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Mary asks us to pray with her. We ask Mary to pray with us. You seem to be saying Mary should be excluded from the Body of Christ, from worship, when the Church gathers to pray. She should be shunned, not allowed to join in community prayers. I expect you feel the same about Catholics, at the beginning of Mass ask angels and saints to join in prayer as well?"Honored" does not mean prayed to, it does not mean revered, it means respected and honored.
Are you aware that Jews in Jesus day, in Biblical times prayed for the dead, that Jesus celebrated Hanukah as written about in the Book of Maccabees which addresses purification following death.
Purgatory is not mentioned in the Bible, what is mentioned is a place where the dead waited until Christ came to preach to them.
Then why did the Apostles continue the practice instead of speaking out about this?We don't go there now because He's opened the door directly to God.
1. Mary asking you to pray with her is church tradition with no Scriptural backing.Mary asks us to pray with her. We ask Mary to pray with us. You seem to be saying Mary should be excluded from the Body of Christ, from worship, when the Church gathers to pray. She should be shunned, not allowed to join in community prayers. I expect you feel the same about Catholics, at the beginning of Mass ask angels and saints to join in prayer as well?
That's a thinly veiled insult and not worthy of a response beyond this.Shunning is some show of respect and honor. Who else do you recommend the community of believers leave out when gathering to pray to the Lord? Or, do you believe prayer should always be a solitary practice where it is one person and no one else?
Those again are traditions. Jews have traditions, Catholics have traditions. Where they are not addressed in Scripture is where they can be questioned.Are you aware that Jews in Jesus day, in Biblical times prayed for the dead, that Jesus celebrated Hanukah as written about in the Book of Maccabees which addresses purification following death.
The Apostles were not all on the same page about some very critical things. Can you at least show me in Scripture where the Apostles said we were commanded to pray for the dead?Then why did the Apostles continue the practice instead of speaking out about this?
Luther "decided" it wasn't needed because he went back into the Scriptures, studying them intently, and couldn't find where it was commanded. He was being led by God to question all the "traditions" and suffocating corruption that was strangling the Church. Once again, when it comes to a conflict between tradition and Scripture, tradition loses. My own denomination that I grew up in, the Conservative Mennonite Conference, had traditions that were once valuable but were no longer pertinent to the modern world and not Scripturally sound, so they had to be modified or rejected outright. Every generation should examine everything it believes and practices to be sure they are Scripturally sound. Traditions can be jettisoned if they no longer serve their purpose.Instead Jews and the Church continue practicing prayers for the purification of the dead until Martin Luther, decided this wasn't needed. Jews, Catholics, and Orthodox continue the practice. Jesus did make reference to this, in speaking about purification and restitution. The door to God is opened. There is a big difference in belief that this door opens upon death and belief it opens upon final purification.
1. It is more than Church tradition. It has continued down through the centuries.1. Mary asking you to pray with her is church tradition with no Scriptural backing.
2. Even IF she is listening for you to ask her to pray with you, from where do you get the idea that she's equipped to hear millions of people simultaneously asking her to pray for things, AND, you might not agree, but there are a lot of people who ask her for things, not just to pray with them.
No, it is not an insult. Nor is it thinly veiled. It is the truth and that truth (and rightly so) stings. Doesn't it? As well it should.That's a thinly veiled insult and not worthy of a response beyond this.
Seriously? Reference and mention to these "traditions" have been presented--backed by scripture--as well. But closed hearts have ways of throwing out Biblical books, and being blind to all mention of purification in the afterlife. Luther started a new tradition, whose practice began in the sixteenth century. That tradition: No need to be bothered with the pesky business of praying for those who have passed on.Those again are traditions. Jews have traditions, Catholics have traditions. Where they are not addressed in Scripture is where they can be questioned.
I was asking you for the scripture where all the Apostles who were raised in the practice of praying for the dead, and the Maccabees story being celebrated each year, telling early Christians: "No longer any need to pray for the dead." Paul said no such thing. It was Martin Luther, sixteen centuries later, who said to stop doing it.The Apostles were not all on the same page about some very critical things. Can you at least show me in Scripture where the Apostles said we were commanded to pray for the dead?
I believe Luther missed a lot. Again, most likely due to language change. Do you believe all Luther said/wrote about Jews? Probably not. Yet you believe him when he said prayers for those who have passed on are not needed.Luther "decided" it wasn't needed because he went back into the Scriptures, studying them intently, and couldn't find where it was commanded. He was being led by God to question all the "traditions" and suffocating corruption that was strangling the Church. Once again, when it comes to a conflict between tradition and Scripture, tradition loses. My own denomination that I grew up in, the Conservative Mennonite Conference, had traditions that were once valuable but were no longer pertinent to the modern world and not Scripturally sound, so they had to be modified or rejected outright. Every generation should examine everything it believes and practices to be sure they are Scripturally sound. Traditions can be jettisoned if they no longer serve their purpose.
