Israel violates international law

[Sweet_Caroline]

NO it does not as the Palestinians not having singed up to them cant claim their protection. But Israel can having singed up so the Palestinians can still be tried for crimes under the Geneva conventions

You have never read the Geneva Conventions.

It says all signatories are bound by it regardless if the other party to a conflict has ratified the treaty. I suggest you read the 4th Geneva Conventions.

4th GC blah blah blah

Did you not read my link. Probably not, so here it is again. Read and learn.

Why Israel Is Not Violating Fourth Geneva Convention | United with Israel

 

[Phoenall]

Quadravius, et al,

This is a very chld-like assessment you have made.

Israel is committing genocide against palestinians too.
Israeli government is definitely guilty of 1 through 3, not sure about 4.

For example, when they massacred palestinians at jenin refugee camp, and bulldozed a civilian area. THAT is genocide.

Ill even go as far as saying that the government of israel is the worst offender of genocide anywhere in the world right now.

But they get a pass for it? Israel is the only government in the world that gets people defending them for acts of genocide. Most of them are paid shills on TV who just tow the zionist line to a T and get paid millions a year to do it. Sean hannity, glenn beck, bill oreilly, mike huckabee, etc.

(OBSERVATION)

Yes, the act of "Genocide" is defined by the International Criminal Code (Rome Statute).



(EXAMPLE WITH RESPECT TO INTENT)

13. In conclusion, the Arab Higher Committee Delegation wishes to stress the following:

(g) The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.​

I beg to remain, etc.
/s/ Isa Nakhleh
Representative of the
Arab Higher Committee​

(COMMENT)

In most wars you have the stand alone elements of:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;​

These are common element found in nearly every conflict. They do not imply "genocide." The elements of:

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.​

After more than six decades of conflict, it becomes pretty clear that if any of these element were true and applicable to the actions of the Israel, then a reasonable person would expect to see a significant decline in the population of the Arab-Palestinian both inside the sovereign territory of Israel and in the Occupied Territories. Clearly, we see the opposite.

We could argue all day about how the clause "to destroy, in whole or in part" applies, just as well as we could argue how we apply "a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." But, a key element of many crimes, as it is with genocide, is the "intent!" What we do see, in the claim, is the exact opposite. We see an express "intent" on the part of the Arab-Palestinian to kill every "man, woman and child" --- a very clear "intent" and articulated in no uncertain terms. AND, you have a very clear pattern of behaviors records that demonstrate the actual attempt to carry such a threat to its conclusion.

Most Respectfully,
R

I remember the West Bank before the settlements ... before the checkpoints ... before the six day war.

When it had been ethnically cleansed of all the Jews with a legal right to live there. When they were evicted by force of arms, beaten and abused with nothing left but the clothes on their backs. The intention was to wipe out every Jew in the M.E and rid the world of the scourge once and for all. And now islam is paying the price for the botched effort.

 

[Victory67]

4th GC blah blah blah

Did you not read my link. Probably not, so here it is again. Read and learn.

Why Israel Is Not Violating Fourth Geneva Convention | United with Israel

I have read the 4th Geneva Conventions. You clearly haven't.

The West Bank is covered by them as they are Occupied Territory, legally Occupied by Israel.

 

[Kondor3]

Its also fuels anger and animosity towards Israel and Israelis.

Israel exists.

Israelis exist.

That is sufficient to fuel anger and animosity towards them, on the part of many Muslims.

The language is merely a sidebar and footnote; used to express the real-world state of affairs.

Don't be absurd...........

No one wants Israel to cease to exist regardless of your selftalk. The world does want a just peace.. which Israel refused in the spring of 2002.

One need look no further than the Hamas (or older PLO) charter or the published oaths sworn by Muslim leadership in the early days fo the conflict to realize that most of the Muslims of the region want just that - the destruction of Israel.

All foreswearing of such earlier oaths to the contrary notwithstanding. Muslims are allowed to lie to non-Muslims under a variety of circumstances, and many spin-doctor and interpret such permissions to suit their own goals and agendas. Very few non-Muslims trust their word in such matters; Jewish and non-Jewish.

By 2002 the Israelis had given up on making peace with the Palestinians and embarked upon a course of land-annexation and eviction and expulsion. The optimum time for the Palestinians to make peace would have been prior to the 1967 Six Day War. The outcome of that war changed everything and hardened the Israeli heart. I don't blame 'em a bit, in retrospect.

"...How are Jewish people so different from others? What keeps them ... particularly Israelis.. so isolated and paranoid?..."

I seriously doubt that they are paranoid, collectively, but I'll invite one of our Jewish colleagues to address that. I'm not qualified.

