In a Perfect World...

[Care4all]

Well... In an Almost Perfect World...

Wouldn't it be great if the EU and all of their countries, the UN whole heartedly, and the surrounding middle east countries around Iraq would decide that for their own personal benefit, it would be in their very best interest, to send peace keepers, and forces, and humanitarians, and electritians, and plumbers, and teachers, and doctors and nurses in to Iraq so that it could stand as a country in peace?

I know it is a dream, but man oh man, we really could use some help with our "mess ups"....

Why isn't groveling permitted? Is it a "male hormone" thing or what? I would have been on my knees already if I were President, begging for forgiveness in flubbing it and asking for help from our allies....groveling, so to say, for the help!

care

 

[Superlative]

The US can show no weakness.

We are a Super Power, and we are acting like one.

Apologies are for the weak.

Might Makes Right.

 

[Care4all]

The US can show no weakness.

We are a Super Power, and we are acting like one.

Apologies are for the weak.

Might Makes Right.[/QUOTE]

Even if hundreds of thousands of additional innocent Iraqi people die?

....the last analysis was hitting near 700,000 Iraqis have died since we invaded and even if that is some evil liberal bastian of a report, cut it in half and it is 350k...

I can't justify that, in any moral sense, nor in your idea of making us safer by doing such, which I presume is what you are thinking?

And you don't think we look "weak" now in the eyes of the world or terrorists? How could finding a way to get your allies to pitch in for their own sake or groveling for such help, really be a weakness when the ends would justify the means.....? the help and peace in Iraq being the means....

Care

 

[Annie]

The US can show no weakness.

We are a Super Power, and we are acting like one.

Apologies are for the weak.

Might Makes Right.

Truly, you are clueless. Not only do you fail to make the point that 'we' are wrong, you also fail to make an argument that we should be doing differently.

 

[Alucard]

Well... In an Almost Perfect World...


I know it is a dream, but man oh man, we really could use some help with our "mess ups"....


care

What exactly are our "mess ups"...?

Besides civilian Americans poisoning the efforts I cant think of any...

 

[Superlative]

I guess I should have made apparent my Liberal Sarcasm.

Letting up, backing down, asking for help, saying sorry, admitting wrong,

Thats just not how the US rolls.

Especially if you look at this through the eyes of the Hawks that started this, anything short of victory is defeat, plain and simple, just check with RSR.

The US will pour money and bullets into Iraq until there is an "America Day Parade" through Baghdad.

Or we'll get it down to one or two car bombings a month, and call it even, "Iraq is safe-er than it was when we made it unsafe" Go Team!

 

[Alucard]

I guess I should have made apparent my Liberal Sarcasm.

Letting up, backing down, asking for help, saying sorry, admitting wrong,

Thats just not how the US rolls.

Especially if you look at this through the eyes of the Hawks that started this, anything short of victory is defeat, plain and simple, just check with RSR.

The US will pour money and bullets into Iraq until there is an "America Day Parade" through Baghdad.

Or we'll get it down to one or two car bombings a month, and call it even, "Iraq is safe-er than it was when we made it unsafe" Go Team!

I like the way you take the reasons for war... wmd's... terrorists breading grounds... and change them to what works for you by the week... Making the area safer now huh?

 

[Care4all]

What exactly are our "mess ups"...?

Besides civilian Americans poisoning the efforts I cant think of any...

Not securing the borders with enough soldiers to keep alqaeda types out.

Releasing the Bathists in one sweap from all security forces.

Not securing and reestablishing their electricity and not giving them clean water IMMEDIATELY.

Not securing warehouses of ammunition when we first went in and allowing insurgents to use this ammunition in roadside bombs.

Not supplying the peace that is REQUIRED in a JUST WAR for the iraqi people as the occupying force.

I can go on and on but it all boils down to NEVER HAVING ENOUGH TROOPS FROM THE GET GO TO GET THE JOB DONE, properly and in the manner that the civilian Iraqi people justly deserved.

And I haven't even mentioned that we were ill prepared on "knowing" the different tribes of people that resided in Iraq and the enmity that existed.

Care

 

[Superlative]

I like the way you take the reasons for war... wmd's... terrorists breading grounds... and change them to what works for you by the week... Making the area safer now huh?

I dont quite follow, sorry.

But I will tell you this, There will be no leaving Iraq, and there will be no apologizing, or asking for help.

This isnt even a war anymore it never really was, it is an occupation and has been for a long time.

The US currently occupies a nation it doesnt understand, a people it cannot understand.

We are in a country trying to spread democracy to a people who only know fighting, a people that only know religion and who only know how to be ruled by an iron fisted dictator.

The US wants someone in power that will be sympathetic to US needs, but the people of Iraq will not tolerate this if it is blatently obvious.

The US had unfounded sympathy in Iraq immediatly after 9/11,

Now the US garners unfounded hatred from a people that have been at war for more that 27 years. Fueled in part to the US. (Mujahadeen different thread)

I find it unbelievable that there are Right wingers who in their heart of hearts believe that the US did not make a concious decision to raise the threat of terrorist atrocities by invading a country and inadvertantly killing civilians in a war.

