I'm sorry.

[Magnificat]

I never understood why God, who supposedly has a perfect plan for everybody would change that plan, and screw all that up just because somebody asked him to.

It’s the whole he experiences time all at once thingee.

You know that's bullshit, right?

I guess you can look at the subject from any position they all have some truth in them Me I don't have a clue just what the books and people have told me. Why should I believe them they have not information more than I have. Its all dust in the wind. When you die you might have more info, just let me know what the truth is.

I'm not saying there is no God. I guess it is a possibility. I just haven't seen much reason to believe there is, and an all powerful being would have to be an asshole to hide proof of his existence, and then punish everybody who wasn't aware of him.

The evidence for God is all around you.

 

[ding]

I never understood why God, who supposedly has a perfect plan for everybody would change that plan, and screw all that up just because somebody asked him to.

It’s the whole he experiences time all at once thingee.

You know that's bullshit, right?

I guess you can look at the subject from any position they all have some truth in them Me I don't have a clue just what the books and people have told me. Why should I believe them they have not information more than I have. Its all dust in the wind. When you die you might have more info, just let me know what the truth is.

I'm not saying there is no God. I guess it is a possibility. I just haven't seen much reason to believe there is, and an all powerful being would have to be an asshole to hide proof of his existence, and then punish everybody who wasn't aware of him.

The evidence for God is all around you.

And in us.

 

[ding]

I guess you can look at the subject from any position they all have some truth in them Me I don't have a clue just what the books and people have told me. Why should I believe them they have not information more than I have. Its all dust in the wind. When you die you might have more info, just let me know what the truth is.

I'm not saying there is no God. I guess it is a possibility. I just haven't seen much reason to believe there is, and an all powerful being would have to be an asshole to hide proof of his existence, and then punish everybody who wasn't aware of him.

Maybe your perception of God is all wrong.

How do you perceive God?

If I could perceive God, I would be an avid believer. Nothing there to perceive but a bunch of old stories in a book.

I think you are using a different meaning of perception than I am.

My perception of God is consciousness without form.

That mind rather than being a late outgrowth of space and time is the source or matrix of reality. That mind created the material world so that beings that know and create would eventually arise.

That is not perception. That is imagination. You can imagine anything you want.

No. It is a valid thought experiment. Either space and time were created from nothing by spirit or it wasn’t. It seems to me that rather than studying the evidence at your disposal to seriously consider both propositions that you have made the leap of faith that the material world created itself from nothing.

Which is probably why you can’t come up with one single possible perception for God.

 

[Hollie]

I never understood why God, who supposedly has a perfect plan for everybody would change that plan, and screw all that up just because somebody asked him to.

It’s the whole he experiences time all at once thingee.

You know that's bullshit, right?

I guess you can look at the subject from any position they all have some truth in them Me I don't have a clue just what the books and people have told me. Why should I believe them they have not information more than I have. Its all dust in the wind. When you die you might have more info, just let me know what the truth is.

I'm not saying there is no God. I guess it is a possibility. I just haven't seen much reason to believe there is, and an all powerful being would have to be an asshole to hide proof of his existence, and then punish everybody who wasn't aware of him.

The evidence for God is all around you.

What evidence?

Just as important, what gods is there evidence for?

 

[BULLDOG]

I'm not saying there is no God. I guess it is a possibility. I just haven't seen much reason to believe there is, and an all powerful being would have to be an asshole to hide proof of his existence, and then punish everybody who wasn't aware of him.

Maybe your perception of God is all wrong.

How do you perceive God?

If I could perceive God, I would be an avid believer. Nothing there to perceive but a bunch of old stories in a book.

I think you are using a different meaning of perception than I am.

My perception of God is consciousness without form.

That mind rather than being a late outgrowth of space and time is the source or matrix of reality. That mind created the material world so that beings that know and create would eventually arise.

That is not perception. That is imagination. You can imagine anything you want.

No. It is a valid thought experiment. Either space and time were created from nothing by spirit or it wasn’t. It seems to me that rather than studying the evidence at your disposal to seriously consider both propositions that you have made the leap of faith that the material world created itself from nothing.

