Is going to college beneficial or is that a lie?

[Darkwind]

I'm tempted to agree...but the lack of a "truth in lending" requirement for student loans based on the value of the degree is deceptive. There should be the equivalent of an appraisal on degrees in various majors from the particular school. There is no return on education analysis. It's fraudulent to hand out $Ten Thousands in loans to somebody with no income without an ROE analysis.

I

Is there something wrong with a student understanding what the degree will earn them post graduation, prior to taking the loan?

When I went after My degree, I did so on the criteria of:

1. Would I enjoy the career?
2. Will I get adequately compensated for it? (this is a personal determination. Some people won't be adequately compensated (in their mind anyway) if they are making six figures right out of the box)
3. Will I be able to advance My knowledge and income in a reasonable amount of time.

I considered number 3 an option, not a necessity. That was because I know I have a knack for increasing My self worth and will always rise to the top. However, I did the research before I applied for the loan. I actually settled for a field I was not as interested in primarily because the minor and major were complementary and the loans were a lot cheaper.

I didn't say that. I said that anyone taking out a loan should evaluate the expected return on the investment.

That is exactly what I have been saying. We don't need a 'truth in lending' law for educational loans. The responsibility of knowing what return on your investment of education will be, is wholly upon the individual.

 

[KevinWestern]

It isn't mandatory. You can do something else that does not require the degree.

Apparently, they cannot. It may be that folks in the past, could do a mediocre job and the employer determined they needed more than just getting by, and decided the job requires more education. Or it could be that that process of the job has become so much more complicated that it requires someone who had more critical thinking skills than just rote task management. Who knows. Here is an idea. Perhaps there are still employers out there that don't require the degree. Find them and apply for that job. This still boils down to you want.

Your are bogged down with debt before you draw your first breath of air. You are NOT bogged down with debt because of education. That is a voluntary choice.

Your entire stance revolves around you thinking that your every want and desire should be fulfilled without any cost to yourself.

How is it that you can even think that?

Darkwind, you can hold the insults and get off your glorious high horse there. Might I ask your age?

You try finding a well paying job in this economy without a degree. I've got quite a few friends who bypassed college and are having a hell of a time finding anything near what the degree fields will pay.

I live in the real world, and suggest you join me.

College costs are rising at 2x the rate of inflation; it's a major issue that deserves some attention.

I haven't insulted you.

You simply don't seem to be able to see how childish your position is.

YOU WANT to have this job, but you don't want to have to pay for it. This is an attitude that I have seen often. You think that your desires and wants should be met, without cost to you. That isn't an insult. That is an objective analysis of what you are saying.

If you want a well paying job, YOU are going to have to PAY for it. That is called a fact of life. To Me, you are just whining because they didn't have to pay for in the past, but I have to now.

The world is more complex and requires more intellectual training than it did 30, 40, 50 years ago.

I get tired of the "I want" attitude of the world today.

"Want" in one hand, and shit in the other and tell Me what you end up with.

Dark wind, the world is more complex, but modern conveniences has made many tasks much more simpler. Excel has reduced hours of bookwork down to a ten minute task.

I'm just a tad upset that my entire generation is required to pay tens of thousands of dollars to enter into the fields that your generation got into for much less. We feel scammed in that respect.

You should get off your high horse there, bud.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Not everyone wants or needs a college education. Though a college education doesn't make someone smarter, it does provide a broad understanding of all aspects of anthropology*** and practical training in critical thinking.

*** "Anthropology is the study of humans, past and present. To understand the full sweep and complexity of cultures across all of human history, anthropology draws and builds upon knowledge from the social and biological sciences as well as the humanities and physical sciences. A central concern of anthropologists is the application of knowledge to the solution of human problems. Historically, anthropologists in the United States have been trained in one of four areas: sociocultural anthropology, biological/physical anthropology, archeology, and linguistics."

What is Anthropology?

Not having the skills noted above may explain why some are so susceptible to the influence of demagogues and charlatans and support simple solutions to complex problems.

 

[Asclepias]

Wrong on all counts.
Some of the stats are because the groups are self selecting. If you shut down all colleges the same people who would have gone will still do better than the people who would not have gone.
We see the unemployment/underemployment rate of recent grads is close to 50%. That represents tremendous waste, both of time and money. Many people in college had no business going in the first place. They would have been far better off training as welders or mechanics--areas where they had actual talent. Instead they waste their time taking courses they dont really understand and being subjected to indoctrination by ivory tower liberals.

How can you possible prove that? Basically what you are saying is that people that are college bound are predetermined to be successful. Thats not even close to being true. There are a lot of billionaires and millionaires that would disagree.

