an eyewitness. His stuff is MYSTICAL interpretation-----why talk about it like its a CONCRETE reality? Jews certainly had a hard time KILLING people that they wanted to kill. Seems like they "wanted" to kill Jesus for at least 100 years.

Excellent point about killing heretics.
We couldn't kill Mark, Matthew, John, Paul, Luke, etc... when we really had no power and yet everybody claims we killed Jesus.

so true----the party line is that jews were dying to murder Jesus from the time he entered Jerusalem but COULD NOT
PULL IT OFF--------yet jews ALSO killed "all the prophets". ????????? For the record-----jews were also dying to murder muhummad. Jews are SOOO INEPT

False Christians say Jews and Christians have the same God. But, Jesus is God, and Jesus isn't the God of the Jews. The god of the Jews is the devil. Those who claim Jesus was a Jew, their god is also the devil.

There is ONE GOD. He is the God of all creation. The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Everyone has the same God. The only difference is whether one comes to Him through Christ Jesus.

 

[Indeependent]

Many people, including some Christians, refuse to believe that Jesus is equal with God. The Bible is clear about this. Jesus Himself said that "I and my Father are one." There is much controversy over what this means. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

Jesus did not speak Greek and John is not a reliable source.
He seems to have written his stuff long after jesus died----ie NEVAH MET HIM but is reporting like an eyewitness. His stuff is MYSTICAL interpretation-----why talk about it like its a CONCRETE reality? Jews certainly had a hard time KILLING people that they wanted to kill. Seems like they "wanted" to kill Jesus for at least 100 years.

Excellent point about killing heretics.
We couldn't kill Mark, Matthew, John, Paul, Luke, etc... when we really had no power and yet everybody claims we killed Jesus.

so true----the party line is that jews were dying to murder Jesus from the time he entered Jerusalem but COULD NOT
PULL IT OFF--------yet jews ALSO killed "all the prophets". ????????? For the record-----jews were also dying to murder muhummad. Jews are SOOO INEPT

False Christians say Jews and Christians have the same God. But, Jesus is God, and Jesus isn't the God of the Jews. The god of the Jews is the devil. Those who claim Jesus was a Jew, their god is also the devil.

There is ONE GOD. He is the God of all creation. The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Everyone has the same God. The only difference is whether one comes to Him through Christ Jesus.

"The only difference is whether one comes to Him through Christ Jesus."
You cannot prove Jesus through the NT.
By what other means do you prove Jesus?

 

[RWNJ]

Let's get back on topic, please. Is Jesus God? Here's a question for you. Jesus died for our sins. If He isn't God, then that means that a created being died for your sins. Do you realize how absurd that is?

 

[TNHarley]

Let's get back on topic, please. Is Jesus God? Here's a question for you. Jesus died for our sins. If He isn't God, then that means that a created being died for your sins. Do you realize how absurd that is?

Why did God rape his mother?

 

[Indeependent]

Let's get back on topic, please. Is Jesus God? Here's a question for you. Jesus died for our sins. If He isn't God, then that means that a created being died for your sins. Do you realize how absurd that is?

We are on topic.
The concept of dying for someone else's sin is the NT mutilating Tanach sources.
The onus is on you.

 

[irosie91]

Let's get back on topic, please. Is Jesus God? Here's a question for you. Jesus died for our sins. If He isn't God, then that means that a created being died for your sins. Do you realize how absurd that is?

We are on topic.
The concept of dying for someone else's sin is the NT mutilating Tanach sources.
The onus is on you.

it is likened to the sacrifice of a lambchop

 

[irosie91]

Let's get back on topic, please. Is Jesus God? Here's a question for you. Jesus died for our sins. If He isn't God, then that means that a created being died for your sins. Do you realize how absurd that is?

no

 

[shimon]

Many people, including some Christians, refuse to believe that Jesus is equal with God. The Bible is clear about this. Jesus Himself said that "I and my Father are one." There is much controversy over what this means. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

Jesus did not speak Greek and John is not a reliable source.
He seems to have written his stuff long after jesus died----ie NEVAH MET HIM but is reporting like an eyewitness. His stuff is MYSTICAL interpretation-----why talk about it like its a CONCRETE reality? Jews certainly had a hard time KILLING people that they wanted to kill. Seems like they "wanted" to kill Jesus for at least 100 years.