Which is probably why you can’t come up with one single possible perception for God.

No leap of faith involved. Making the best judgement from the information available isn't faith.

 

[ding]

Maybe your perception of God is all wrong.

How do you perceive God?

If I could perceive God, I would be an avid believer. Nothing there to perceive but a bunch of old stories in a book.

I think you are using a different meaning of perception than I am.

My perception of God is consciousness without form.

That mind rather than being a late outgrowth of space and time is the source or matrix of reality. That mind created the material world so that beings that know and create would eventually arise.

That is not perception. That is imagination. You can imagine anything you want.

No. It is a valid thought experiment. Either space and time were created from nothing by spirit or it wasn’t. It seems to me that rather than studying the evidence at your disposal to seriously consider both propositions that you have made the leap of faith that the material world created itself from nothing.

Which is probably why you can’t come up with one single possible perception for God.

No leap of faith involved. Making the best judgement from the information available isn't faith.

What available information did you base your judgment upon?

 

[ding]

It’s the whole he experiences time all at once thingee.

You know that's bullshit, right?

I guess you can look at the subject from any position they all have some truth in them Me I don't have a clue just what the books and people have told me. Why should I believe them they have not information more than I have. Its all dust in the wind. When you die you might have more info, just let me know what the truth is.

I'm not saying there is no God. I guess it is a possibility. I just haven't seen much reason to believe there is, and an all powerful being would have to be an asshole to hide proof of his existence, and then punish everybody who wasn't aware of him.

The evidence for God is all around you.

What evidence?

Just as important, what gods is there evidence for?

The creation of space and time, physical laws, biological laws and moral laws.

 

[emilynghiem]

Well Bezukhov
At least the Messiah's name wasn't on the spelling list.
To turn the whole contest into a debate whether his name
is REALLY spelled Yeshua, Yashua, Joshua, Jesus etc etc.

But seriously, the miracle of God and Jesus is being everywhere at once.
If we equate JESUS with JUSTICE, it's like saying there can be
Justice for All everywhere, in all people and relationships.

The spirit of Justice or Jesus watches over and guides all humanity.
The more we forgive one another, the more Perfect Justice we
can receive in relationships. And where we agree to receive
forgiveness and correction, then our relations are made new
through "Christ Jesus" or "Restorative Justice" for lasting peace.

Yet we all know there isn't justice for all. Cliches like that sound sweet, but we both know they are bullshit. This is where you say something about "free will". With your definition of fee will, justice will be denied to countless people, blowing your claim that it is universally possible into tiny pieces.

Sure BULLDOG
if you are SO SURE there is NO such thing as "Justice for All"
why STATE that in our national Pledge of Allegiance?

Why have "Equal Justice Under Law"
emblazoned on our Supreme Court as the Motto?

We still believe it is the standard to STRIVE for, right?

If not, YOU ARE RIGHT -- we should quit promoting FRAUD and have it REMOVED!!

Just like removing Jesus, God and Crosses from public buildings
if these things are IMAGINARY FAITH BASED OR OTHERWISE NONEXISTENT.

BULLDOG do you want to be the first to write up
and promote a Petition to REMOVE "Equal Justice Under Law"
and ALL references to "Liberty and Justice for All" if
these ideals are nonexistent?

Do you agree to argue to stop
perpetuating FRAUD by false claims
and misrepresentations of things our
Govt and laws PROMISE but can NEVER deliver.

If, as you argue, Justice for all is nonexistent?

 

[BULLDOG]

You know that's bullshit, right?

I guess you can look at the subject from any position they all have some truth in them Me I don't have a clue just what the books and people have told me. Why should I believe them they have not information more than I have. Its all dust in the wind. When you die you might have more info, just let me know what the truth is.

I'm not saying there is no God. I guess it is a possibility. I just haven't seen much reason to believe there is, and an all powerful being would have to be an asshole to hide proof of his existence, and then punish everybody who wasn't aware of him.

The evidence for God is all around you.

What evidence?

Just as important, what gods is there evidence for?

The creation of space and time, physical laws, biological laws and moral laws.

Those things exist. They are not proof that a god exists.