I realize from the other thread that you are not very bright and so cannot make logical inferences from written statements.
But what I wrote is that people that go to college tend to be brighter and more motivated than people who don't. Note the word "tend". therefore they will do better no matter what. College is not the cause of their success but the effect of it.

You said the same people that would have gone. That means they didn't go correct?

 

[KevinWestern]

What does that matter? Again, that is a choice.

Do you think that you are owed a career in finance?

No, I do not.

But finance was an example. Nowadays most all well paying fields require a degree whereas 40 years those SAME well paying fields did not.

Keyword: same.

I'm upset with the double standard that has been created. Understand?

There IS NO double standard.

The world has changed. For better or worse, you adapt to meet it, or you perish.

I understand the world has changed. But there were difficult jobs back then that required no more than an apprenticeship, whereas no you need to dish out 60k. That is a double standard.

But are you implying that we can't call out inefficient practices and systems that were set in place by the generation prior?

I need to be called "childish" for that?

 

[The Rabbi]

How can you possible prove that? Basically what you are saying is that people that are college bound are predetermined to be successful. Thats not even close to being true. There are a lot of billionaires and millionaires that would disagree.

I realize from the other thread that you are not very bright and so cannot make logical inferences from written statements.
But what I wrote is that people that go to college tend to be brighter and more motivated than people who don't. Note the word "tend". therefore they will do better no matter what. College is not the cause of their success but the effect of it.

You said the same people that would have gone. That means they didn't go correct?

Yeah, dude. Whatever.

 

[Unkotare]

I

Is there something wrong with a student understanding what the degree will earn them post graduation, prior to taking the loan?

When I went after My degree, I did so on the criteria of:

1. Would I enjoy the career?
2. Will I get adequately compensated for it? (this is a personal determination. Some people won't be adequately compensated (in their mind anyway) if they are making six figures right out of the box)
3. Will I be able to advance My knowledge and income in a reasonable amount of time.

I considered number 3 an option, not a necessity. That was because I know I have a knack for increasing My self worth and will always rise to the top. However, I did the research before I applied for the loan. I actually settled for a field I was not as interested in primarily because the minor and major were complementary and the loans were a lot cheaper.

I didn't say that. I said that anyone taking out a loan should evaluate the expected return on the investment.

That is exactly what I have been saying. We don't need a 'truth in lending' law for educational loans. The responsibility of knowing what return on your investment of education will be, is wholly upon the individual.

Exactly. If someone cannot figure out that a degree in Lesbian Albino Interpretive Dance History isn't going to allow you to pay back that 60k very quickly, then maybe you just proved you're unqualified for college. If you decide you want that degree anyway, then the choice is yours. Who knows, you may end up a billionaire owing in part to the experiences and connections you made while getting that degree. The degree may open completely unrelated doors, as is often the case. No guarantees except the promise you make when you take out that loan.

 

[Asclepias]

I realize from the other thread that you are not very bright and so cannot make logical inferences from written statements.
But what I wrote is that people that go to college tend to be brighter and more motivated than people who don't. Note the word "tend". therefore they will do better no matter what. College is not the cause of their success but the effect of it.

You said the same people that would have gone. That means they didn't go correct?

Yeah, dude. Whatever.

Dont get mad. what do you mean then?

 

[The Rabbi]

No, I do not.

But finance was an example. Nowadays most all well paying fields require a degree whereas 40 years those SAME well paying fields did not.

Keyword: same.

I'm upset with the double standard that has been created. Understand?

There IS NO double standard.

The world has changed. For better or worse, you adapt to meet it, or you perish.

I understand the world has changed.

Are you implying that we can't call out inefficient practices and systems that were set in place by the generation prior?

I need to be called "childish" for that?

You guys are debating a separate problem. This is one that can be termed "credentialing". If you dont have X degree then you cannot get a job in Y field. Of course from a skill standpoint you dont need X degree to do Y job. But it is easier to look at a piece of paper and check yes or no than to evaluate a candidate on his skill set.
Credentialing is a huge problem in itself and worthy of another thread. One aspect of it is what we see all the time. For example, look at Steven Chu, the energy secretary. He's done a terrible job. But because he has a Nobel Prize he must be good at what he does. He isn't. A Nobel Prize indicates something but competence to run a gov't department is not it. Most of Obama's cabinet is like that.

 

[Unkotare]

Dark wind, the world is more complex, but modern conveniences has made many tasks much more [sic] simpler. Excel has reduced hours of bookwork down to a ten minute task.