Excellent point about killing heretics.
We couldn't kill Mark, Matthew, John, Paul, Luke, etc... when we really had no power and yet everybody claims we killed Jesus.

so true----the party line is that jews were dying to murder Jesus from the time he entered Jerusalem but COULD NOT
PULL IT OFF--------yet jews ALSO killed "all the prophets". ????????? For the record-----jews were also dying to murder muhummad. Jews are SOOO INEPT

False Christians say Jews and Christians have the same God. But, Jesus is God, and Jesus isn't the God of the Jews. The god of the Jews is the devil. Those who claim Jesus was a Jew, their god is also the devil.

There is ONE GOD. He is the God of all creation. The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Everyone has the same God. The only difference is whether one comes to Him through Christ Jesus.

Putting aside the fact that Jesus never exsisted at least the one written about in the New Testament one must ask how Jesus became the “ Christ” after all according to Jewish law one must be annointed with the holy anointing oil or Shemen afarshimon it must be poured over the head and drip down to his feet..Many were annointed this way....It is my understanding that instead of this proper method Jesus had his ahem feet washed by a wicked women showing the opposite(once again whoever wrote the New Testament was making a joke of the proper process...) I could point out many other interesting tidbits for your perusal if you like...It seems like everything is backward after all no one needs to go through anyone to have a relationship with Gd unless someone wants a piece of the action for doing so ( which Interestingly is the Roman way) Capeche..

 

[shimon]

Let's get back on topic, please. Is Jesus God? Here's a question for you. Jesus died for our sins. If He isn't God, then that means that a created being died for your sins. Do you realize how absurd that is?

No vicarious atonement as per Ezekiel 18: 20-22...Neither the father takes the sins of the son nor the son the sins of the father all stand on their own accord....Oops where does that leave the created image of Jesus...

 

[The Professor]

Many people, including some Christians, refuse to believe that Jesus is equal with God. The Bible is clear about this. Jesus Himself said that "I and my Father are one." There is much controversy over what this means. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

There are verses in the Bible which some Christians interpret as establishing that Jesus is God. Since those verses have already been referenced in this thread, I will not repeat them. However, there are other versus which lead other Christians to assert that Jesus is not God. Here are some of those verses:

Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19

"And he said unto them, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, the Father” (Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19).

(Christ acknowledges that He is not good. Now, logically speaking, if Christ is not good, how can He be God or even a part of God?? How can a perfect God have even a single component which is not good?)

Matthew 20:23:

“He said to them, You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for who it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23).

Matthew 27:46:

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46).


(One does not forsake, that is leave or abandon, himself; therefore that which forsakes and that which is forsaken must obviously be two different entities.

Mark 13:32:

“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.”

Mark 16

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

(Clearly Jesus cannot sit on the right hand of himself, therefore Jesus and God must be two distinct entities).

Luke 22:42: “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

(This verse shows that The Father and Son did not share the same objectives. The Son would just as soon have avoided His "death" but He acquiesced to the will of His Father.)

John 8:42:

“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”

(This verse ridicules the idea that God and Jesus are one. Jesus said He did not come of Himself but was sent by the Father. It is axiomatic that the one who sent and the one who was sent cannot be the same person. If Jesus and the Father really were one and the same, Jesus would have come of himself, and the words He said in John 8:42 could not be true.

John 14:28:

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”

(This is one of the strongest proofs that Father and Son are two separate entities and the Father is superior to the Son.)

John 20:17:

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

(As a friend of mine once said, If Jesus is His own God, then I'm my own grandpa.)


1 Timothey 2:5-6:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(If Christ is a mediator between God and men, then logically He cannot be God.)

The above verses prove beyond the possibility of rational debate that Jesus and God are not the same. Only the most intellectually dishonest perversion of logic and language could reconcile such verses with the concept that Jesus and God are the same entity. Besides, if it needs explaining, it cannot possibly be the word of God.

However, although the cited verses clearly show that Jesus is merely the Son of God (the Father being greater than the Son), I acknowledge that there are also Bible verses which show Jesus is God Himself. Additionally, there are still other Bible verses which say that Jesus is a co-equal part of a divine trinity composed of three separate entities, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Here is the question: Are Jesus and God one and the same?


Here is the answer: It depends on which Bible verses you believe according to your individual interpretation.


However, there is one thing I will never understand. The Bible is replete with acknowledgments that God is eternal. If God could not die and Christ is God, the “sacrifice” on the cross is meaningless. If Christ is God, there was no death on the cross, no sacrifice. Eternal gods don't die. Only mortals die. Further, logic tells us that one cannot be all God and all man as some suggest.

