Zone1 Is the Catholic tradition of Papacy something Jesus mentioned ?

[Cougarbear]

Do you believe you and I arguing over this ^^^ will bring us closer to God?

I’m not arguing. I’m giving you facts that logically should bring you closer to where I’m standing with God.

 

[ding]

I’m not arguing. I’m giving you facts that logically should bring you closer to where I’m standing with God.

So you are closer to God than I am because your doctrine "gives hope for our ancestors of our individual families that never had the opportunity to hear the true and fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and receive by covenant through ordinances such as baptism by water and of the spirit?"

Or is that I am further away from God than you are because "my gospel does not give this hope and damns everyone who ever lived and will lived without knowing and having the opportunity to be baptized by water and of the spirit with full authority?"

And you believe telling me these things is bringing you closer to God?

 

[Cougarbear]

So you are closer to God than I am because your doctrine "gives hope for our ancestors of our individual families that never had the opportunity to hear the true and fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and receive by covenant through ordinances such as baptism by water and of the spirit?"

Or is that I am further away from God than you are because "my gospel does not give this hope and damns everyone who ever lived and will lived without knowing and having the opportunity to be baptized by water and of the spirit with full authority?"

And you believe telling me these things is bringing you closer to God?

100% correct! All you care about is your small network of living people who are just like you. All 100 billion who have ever lived are my brothers and sisters, family. We care about them. You don’t.

 

[ding]

100% correct! All you care about is your small network of living people who are just like you. All 100 billion who have ever lived are my brothers and sisters, family. We care about them. You don’t.

You don't know what I care about. You only think you do. It's better to be curious than judgmental.

The Bible encourages a posture of humble inquiry over harsh judgment, emphasizing self-reflection and grace, with key verses like Matthew 7:1-5 (speck and log) and Luke 6:37 (don't judge/condemn) warning against hypocrisy and promoting forgiveness, while John 7:24 calls for righteous judgment, not just outward appearance, and Proverbs 18:13 warns against answering before hearing, all pointing toward understanding and mercy instead of snap condemnation.

 

[ding]

100% correct!

If you believe behaving like this is bringing you closer to God, you are wrong.

 

[Cougarbear]

You don't know what I care about. You only think you do. It's better to be curious than judgmental.

The Bible encourages a posture of humble inquiry over harsh judgment, emphasizing self-reflection and grace, with key verses like Matthew 7:1-5 (speck and log) and Luke 6:37 (don't judge/condemn) warning against hypocrisy and promoting forgiveness, while John 7:24 calls for righteous judgment, not just outward appearance, and Proverbs 18:13 warns against answering before hearing, all pointing toward understanding and mercy instead of snap condemnation.

Strawman alert! I do know some things about you. You do gymnastics to justify your church’s inability to minister to your dead ancestors who had no chance to be taught the Gospel and have the necessary ordinances performed for them since they are earthly ordinances that can’t be performed in the spirit world. Instead, you twist the words to fit your lack of belief. Peter taught no one will not have the opportunity for eternal life exalted in the celestial glory as Paul also taught. I used to be lost in your belief. Not anymore.

 

[Cougarbear]

If you believe behaving like this is bringing you closer to God, you are wrong.

If you aren’t humble enough to learn doctrine that your prudent men hide, then you are not progressing toward being a joint heir of Father in Heaven. Wake up!

 

[ding]

If you aren’t humble enough to learn doctrine that your prudent men hide, then you are not progressing toward being a joint heir of Father in Heaven. Wake up!

My obligation has been satisfied. Do as you wish. It doesn't affect me at all.

 

[Cougarbear]

My obligation has been satisfied. Do as you wish. It doesn't affect me at all.

You brought up being humble. Have you asked yourself why you interpret 1Peter chapters 3 and 4 with respect to Jesus, while his body lay in the tomb, goes to where the spirits of the dead who did not know a thing about him and his gospel? There's only one reason that this has been recently twisted towards your interpretation, to try and silence The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints message that brought in a million new converts last year. That's who you are listening to. AI is too. JW's do this because they only believe 144,000 will make it to Heaven.

 

[ding]

You brought up being humble. Have you asked yourself why you interpret 1Peter chapters 3 and 4 with respect to Jesus, while his body lay in the tomb, goes to where the spirits of the dead who did not know a thing about him and his gospel? There's only one reason that this has been recently twisted towards your interpretation, to try and silence The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints message that brought in a million new converts last year. That's who you are listening to. AI is too. JW's do this because they only believe 144,000 will make it to Heaven.