I'm just a tad upset that my entire generation is required to pay tens of thousands of dollars to enter into the fields that your generation got into for much less. We feel scammed in that respect.

Maybe 'your generation' should study a little English grammar. Being able to communicate well is useful in any field.

 

[Wry Catcher]

There IS NO double standard.

The world has changed. For better or worse, you adapt to meet it, or you perish.

I understand the world has changed.

Are you implying that we can't call out inefficient practices and systems that were set in place by the generation prior?

I need to be called "childish" for that?

You guys are debating a separate problem. This is one that can be termed "credentialing". If you dont have X degree then you cannot get a job in Y field. Of course from a skill standpoint you dont need X degree to do Y job. But it is easier to look at a piece of paper and check yes or no than to evaluate a candidate on his skill set.
Credentialing is a huge problem in itself and worthy of another thread. One aspect of it is what we see all the time. For example, look at Steven Chu, the energy secretary. He's done a terrible job. But because he has a Nobel Prize he must be good at what he does. He isn't. A Nobel Prize indicates something but competence to run a gov't department is not it. Most of Obama's cabinet is like that.

Is it you opinion that Steven Chu has done a "terrible job" or do you have evidence?

 

[Darkwind]

Darkwind, you can hold the insults and get off your glorious high horse there. Might I ask your age?

You try finding a well paying job in this economy without a degree. I've got quite a few friends who bypassed college and are having a hell of a time finding anything near what the degree fields will pay.

I live in the real world, and suggest you join me.

College costs are rising at 2x the rate of inflation; it's a major issue that deserves some attention.

I haven't insulted you.

You simply don't seem to be able to see how childish your position is.

YOU WANT to have this job, but you don't want to have to pay for it. This is an attitude that I have seen often. You think that your desires and wants should be met, without cost to you. That isn't an insult. That is an objective analysis of what you are saying.

If you want a well paying job, YOU are going to have to PAY for it. That is called a fact of life. To Me, you are just whining because they didn't have to pay for in the past, but I have to now.

The world is more complex and requires more intellectual training than it did 30, 40, 50 years ago.

I get tired of the "I want" attitude of the world today.

"Want" in one hand, and shit in the other and tell Me what you end up with.

Dark wind, the world is more complex, but modern conveniences has made many tasks much more simpler. Excel has reduced hours of bookwork down to a ten minute task.

I'm just a tad upset that my entire generation is required to pay tens of thousands of dollars to enter into the fields that your generation got into for much less. We feel scammed in that respect.

You should get off your high horse there, bud.

Well, look at it this way.

Back in the day, they made 15k a year for their job that didn't require a degree. Today, that same job, with much better tools and easier ways of doing things, will now net you 100k a year.

The point being, only YOU can make the determination if the trade off is worth it to you.

I'm not on a high horse. Like I said. I hear a lot of "I want". I get a lot of that from My grandson who will be turning 3 in October.

Do you know what I want?

I want to hear from you, and those of your generation, the words, "I can...."

• I can make this degree work for me.
• I can make the sacrifice to pay off this massive loan in half the time.
• I can start a business on the side, and take any and all profits not needed to be reinvested to pay off that loan even faster.
• I can promote private investments in my chosen career to provide for methods to ease financial burdens on people who will need this degree and more in the future.

I have had coworkers and even friends and family who spend more time whining and expending more energy in how they can't get what they want, than the energy and time it would have taken them to actually do the things that would give them what they wanted.


Maybe you think I'm on a high horse, but I started out dirt poor. I made the sacrifices and choices that moved Me ahead in life. Sure, I whined and felt sorry for Myself.



For a small amount of time.



I never, ever, thought that My every desire and want should be instantly fulfilled or met without a personal cost.


That is the end of My participation in this thread.

 

[Asclepias]

Why do people get upset instead of explaining their opinion? Is it because you think you sound dumb admitting you made a mistake?

 

[KevinWestern]

Dark wind, the world is more complex, but modern conveniences has made many tasks much more [sic] simpler. Excel has reduced hours of bookwork down to a ten minute task.

I'm just a tad upset that my entire generation is required to pay tens of thousands of dollars to enter into the fields that your generation got into for much less. We feel scammed in that respect.

Maybe 'your generation' should study a little English grammar. Being able to communicate well is useful in any field.

On phone, dude, and typing quickly.

Seems you've run out of examples related to the topic at hand so you're now digging at off topic tidbits.

Very impressive.

.

 

[Darkwind]

I didn't say that. I said that anyone taking out a loan should evaluate the expected return on the investment.