As to what keeps them separate and isolated, you would do well to do some supplemental reading on the subject - with respect to their engaging in commerce and trade and their historical political and economic and religious needs to remain separate - in order to arrive at a better understanding of such things on your own. This tradition of separate-ness stretches back for more than a thousand years - quite probably into Antiquity, and certainly as far back as the closing centuries of the Western Roman Empire.

"...It can't be religion .. as many Jewish people are secular..."

It's a mix... again, some supplemental reading on the subject - or some feedback from a Jewish colleague here, knowledgeable on the subject - might prove to be of some use.

"...We had 300 Israeli families move to coastal Carolina about 1992.. Gad they were obnoxious.. so much so that even the long established Jewish community couldn't stand them."

Somebody else will have to address that one... again, I'm not qualified.

 

[Shaarona]

Quadravius, et al,

This is a very chld-like assessment you have made.


(OBSERVATION)

Yes, the act of "Genocide" is defined by the International Criminal Code (Rome Statute).



(EXAMPLE WITH RESPECT TO INTENT)


(COMMENT)

In most wars you have the stand alone elements of:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;​

These are common element found in nearly every conflict. They do not imply "genocide." The elements of:

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.​

After more than six decades of conflict, it becomes pretty clear that if any of these element were true and applicable to the actions of the Israel, then a reasonable person would expect to see a significant decline in the population of the Arab-Palestinian both inside the sovereign territory of Israel and in the Occupied Territories. Clearly, we see the opposite.

We could argue all day about how the clause "to destroy, in whole or in part" applies, just as well as we could argue how we apply "a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." But, a key element of many crimes, as it is with genocide, is the "intent!" What we do see, in the claim, is the exact opposite. We see an express "intent" on the part of the Arab-Palestinian to kill every "man, woman and child" --- a very clear "intent" and articulated in no uncertain terms. AND, you have a very clear pattern of behaviors records that demonstrate the actual attempt to carry such a threat to its conclusion.

Most Respectfully,
R

I remember the West Bank before the settlements ... before the checkpoints ... before the six day war.

When it had been ethnically cleansed of all the Jews with a legal right to live there. When they were evicted by force of arms, beaten and abused with nothing left but the clothes on their backs. The intention was to wipe out every Jew in the M.E and rid the world of the scourge once and for all. And now islam is paying the price for the botched effort.

Nonsense Arab Jews dribbled out in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973 because of the behavior of the Israelis. Do you ever stop playing the victim?

 

[Phoenall]

Israel is the price the Palestinians pay for the Holocaust in Europe.

Israel tried to forcibly relocate the rest of the Arabs in 1949 or 1950... Chaim Weizmann approached Ibn Saud to take them in to Arabia to build TAPLINE.. instead of giving those jobs to Saudis. He also approached ARAMCO.. and the US.. He wanted the US to pay for the relocation.

This is not well known but it is referenced in the Mulligan Papers.

Here we go again the islamonazi version of history. The setting up of Israel as a homeland for the Jews was put in place way back in the 1920's. So it had absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust. That is just an islamonazi BLOOD LIBEL. Read the history and you see that the muslims got 3 nations and Israel 1. It was the threats of islamonazi violence that has resulted in the situation we see now in the M.E. The only answer is to force the Palestinians into accepting a UN brokered peace and borders or they will get nothing.

The Muslims didn't get 3 countries... They already lived there.

Just as the Jews had, but then you don't like having that shown do you. But the countries did not exist under the ottoman empire and it took the mandate to create them. So the mandate created 3 new Islamic nations and 1 Jewish one from the mandate for palestine

 

[Shaarona]

Here we go again the islamonazi version of history. The setting up of Israel as a homeland for the Jews was put in place way back in the 1920's. So it had absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust. That is just an islamonazi BLOOD LIBEL. Read the history and you see that the muslims got 3 nations and Israel 1. It was the threats of islamonazi violence that has resulted in the situation we see now in the M.E. The only answer is to force the Palestinians into accepting a UN brokered peace and borders or they will get nothing.

The Muslims didn't get 3 countries... They already lived there.

Just as the Jews had, but then you don't like having that shown do you. But the countries did not exist under the ottoman empire and it took the mandate to create them. So the mandate created 3 new Islamic nations and 1 Jewish one from the mandate for palestine

Of course they were part of the Ottoman Empire.. but they were inhabited by Arabs NOT European immigrants. Take a look at BonFils photo from 1870 to 1890.

Jews were a minority and apparently did quite well getting along with their neighbors. Have you ever been to the West Bank?

 

[Phoenall]

This is the goal of many Israelis. They wish to force the millions of non-Jews in the West Bank to move to another state. It is because of this goal that Israel has so many enemies throughout the world. It is because of this goal that Israel has very few fans.

The only problem is those millions of non Jews have already admitted that they came from other nations, and once the problems are over will move back home.

Total bullshit.

WRONG as it is documented fact.