Titus 3:10

 

[Cougarbear]

Titus 3:10

that’s all you have? Don’t worry, I will take care of your ancestors for you.

 

[ding]

that’s all you have? Don’t worry, I will take care of your ancestors for you.

You do that and don't forget to feel superior when you do.

 

[ding]

that’s all you have?

Since when has scripture never been enough?

 

[Cougarbear]

You do that and don't forget to feel superior when you do.

Oh no. Not at all. It’s a privilege to help those who are dead physically and can’t do it on their own because your scholar ministers make filthy money stopping them from receiving their blessings of baptism and the rest. It’s an honor to serve you.

 

[Cougarbear]

Since when has scripture never been enough?

It’s your opinion, not truth.

 

[lightspectera]

.
One thing to consider is that many man made organizations build their entire faith system based upon one single line or one phrase of a sentence
or even a half or partial sentence, especially in the Roman Catholic faith system - - the Catholic Church takes even single words and convert them into - " power words "

for example the Greek word " Eucharist " = means, simply thankful

millions of Roman Catholics are hearing this word mentioned every day without even taking a single moment to realize the true meaning of the word.

in fact Peter is not addressing Roman Catholic Priests or Popes nor addressing Rome in - 1Pe 1: 1 - 5

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

:5 You also, as living stones, - are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Anointing.

in truth ..... peter is speaking to

the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, are as living stones, - whom are building up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,

nowhere is Rome mentioned

Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia were all each at least = 1000 miles away from Rome !

Peter never mentions Rome nor anywhere near Rome when saying that all believers are - as living stones .... building up a spiritual house
Jesus delivered the same exact message to Peter saying ......

.... thou art Petro and upon this Petra I will build my church
Jesus described peter as a the little small stone that is built upon Jesus Christ the main stone Petra

the scriptures describe Peter a nothing more than a small stone as Peter also gives the same description to all believers building the Church,....... had Jesus went on to explain that the other stones or believers are built on top of Peter that would be something that would definably and distinctly would set Peter apart from all other Apostles and Prophets


we see ..
Eph 2:20 - the Church .... is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

there is nothing in Scripture that sets Peter apart from any other apostle or prophet and Paul makes this very clear .

St. Paul removes any notion of any hierarchy any system of Levels / Ranks: - or a Church power from high to low where authority and power is delegated

please notice
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? '
:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon....


:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one....

Paul is making it clear, very clear that there is no such a notion of a supreme leader and that 2Co 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

if we use the Roman Catholic standard of theology and decision we would have to conclude that Peter was insufficient and a failure as where Paul was there to correct and rebuke Peter when Peter began to attempt to take authority upon himself.


Paul Opposes Peter
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

here, St. Paul is rebuking and correcting Peter because Peter already teaching contrary to the Gospel

Barnabas and Peter both were were beginning to separate themselves and attach themselves to a group of people who were filled with deceit (“hypocrisy”): - condemnation, dissimulation, hypocrisy
Paul takes Peter and rebukes him to straighten him out and tells him :18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

this is the Peter of the Bible - who takes the St. Paul as the true authority over him and submits to the Holy Spirit under the leadership and guidance of St Paul

for St. Paul - :10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, Peter was no masterbuilder - not a bishop - Peter not a leader and not anywhere near Rome

- in fact, Peter letters are written to cities that are over 1000 miles away from Rome. God chose Paul to go to Rome and this is where he was arrested, imprisoned and served the death penalty
in - Italy, Rome. Paul never started any church in Rome as the Italian government immediately chopped of his head soon after his arrival.

:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? '

 

[lightspectera]

if we could take a look at what Peter mentioned concerning his own authority and how he explained his role in the Church



1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
here, Peter explains that he is an " Elder " - I ... am also an elder,

Peter says he is a " FELLOW ELDER " OR " CO - ELDER " just like other elders ....

in fact the Greek word " Πρεσβυτερους" means - ELDER "

and " συμπρεσβυτερος " means - = "a fellow elder" or "co-elder " - a joined elder

- I ... am also an elder... just as other elders
furthermore, Peter calls Jesus = the chief Shepherd

:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

and finally

:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility............


there simply is no Scriptural basis to lay the claim that the Bible mentions anything about giving Peter a position of authority that is not also subscribed to others serving with him.