That is exactly what I have been saying. We don't need a 'truth in lending' law for educational loans. The responsibility of knowing what return on your investment of education will be, is wholly upon the individual.

Exactly. If someone cannot figure out that a degree in Lesbian Albino Interpretive Dance History isn't going to allow you to pay back that 60k very quickly, then maybe you just proved you're unqualified for college. If you decide you want that degree anyway, then the choice is yours. Who knows, you may end up a billionaire owing in part to the experiences and connections you made while getting that degree. The degree may open completely unrelated doors, as is often the case. No guarantees except the promise you make when you take out that loan.

Well, thats the thing and one of the reasons that the number one criteria was would I enjoy it.

No one ever worked a day doing something they enjoyed or loved. If basket weaving is your passion, then pursue it and I'll wish you the very best.

Just don't expect that the return on the investment will be measured in a short amount of time.

 

[Unkotare]

Dark wind, the world is more complex, but modern conveniences has made many tasks much more [sic] simpler. Excel has reduced hours of bookwork down to a ten minute task.

I'm just a tad upset that my entire generation is required to pay tens of thousands of dollars to enter into the fields that your generation got into for much less. We feel scammed in that respect.

Maybe 'your generation' should study a little English grammar. Being able to communicate well is useful in any field.

On phone, dude, and typing quickly.

Seems you've run out of examples related to the topic at hand so you're now digging at off topic tidbits.

Very impressive.

.

You haven't addressed any of the points and examples provided so far with anything more than "me no like!" "me want, me want!" so you're in no position to determine what is "impressive" or not.

 

[Asclepias]

That is exactly what I have been saying. We don't need a 'truth in lending' law for educational loans. The responsibility of knowing what return on your investment of education will be, is wholly upon the individual.

Exactly. If someone cannot figure out that a degree in Lesbian Albino Interpretive Dance History isn't going to allow you to pay back that 60k very quickly, then maybe you just proved you're unqualified for college. If you decide you want that degree anyway, then the choice is yours. Who knows, you may end up a billionaire owing in part to the experiences and connections you made while getting that degree. The degree may open completely unrelated doors, as is often the case. No guarantees except the promise you make when you take out that loan.

Well, thats the thing and one of the reasons that the number one criteria was would I enjoy it.

No one ever worked a day doing something they enjoyed or loved. If basket weaving is your passion, then pursue it and I'll wish you the very best.

Just don't expect that the return on the investment will be measured in a short amount of time.

I agree. Paying for college is an investment just like any other thing you do in life. If you dont have the skills or knowledge to do something you pay or invest in the opportunity to acquire those skills, knowledge, and proof from an accredited source saying this is true..

 

[KevinWestern]

Maybe 'your generation' should study a little English grammar. Being able to communicate well is useful in any field.

On phone, dude, and typing quickly.

Seems you've run out of examples related to the topic at hand so you're now digging at off topic tidbits.

Very impressive.

.

You haven't addressed any of the points and examples provided so far with anything more than "me no like!" "me want, me want!" so you're in no position to determine what is "impressive" or not.

You haven't brought up any points so far except for accusing me of those things.

Once again, I'm a bit frustrated that younger folks need to pay 60k nowadays for a job of the same difficulty that your generation was able to do for no education.

Seems a bit of a scam.

 

[Unkotare]

On phone, dude, and typing quickly.

Seems you've run out of examples related to the topic at hand so you're now digging at off topic tidbits.

Very impressive.

.

You haven't addressed any of the points and examples provided so far with anything more than "me no like!" "me want, me want!" so you're in no position to determine what is "impressive" or not.

You haven't brought up any points so far except for accusing me of those things.

Once again, I'm a bit frustrated that younger folks need to pay 60k nowadays for a job of the same difficulty that your generation was able to do for no education.

Seems a bit of a scam.

If you are not going to address the points raised then don't complain and don't blame your phone for poor communication skills. You are "a bit" of a whiner, and you seem to think me much older than I am.

 

[KevinWestern]

You haven't addressed any of the points and examples provided so far with anything more than "me no like!" "me want, me want!" so you're in no position to determine what is "impressive" or not.

You haven't brought up any points so far except for accusing me of those things.

Once again, I'm a bit frustrated that younger folks need to pay 60k nowadays for a job of the same difficulty that your generation was able to do for no education.

Seems a bit of a scam.

If you are not going to address the points raised then don't complain and don't blame your phone for poor communication skills. You are "a bit" of a whiner, and you seem to think me much older than I am.

I'm rather sure you're much older than me, and you are "a bit" of a know-whats-best for everyone else type personality.

Anyways, going to retire for a bit.