There are more such verses of course, but I've shown enough to establish that those who believe that the Father and Son are two different entities and One is greater than the Other have a Biblical basis for their belief.

 

[RWNJ]

Let's get back on topic, please. Is Jesus God? Here's a question for you. Jesus died for our sins. If He isn't God, then that means that a created being died for your sins. Do you realize how absurd that is?

Why did God rape his mother?

Why are you such an idiot?

 

[RWNJ]

Many people, including some Christians, refuse to believe that Jesus is equal with God. The Bible is clear about this. Jesus Himself said that "I and my Father are one." There is much controversy over what this means. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

There are verses in the Bible which some Christians interpret as establishing that Jesus is God. Since those verses have already been referenced in this thread, I will not repeat them. However, there are other versus which lead other Christians to assert that Jesus is not God. Here are some of those verses:

Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19

"And he said unto them, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, the Father” (Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19).

(Christ acknowledges that He is not good. Now, logically speaking, if Christ is not good, how can He be God or even a part of God?? How can a perfect God have even a single component which is not good?)

Matthew 20:23:

“He said to them, You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for who it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23).

Matthew 27:46:

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46).


(One does not forsake, that is leave or abandon, himself; therefore that which forsakes and that which is forsaken must obviously be two different entities.

Mark 13:32:

“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.”

Mark 16

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

(Clearly Jesus cannot sit on the right hand of himself, therefore Jesus and God must be two distinct entities).

Luke 22:42: “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

(This verse shows that The Father and Son did not share the same objectives. The Son would just as soon have avoided His "death" but He acquiesced to the will of His Father.)

John 8:42:

“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”

(This verse ridicules the idea that God and Jesus are one. Jesus said He did not come of Himself but was sent by the Father. It is axiomatic that the one who sent and the one who was sent cannot be the same person. If Jesus and the Father really were one and the same, Jesus would have come of himself, and the words He said in John 8:42 could not be true.

John 14:28:

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”

(This is one of the strongest proofs that Father and Son are two separate entities and the Father is superior to the Son.)

John 20:17:

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

(As a friend of mine once said, If Jesus is His own God, then I'm my own grandpa.)


1 Timothey 2:5-6:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(If Christ is a mediator between God and men, then logically He cannot be God.)

The above verses prove beyond the possibility of rational debate that Jesus and God are not the same. Only the most intellectually dishonest perversion of logic and language could reconcile such verses with the concept that Jesus and God are the same entity. Besides, if it needs explaining, it cannot possibly be the word of God.

However, although the cited verses clearly show that Jesus is merely the Son of God (the Father being greater than the Son), I acknowledge that there are also Bible verses which show Jesus is God Himself. Additionally, there are still other Bible verses which say that Jesus is a co-equal part of a divine trinity composed of three separate entities, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Here is the question: Are Jesus and God one and the same?


Here is the answer: It depends on which Bible verses you believe according to your individual interpretation.


However, there is one thing I will never understand. The Bible is replete with acknowledgments that God is eternal. If God could not die and Christ is God, the “sacrifice” on the cross is meaningless. If Christ is God, there was no death on the cross, no sacrifice. Eternal gods don't die. Only mortals die. Further, logic tells us that one cannot be all God and all man as some suggest.

There are more such verses of course, but I've shown enough to establish that those who believe that the Father and Son are two different entities and One is greater than the Other have a Biblical basis for their belief.

Your ignorance is appalling.

 

[onefour1]

Jesus is the firstborn of all the spirit children of God. He is Alpha. It was through him that the Father created the heavens and the earth. He is the second member of the Godhead. The Father chose Jesus to be the Savior of the world before the foundations of the earth. The Father and Son are separate and distinct personages but are one in purpose and now glory. Jesus is the heir of all things of the Father.

Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Revelation 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Colossians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Romans 8:17
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Revelation 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

 

[Indeependent]

Jesus is the firstborn of all the spirit children of God. He is Alpha. It was through him that the Father created the heavens and the earth. He is the second member of the Godhead. The Father chose Jesus to be the Savior of the world before the foundations of the earth. The Father and Son are separate and distinct personages but are one in purpose and now glory. Jesus is the heir of all things of the Father.

Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Revelation 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Colossians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Romans 8:17
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now you can quote all the misquotes from Tanach.
We'll wait.

 

[The Professor]

Many people, including some Christians, refuse to believe that Jesus is equal with God. The Bible is clear about this. Jesus Himself said that "I and my Father are one." There is much controversy over what this means. Perhaps this will help clear things up.