the Original message of the Greek manuscript for - Joh 20:23

:23

αν IF - τινων WHOM - αφητε YIELDING UP / PUTTING AWAY - τας THAT

- αμαρτιας SIN - αφιενται ARE PUT AWAY / IS YIELDED UP - ARE LEFT -

αυτοις THEM -


αν IF - τινων WHOM - κρατητε KEEPS / HOLDS - κεκρατηνται ARE KEPT

/ ARE HELD​

IF WHOM YIELDING UP / PUTTING AWAY THAT SIN, IS PUT AWAY / IS YIELDED UP / LEFT THEM -

IF WHOM KEEPS / HOLDS - ARE KEPT / HELD


This is the basic word for word ancient Greek text as it originally is written, to go in and begin deliberately translating the ancient basic text to render it into a Catholic or Protestant Priestly role simply is not the contextually honesty of the original transmitted text.

 

[there4eyeM]

Jesus' teaching is that there is one "Father" to be worshiped.

 

[lightspectera]

i believe that by looking at the original words of " Joh 20:23 " as that are written in their original meaning and as a word for word script the meaning of this is very, very limited and very, very restricted as far as what Peter or any other human can do as having authority and power to provide the believer ability to be putting away and remitting their sins ..

the scriptures are saying clearly and simply / plainly - that the individual is free of any sins they put away and any sins they keep and retain and fail to let go of

these sins are kept and the individual is not free of the sin they keep, as they continue to hold on to the sin

this is a very, very limiting passage that completely is totally void of any priest, individual or another person having any ability to provide forgiveness for another person

who holds on to a sin -they still are keeping that sin - who retains and keeps their sin that sin is kept

who lets go of a sin - that sin is loosed from them -

should we not just read the plain and simple text as it was originally written in ancient Greek, there are many other Greek passages that make attempts to explain a clear and concise and exact precision of the meanings of Christian doctrines and teachings

this text simply is the total opposite of anything regarding a priestly authoritative order gifted with a supernatural ability to provide forgiveness for another persons sins..

do Catholic or Protestant Priests forgive another of their sins - or do they provide that final crucial step in the forgiveness process simply by receiving the confession ?

the Catholic Faith System demands that a Priest is necessary or critical for one confessing sins

does not the following passages complete the understanding

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

this is the same as saying = IF WHOMEVER YIELDS UP / PUTS AWAY THAT SIN,

IS PUT AWAY / LEFT THEM -

IF WHOM KEEPS / HOLDS - - ARE KEPT / ARE HELD

 

[DennisPTate]

.

We see clearly in Mat 16:19 Jesus is speaking to Peter directly concerning the " KEYS TO THE KINGDOM "


but why is it that Roman Catholics do not mention that this was a message and meaning that Jesus mentions multiple times

we see that this conversation with Peter is where Jesus was located,

Jesus was = in the coasts of Caesarea Philippi

:13 Jesus was in the coasts of Caesarea Philippi - He tells Peter about the
" Keys To The Kingdom "

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus ......... bringeth them up into an high mountain apart

:9 And - they came down from the mountain,

Jesus then travels to Galilee and spends at least 1 day preaching to the people


Jesus then travels 20 miles to Capernaum and again he makes the same statement to all of his disciples with a little child sitting with them all.

Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them

this is at least a full week later and Jesus again makes the same exact statement - -

ONLY HE IS NOT SPEAKING TO PETER ALONE AND HE ALSO EXPLAINS EXACTLY WHAT IS THE EXACT MEANING OF " THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM "

WHAT THIS MEANS - - EXACLTY

Jesus speaking of his his disciples with a little child sitting there with them

Jesus explains to them all -----------


Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Again I say unto you,.............................

:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.



but why is it that Roman Catholics friends specifically fail to mention that a whole week later Jesus goes on to explain exactly in detail what this means

as he provides details that " THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM " are about praying and joining others in prayer - and coming together in agreement to pray

" THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM " - are described exactly - as two or more believers whom shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven

2 or more pray and agree on earth - it shall be done - in heaven


Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

how is this something that the Pope in Rome can make claim to insist that this strictly applies to his position of authority alone ?

Would not this one dishonest claim completely void the authority of the entire Roman Catholic Church and its Papal Traditions ?

In a way Jesus and Paul hinted at the Papacy when they both told Christians to pray for political leaders.