You honestly think that the 65,000 - 700,000 people killed did not have some kind of family?
A family that if is still alive, most likely blames the US.

A family that only knows war and religion and that as long as they have been able to understand, the US has had a boot on their neck.

Iran has a population in which nearly all ar under the age of 25?

Can you understand this?

All of their parents are dead from fighting.

These people grow up hard fast and strong.

If the US stays, it must endure whatever it takes until pease is achieved.

If the US leaves, it must take responsibility for the chaos that has been created and try to do right by fixing it.

What will happen? I dont know. and I dont have any answers, the variables are too great.

Everyone can argue till the Mujahadeen come home, but the fact of the matter is the US is occupying another country and alot of people are dying as a result.

There seems to be no going forward or going back at this very moment.

So we wait.

And we dont say sorry until we absolutely have to, and we cant tell everyone we did the right thing until it all works out.

 

[Care4all]

I guess I should have made apparent my Liberal Sarcasm.

Letting up, backing down, asking for help, saying sorry, admitting wrong,

Thats just not how the US rolls.

Especially if you look at this through the eyes of the Hawks that started this, anything short of victory is defeat, plain and simple, just check with RSR.

The US will pour money and bullets into Iraq until there is an "America Day Parade" through Baghdad.

Or we'll get it down to one or two car bombings a month, and call it even, "Iraq is safe-er than it was when we made it unsafe" Go Team!

Ahhh, sarcasm... still too new to determine "such" from all of you, but I will get there!

Care

 

[onedomino]

Well... In an Almost Perfect World...

Wouldn't it be great if the EU and all of their countries, the UN whole heartedly, and the surrounding middle east countries around Iraq would decide that for their own personal benefit, it would be in their very best interest, to send peace keepers, and forces, and humanitarians, and electritians, and plumbers, and teachers, and doctors and nurses in to Iraq so that it could stand as a country in peace?

I understand your sentiment. But there really is no such thing as the EU; the French and others voted down the proposed EU Constitution. Regardless, there is no EU military force that can help. The European countries let their individual militaries decay after the Soviet Union collapsed. Only the British were capable of very much, and their 15k troops in southern Iraq, combined with their contribution in Afghanistan, was about all they could handle. The French and the Germans actively worked against the American invasion of Iraq. America was dramatically let down in Iraq by the French, Germans, and Canadians. To this day, as far as I know, they have done absolutely nothing to help. Though that might be slightly different with the Canadians, but not by much. Expect more of that in the future. People say that the French and Germans are not anti American, just anti Bush. My experiences in those countries in 2002-3 do not support that theory. And the situation has only gotten worse since then. Young French and Germans are very anti American. The media in both France and Germany are rabidly anti American. The US got the support it could out of Europe. Britain, Spain (at least initially, until the Socialists won the election) Poland, Italy, Czech Republic, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Georgia, and others. But it was never in the cards that we would get any help from France or Germany. Even to this day in Afghanistan, French and German troops, on the orders of their governments, do not fight against the Taliban. They stay in uncontested northern areas of the country. The fighting against the Taliban is done by the Americans, British, Danes, Australians, Canadians (at least they stepped up in Afghanistan), and Afghan Army.

 

[Annie]

I guess I should have made apparent my Liberal Sarcasm.

Letting up, backing down, asking for help, saying sorry, admitting wrong,

Thats just not how the US rolls.

Especially if you look at this through the eyes of the Hawks that started this, anything short of victory is defeat, plain and simple, just check with RSR.

The US will pour money and bullets into Iraq until there is an "America Day Parade" through Baghdad.

Or we'll get it down to one or two car bombings a month, and call it even, "Iraq is safe-er than it was when we made it unsafe" Go Team!

Until this, I thought you were reasonable, via your take. No longer. Your sense of 'history' is wrong or ill formed.

 

[maineman]

What exactly are our "mess ups"...?

Besides civilian Americans poisoning the efforts I cant think of any...

I can think of a couple, right off the top of my heard:

1. taking our eye off the target - that being islamic extremism - as we invaded Iraq that, regardless of our opinions about them, was doing a credible job of keeping islamic extremists at bay.

2. unleashing, by our ineffective post-conquest occupation, the spectre of sectarian violence that many in the middle east think may spread throughout the region.

 

[Alucard]

b
Releasing the Bathists in one sweap from all security forces.

Not securing and reestablishing their electricity and not giving them clean water IMMEDIATELY.

Not securing warehouses of ammunition when we first went in and allowing insurgents to use this ammunition in roadside bombs.

Not supplying the peace that is REQUIRED in a JUST WAR for the iraqi people as the occupying force.

I can go on and on but it all boils down to NEVER HAVING ENOUGH TROOPS FROM THE GET GO TO GET THE JOB DONE, properly and in the manner that the civilian Iraqi people justly deserved.

And I haven't even mentioned that we were ill prepared on "knowing" the different tribes of people that resided in Iraq and the enmity that existed.

Care

Not securing the borders with enough soldiers to keep alqaeda types out.?

we cant secure our own borders not to mention the border countries Iran and syria are helping the " alqaeda types " get in...