Hamas leader admits 'Palestinian' identity is invented - Israel Today | Israel News

In a televised address on Al-Hekma TV last week, Hamas Minister of the Interior and of National Security Fathi Hammad basically backed up Gingrich's assessment, acknowledging that the roots of most "Palestinians" are elsewhere in the Middle East, and that the Palestinian label is only a thin veneer.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Have you ever been to the West Bank?"

Forgive me for barging-in here, but, out of curiosity, have you, as a Westerner, ever spent any time living in Iran?

 

[Phoenall]

The only problem is those millions of non Jews have already admitted that they came from other nations, and once the problems are over will move back home.

Total bullshit.

Indeed, the vast majority of Palestinians have ancestors who predate Ottoman rule.

Yes from outside of Palestine.

Hamas admits 'Palestinian' identity is invented

"Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis," exclaimed the Hamas minister.

Hammad's remarks were undoubtedly never intended for a Western audience. Rather, he was pleading with Egypt and other neighboring states to supply Hamas-ruled Gaza with free fuel, which Hammad said Hamas would use "in order to continue to wage Jihad."
- See more at: Hamas admits 'Palestinian' identity is invented

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

4th GC blah blah blah

Did you not read my link. Probably not, so here it is again. Read and learn.

Why Israel Is Not Violating Fourth Geneva Convention | United with Israel

I have read the 4th Geneva Conventions. You clearly haven't.

The West Bank is covered by them as they are Occupied Territory, legally Occupied by Israel.

Had the land been taken by Israel in a attack and Israel forcibly moved its population into the WB then that would have been an illegal act.

However Israel got the land in a defensive war and of course it belonged to the Jews from the 1922 San Remo Mandate so on the two counts you lose your argument straight off.

You probably made your profile here on this forum getting so excited because of the 4th Geneva Convention and couldn't wait to splurge it on all the boards here - however it is not relevant. Sorry about that.

 

[Shaarona]

"...Have you ever been to the West Bank?"

Forgive me for barging-in here, but, out of curiosity, have you, as a Westerner, ever spent any time living in Iran?

I never lived in Iran.. but I did make more than a dozen trips there. You aren't barging in.

 

[Phoenall]

Indeed, the vast majority of Palestinians have ancestors who predate Ottoman rule.

Cool.

And they'll have plenty of time to update their family genealogy tree-records, once they're happily resettled someplace else, and out of harms' way, and where they, in turn, can do no harm.

Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, want to end up in court (and usually die of old age) in the Hague like those Serbs who tried the ethnically cleanse the Muslims from Bosnia?

How about the Jews that the muslims ethnically cleansed from the M.E. Over 1 million forcibly removed from their property and their goods stolen by the muslims starting in 1948. Care to take this matter up and explain why the muslims are given a free pass to ethnically cleanse Jews from the M.E.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, Indeependent, Victory67, et al,

Well, I can there is a bit of confusion here.

Its funny you say that the Mandate for Palestine is no longer valid because many Israelis argue that the promises made to the Jews in the Mandate are still valid.

Of course the Geneva Conventions covers the West Bank. It has a section just about Occupied Territories and the West Bank are clearly Occupied Territories.

The West Bank was legally Occupied by Jordan from 1949 to 1967 and now it is legally Occupied by Israel.

The West Bank of Jordan was OCCUPIED by Jordan or was PART of Jordan?

Occupied. It was occupied Palestinian land.

(COMMENT)

The West Bank was originally unallocated territory under the protection and Trusteeship of the UN. The UN intention was to Partition it to the Arab Higher Committee, as part of a new "Arab State." On the Day of Independence (establishment of the Jewish State under the guidance of Resolution 181), the Arab League invaded the UN Trusteeship territory and the State of Israel. The Arab Legion (Jordanian Army) originally "occupied" the West Bank. Armistice Line were agreed to in 1949, encompassing the West Bank. THEN, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan annex the territory:

On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further Zionist expansion.

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan now included nearly one and a half million people, more than half a million of whom were refugees evicted from Jewish-occupied Palestine. All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it. Although the Arab League opposed this plan, and no other Arab government followed Jordan’s lead, the Hashemite Kingdom offered the possibility of normal life for many people who would have otherwise remained stateless refugees.

SOURCE: History of Jordan: The Tragedy of Palestine

It was not "Occupied Palestinian Lands" as our friend "P F Tinmore" would have you believe. It was part of the unallocated portion of the "Arab State" recommended by the UN and rejected by the Arab Higher Committee.

To the HAMAS Jihadist, and the Fedayeen in the PLO, all the territory under the former Mandate of Palestine (less the Hashemite Kingdom) was some sort of bequest to the Palestinian people.