It's not Scriptural though.1. It is more than Church tradition. It has continued down through the centuries.
Because when a leader says, "Let us pray", he is the one praying and the congregation prays silently along with him. If everyone just prays whatever they wish, the result is chaos (I have been in prayer services like that) and God is not a God of chaos. The bottom line remains, however, that untold millions of Catholics are all beseeching Mary to pray for and with (and to help) them all at the same time all around the world. That means that there are literally millions of prayers that she would have to hear and handle. Do you deny that? And this is not throwing mud, it's simply noting that nowhere in Scripture does it indicate that she has the special ability to hear millions of prayers simultaneously and do something with them.2. When you worship and pray in church, can you identify and distinguish individual voices? Or, do you hear all merging into one voice? Does anyone in your church ever address the congregation, saying, "Let us pray."? And if that happens does the congregation fall over in shock thinking, S/he is asking us to pray to him/her!
If not, then why that desperate need to accuse Catholics of praying to Mary instead of the truth that all are joining in prayer to God? I don't get it. Why the slander? Why the need to make mud and throw it?
Where in the Jewish Scripture (the one that the early Church used) does it say to pray for the dead? If it's just a tradition and not from Scripture, it can be questioned.I was asking you for the scripture where all the Apostles who were raised in the practice of praying for the dead, and the Maccabees story being celebrated each year, telling early Christians: "No longer any need to pray for the dead." Paul said no such thing. It was Martin Luther, sixteen centuries later, who said to stop doing it.
Show me that scripture where the Apostles said not to pray for those who had passed on. It was important enough for the change in dietary practice be mentioned, but not important to also write about how unnecessary it was to pray for those who passed?
Jews pray for the dead. Muslims pray for the dead. Catholics/Orthodox pray for the dead. Protestants departed from the practice.
I just want to know where in Scripture it says it IS needed. If it's not there, it's valid to be questioned.I believe Luther missed a lot. Again, most likely due to language change. Do you believe all Luther said/wrote about Jews? Probably not. Yet you believe him when he said prayers for those who have passed on are not needed.
It's a dumb question, because nowhere have I indicated that prayer is solely a lone practice. I simply do not believe that dead ancestors are listening to and can handle millions of prayers on a daily basis.No, it is not an insult. Nor is it thinly veiled. It is the truth and that truth (and rightly so) stings. Doesn't it? As well it should.
You keep missing the point. For example, your church community never prays the Lord's prayer together? One person prays it aloud while everyone else remains silent?Because when a leader says, "Let us pray", he is the one praying and the congregation prays silently along with him. If everyone just prays whatever they wish, the result is chaos (I have been in prayer services like that) and God is not a God of chaos. The bottom line remains, however, that untold millions of Catholics are all beseeching Mary to pray for and with (and to help) them all at the same time all around the world. That means that there are literally millions of prayers that she would have to hear and handle. Do you deny that? And this is not throwing mud, it's simply noting that nowhere in Scripture does it indicate that she has the special ability to hear millions of prayers simultaneously and do something with them.
Asked and answered.Where in the Jewish Scripture (the one that the early Church used) does it say to pray for the dead? If it's just a tradition and not from Scripture, it can be questioned.
Not when it is known that prayers for the dead were the norm in Jesus' and still are apart from Protestants. The first we hear that they aren't needed is from Martin Luther, sixteen centuries later.I just want to know where in Scripture it says it IS needed. If it's not there, it's valid to be questioned.
Again, why the belief that prayer is burdensome not uplifting?It's a dumb question, because nowhere have I indicated that prayer is solely a lone practice. I simply do not believe that dead ancestors are listening to and can handle millions of prayers on a daily basis.
Is Peter the first Pope? ...
Oh by the way, Putinist: Did you tell Putin to leave the Ukraine with all of "his" soldiers?Peter and Paul between them moulded a Cult Religion which was picked up by Deep State as a Control asset but is now in the midst of dumping it .
You no longer need old fashioned Cult Conditioning techniques at the dawn of AI.
AI rang the death knell for Cult Christianity . As it will do for Judaism and Islam , though the latter might need more time to vanquish
Purgatory is just one excellent Deep State control mechanism that worked spendidly against a certain type for a long time .
Still does, but, with the predictable decline of Cult Christianity, it is now better seen as an absurd construct which uncluttered minds soon work out .
I’m just following the Bible.
... To sum this all up Joseph Smith said an incredible statement: the book of Revelation was the plainest book God caused to be written.