Releasing the Bathists in one sweap from all security forces?

If we didnt you would be screaming that their rights were being violated..

Not securing and reestablishing their electricity and not giving them clean water IMMEDIATELY?

Your kidding me right

Not securing warehouses of ammunition when we first went in and allowing insurgents to use this ammunition in roadside bombs.

The ammunition being used is coming in through Iran... Where do you get this crap the NY Times,CNN(clinton news network)

Not supplying the peace that is REQUIRED in a JUST WAR for the iraqi people as the occupying force?

This just proves your ignorance,I guess oppression and threat of mustard gassing was better for them... Did you forget the fact that THEY ARE GLAD WE ARE THERE...

I can go on and on but it all boils down to NEVER HAVING ENOUGH TROOPS FROM THE GET GO TO GET THE JOB DONE, properly and in the manner that the civilian Iraqi people justly deserved?

So you must support the troop surge, correct?...

And I haven't even mentioned that we were ill prepared on "knowing" the different tribes of people that resided in Iraq and the enmity that existed?

Again, your misinformed and assuming...

Your a finger pointer... But you have no answers that will help achieve success to the situation except retreat ... In other words a liberal...

 

[Care4all]

Not securing the borders with enough soldiers to keep alqaeda types out.?

we cant secure our own borders not to mention the border countries Iran and syria are helping the " alqaeda types " get in...

Releasing the Bathists in one sweap from all security forces?

If we didnt you would be screaming that their rights were being violated..

Not securing and reestablishing their electricity and not giving them clean water IMMEDIATELY?

Your kidding me right

Not securing warehouses of ammunition when we first went in and allowing insurgents to use this ammunition in roadside bombs.

The ammunition being used is coming in through Iran... Where do you get this crap the NY Times,CNN(clinton news network)

Not supplying the peace that is REQUIRED in a JUST WAR for the iraqi people as the occupying force?

This just proves your ignorance,I guess oppression and threat of mustard gassing was better for them... Did you forget the fact that THEY ARE GLAD WE ARE THERE...

I can go on and on but it all boils down to NEVER HAVING ENOUGH TROOPS FROM THE GET GO TO GET THE JOB DONE, properly and in the manner that the civilian Iraqi people justly deserved?

So you must support the troop surge, correct?...

And I haven't even mentioned that we were ill prepared on "knowing" the different tribes of people that resided in Iraq and the enmity that existed?

Again, your misinformed and assuming...

Your a finger pointer... But you have no answers that will help achieve success to the situation except retreat ... In other words a liberal...

alucard... i think you might be a little too quick on your answers and defense of the issues i brought up...

they are all legitimate criticisms. imo

care

 

[Alucard]

I can think of a couple, right off the top of my heard:

1. taking our eye off the target - that being islamic extremism - as we invaded Iraq that, regardless of our opinions about them, was doing a credible job of keeping islamic extremists at bay.

2. unleashing, by our ineffective post-conquest occupation, the spectre of sectarian violence that many in the middle east think may spread throughout the region.

If you call embracing training grounds for islamic extremists, keeping them at bay I'm glad you retired!

 

[Alucard]

alucard... i think you might be a little too quick on your answers and defense of the issues i brought up...

they are all legitimate criticisms. imo

care

My point was ... There are two sides to every coin...I wasnt trying to critique your post... I'm sorry it looked that way...

 

[maineman]

If you call embracing training grounds for islamic extremists, keeping them at bay I'm glad you retired!

I think you need to be able to disntinguish between arab nationalists and wahabbists. Saddam certainly embraced the former and was as threatened by the latter as we were.


If you need me to explain that distinction, I will be happy to.

 

[Gunny]

Well... In an Almost Perfect World...

Wouldn't it be great if the EU and all of their countries, the UN whole heartedly, and the surrounding middle east countries around Iraq would decide that for their own personal benefit, it would be in their very best interest, to send peace keepers, and forces, and humanitarians, and electritians, and plumbers, and teachers, and doctors and nurses in to Iraq so that it could stand as a country in peace?

No.

I know it is a dream, but man oh man, we really could use some help with our "mess ups"....

Why isn't groveling permitted? Is it a "male hormone" thing or what? I would have been on my knees already if I were President, begging for forgiveness in flubbing it and asking for help from our allies....groveling, so to say, for the help!

care

Grovelling is being weak. You want to grovel, knock yourself out.

 

[Gunny]

Not securing the borders with enough soldiers to keep alqaeda types out.

Releasing the Bathists in one sweap from all security forces.

Not securing and reestablishing their electricity and not giving them clean water IMMEDIATELY.

Not securing warehouses of ammunition when we first went in and allowing insurgents to use this ammunition in roadside bombs.

Not supplying the peace that is REQUIRED in a JUST WAR for the iraqi people as the occupying force.

I can go on and on but it all boils down to NEVER HAVING ENOUGH TROOPS FROM THE GET GO TO GET THE JOB DONE, properly and in the manner that the civilian Iraqi people justly deserved.

And I haven't even mentioned that we were ill prepared on "knowing" the different tribes of people that resided in Iraq and the enmity that existed.

Care

Wow. Got those talking points down, huh?