So, to recap,

• The West Bank went from UN Trusteeship to Occupied Territory by Jordanian in 1949.
• The West Bank went from Occupied Territory by Jordanian in 1949, to Sovereign Territory of Jordan in 1950.
• The West Bank went from Sovereign Territory of Jordan in 1950 to Occupied Territory by Israel in 1967;
• The Palestinian declared Independence in 1988, thus it become a "state" (State of Palestine) with a portion of it (the West Bank) simultaneously occupied ... and remains so - to present ...

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shaarona]

Total bullshit.

Indeed, the vast majority of Palestinians have ancestors who predate Ottoman rule.

Yes from outside of Palestine.

Hamas admits 'Palestinian' identity is invented

"Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis," exclaimed the Hamas minister.

Hammad's remarks were undoubtedly never intended for a Western audience. Rather, he was pleading with Egypt and other neighboring states to supply Hamas-ruled Gaza with free fuel, which Hammad said Hamas would use "in order to continue to wage Jihad."
- See more at: Hamas admits 'Palestinian' identity is invented

Where do you come up with this claptrap?

Do you know that HAMAS is also full of dummies like yourself?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Cool.

And they'll have plenty of time to update their family genealogy tree-records, once they're happily resettled someplace else, and out of harms' way, and where they, in turn, can do no harm.

Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, want to end up in court (and usually die of old age) in the Hague like those Serbs who tried the ethnically cleanse the Muslims from Bosnia?

How about the Jews that the muslims ethnically cleansed from the M.E. Over 1 million forcibly removed from their property and their goods stolen by the muslims starting in 1948. Care to take this matter up and explain why the muslims are given a free pass to ethnically cleanse Jews from the M.E.

Have the Jews contacted those countries to demand their right to return?

 

[Phoenall]

"...The Muslims didn't get 3 countries... They already lived there."

After spending centuries taking them from others...

Arabs have been all over the Levant, Syria etc for thousands of years.. long before Islam.. They began migrating from the Arabian peninsula between 10,000 and 6,000 BC.

But did not start on world domination until Mohamed invented islam, and gave them a religious order to kill the Jews and steal the land. The arabs you mention have all been wiped out by islam.

Hamas leader admits 'Palestinian' identity is invented

Those pushing for a Palestinian state try to paint the Palestinian Arabs as somehow distinct from the Arabs round-about, and therefore in need of their own state. Not so, said Hammad. "Every Palestinian, in Gaza and throughout Palestine, can prove his Arab roots - whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere. We have blood ties."

More than that, Hammad stated that the true regional background of most "Palestinians" is not in "Palestine."

 

[Victory67]

Had the land been taken by Israel in a attack and Israel forcibly moved its population into the WB then that would have been an illegal act.

However Israel got the land in a defensive war and of course it belonged to the Jews from the 1922 San Remo Mandate so on the two counts you lose your argument straight off.

You probably made your profile here on this forum getting so excited because of the 4th Geneva Convention and couldn't wait to splurge it on all the boards here - however it is not relevant. Sorry about that.

The 4th Geneva Conventions covers all Occupied Territory, be it conquered in a defensive or offensive war. How they got the land doesn't matter.

The San Remo Conference never gave all of Palestine to the Jews. Nowhere does it state this. Plus the Jews being allowed to settle in Palestine and create a homeland there was conditional upon the full and total protection and respect for non-Jewish rights in Palestine. Why do you ignore this?

 

[Shaarona]

Cool.

And they'll have plenty of time to update their family genealogy tree-records, once they're happily resettled someplace else, and out of harms' way, and where they, in turn, can do no harm.

Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, want to end up in court (and usually die of old age) in the Hague like those Serbs who tried the ethnically cleanse the Muslims from Bosnia?

How about the Jews that the muslims ethnically cleansed from the M.E. Over 1 million forcibly removed from their property and their goods stolen by the muslims starting in 1948. Care to take this matter up and explain why the muslims are given a free pass to ethnically cleanse Jews from the M.E.

Oh piffle.. stop lying.. It was more like 600,000 and they left in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973..

You all have a long history of exaggerations and epic lies that date to the Old Testament.

 

[Phoenall]

The mandate for Palestine was finished and no longer valid before Israel came into existence.. The Geneva conventions do not apply because they do not cover the west bank. Now what aspect of the UN charter are they in breach of, lets see if we can make it 3 out of 3 that you know diddly squat about.

Its funny you say that the Mandate for Palestine is no longer valid because many Israelis argue that the promises made to the Jews in the Mandate are still valid.

Of course the Geneva Conventions covers the West Bank. It has a section just about Occupied Territories and the West Bank are clearly Occupied Territories.

The West Bank was legally Occupied by Jordan from 1949 to 1967 and now it is legally Occupied by Israel.

That only applies to those nations bound by the Geneva conventions, Palestine is not bound by the Geneva conventions as they have not signed up to them. Try reading the conventions fully and not cherry picking the parts that suit your POV.