I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

There are verses in the Bible which some Christians interpret as establishing that Jesus is God. Since those verses have already been referenced in this thread, I will not repeat them. However, there are other versus which lead other Christians to assert that Jesus is not God. Here are some of those verses:

Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19

"And he said unto them, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, the Father” (Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19).

(Christ acknowledges that He is not good. Now, logically speaking, if Christ is not good, how can He be God or even a part of God?? How can a perfect God have even a single component which is not good?)

Matthew 20:23:

“He said to them, You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for who it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23).

Matthew 27:46:

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46).


(One does not forsake, that is leave or abandon, himself; therefore that which forsakes and that which is forsaken must obviously be two different entities.

Mark 13:32:

“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.”

Mark 16

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

(Clearly Jesus cannot sit on the right hand of himself, therefore Jesus and God must be two distinct entities).

Luke 22:42: “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

(This verse shows that The Father and Son did not share the same objectives. The Son would just as soon have avoided His "death" but He acquiesced to the will of His Father.)

John 8:42:

“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”

(This verse ridicules the idea that God and Jesus are one. Jesus said He did not come of Himself but was sent by the Father. It is axiomatic that the one who sent and the one who was sent cannot be the same person. If Jesus and the Father really were one and the same, Jesus would have come of himself, and the words He said in John 8:42 could not be true.

John 14:28:

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”

(This is one of the strongest proofs that Father and Son are two separate entities and the Father is superior to the Son.)

John 20:17:

“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

(As a friend of mine once said, If Jesus is His own God, then I'm my own grandpa.)


1 Timothey 2:5-6:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(If Christ is a mediator between God and men, then logically He cannot be God.)

The above verses prove beyond the possibility of rational debate that Jesus and God are not the same. Only the most intellectually dishonest perversion of logic and language could reconcile such verses with the concept that Jesus and God are the same entity. Besides, if it needs explaining, it cannot possibly be the word of God.

However, although the cited verses clearly show that Jesus is merely the Son of God (the Father being greater than the Son), I acknowledge that there are also Bible verses which show Jesus is God Himself. Additionally, there are still other Bible verses which say that Jesus is a co-equal part of a divine trinity composed of three separate entities, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Here is the question: Are Jesus and God one and the same?


Here is the answer: It depends on which Bible verses you believe according to your individual interpretation.


However, there is one thing I will never understand. The Bible is replete with acknowledgments that God is eternal. If God could not die and Christ is God, the “sacrifice” on the cross is meaningless. If Christ is God, there was no death on the cross, no sacrifice. Eternal gods don't die. Only mortals die. Further, logic tells us that one cannot be all God and all man as some suggest.

There are more such verses of course, but I've shown enough to establish that those who believe that the Father and Son are two different entities and One is greater than the Other have a Biblical basis for their belief.

Your ignorance is appalling.

I've been studying the Bible since I was 12 and I'm now 78. I know the Book well and it is obvious you do not.

You and other Biblical illiterates cherry pick a verse or two while ignoring all other scripture in order to make a point. I fully acknowledged that there are verses in the Bible that tend to prove Jesus is God. I simply provided other scripture which – if taken literally – proves that He is not.

You know almost nothing about the Bible and very little about Christianity. There are some Christians who believe Jesus is God; there are others who believe He is the Son of God, the Father being greater than the Son;and there are still others who believe Jesus is a co-equal part of a Divine Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). Those Christians with different views of the nature of Jesus point to the same Bible to prove their point, and in each cases there is scripture which tends to support their beliefs.

As I said, the Question is: Is Jesus God?

And the answer is: It depends on the verses you quote and how you interpret them. Not everyone agrees with you; not every Christian agrees with you. You never addressed the scripture I provided. If all you have is “Your ignorance is appalling,” you've got nothing.

Conclusion: I provided many verses which – if taken literally - disprove the notion that Jesus is God. You have failed to address a single verse so I will assume that you don't want to debate the issue. If you want to discuss the various Christian views concerning the nature of Christ, let me know. Until then, have a good night. PS: After having studied the Bible for 66 years, I am convinced the Biblical message is that Christ is the Son of God, the Son being subservient to the Father.

 

[Likkmee]

Hold it. Yeshua went to the woods to pray to HIMSELF for 40 days and then he sent HIMSELF some angels to feed him(self) ? Read much ?
UM

Jesus the Bread of Life
…38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of allthose He has given Me, but raise them up atthe last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”…