 

[emilynghiem]

I never understood why God, who supposedly has a perfect plan for everybody would change that plan, and screw all that up just because somebody asked him to.

BULLDOG it's more like whatever is the supreme plan or will for humanity
is already designed to happen, because the human conscience is designed
to seek peace, love, truth and justice and to avoid problems of fear, stress, abuse,
and conflict. So the perfect solutions will eventually prevail over problems and their causes.

In the meantime, while human will and reason isn't perfect, we struggle to RECONCILE
with whatever is the perfect unifying and universal solution that will end and prevent all strife.

So the purpose of praying for forgiveness, redemption and grace/salvation in "Christ Jesus"
is to receive Restorative Justice that will govern the process of corrections and restoration
of justice and peace for all.

In your earlier post you argue these things have never existed.
Maybe not YET on the earthly level where our society operates.

but on a SPIRITUAL level, many people have already FOUND connection
with the universal "peace and justice" that exists on HIGHER COLLECTIVE
levels transcending time, space and the history we have seen so far.

That "peace of mind" and "sense of justice" comes from the FUTURE,
and is nothing we have seen in the past, except in specific cases or
glimpses where people have acted out of Justice with Mercy and
established Peaceful Just relations with each other or within small groups or projects.

Collectively, all these relations, institutions and groups working for
UNIVERSAL peace and justice would all have to connect in perfect unity.

That hasn't happened GLOBALLY in the real world,
but people over the centuries and continents have already
CONNECTED on that level of "perfect peace and justice"
on a SPIRITUAL Collective level.

Again the point of AGREEING to unite by Conscience or by Christ
and RECEIVE this universal Spirit and commitment to
Restorative Justice, Justice with Mercy, Peace and Justice for all,
is what ALLOWS the COLLECTIVE spirit of Universal Justice
to become embodied in each person, in our relations, and
in our institutions, nations and society.

It is an ongoing cumulative process of building up to
"equal justice" in ALL our relations, starting with ourselves
and the people closest to us, then extending outward from there.

When everyone agrees to receive each other in this spirit BULLDOG
then collectively the whole world, all of humanity receives PEACE
and this is what it means for SALVATION to come through Christ Jesus.

We all agree and commit to live by the spirit of Restorative Justice.
So that's where we AGREE to enforce and follow Equal Justice for All.

The spirit comes THROUGH us when we agree to forgive
past injustices, wrongs and divisive conflicts and wars,
and receive understanding where we can establish
agreement in the spirit of Truth, Justice and Peace universally.

This process HAS been going on, and growing continuously
over the past 2000 years, BULLDOG but we cannot even
see it working until we forgive the pains of the past so we
can see into the future and what this process is leading to.

 

[BULLDOG]

Well Bezukhov
At least the Messiah's name wasn't on the spelling list.
To turn the whole contest into a debate whether his name
is REALLY spelled Yeshua, Yashua, Joshua, Jesus etc etc.

But seriously, the miracle of God and Jesus is being everywhere at once.
If we equate JESUS with JUSTICE, it's like saying there can be
Justice for All everywhere, in all people and relationships.

The spirit of Justice or Jesus watches over and guides all humanity.
The more we forgive one another, the more Perfect Justice we
can receive in relationships. And where we agree to receive
forgiveness and correction, then our relations are made new
through "Christ Jesus" or "Restorative Justice" for lasting peace.

Yet we all know there isn't justice for all. Cliches like that sound sweet, but we both know they are bullshit. This is where you say something about "free will". With your definition of fee will, justice will be denied to countless people, blowing your claim that it is universally possible into tiny pieces.

Sure BULLDOG
if you are SO SURE there is NO such thing as "Justice for All"
why STATE that in our national Pledge of Allegiance?

Why have "Equal Justice Under Law"
emblazoned on our Supreme Court as the Motto?

We still believe it is the standard to STRIVE for, right?

If not, YOU ARE RIGHT -- we should quit promoting FRAUD and have it REMOVED!!

Just like removing Jesus, God and Crosses from public buildings
if these things are IMAGINARY FAITH BASED OR OTHERWISE NONEXISTENT.

BULLDOG do you want to be the first to write up
and promote a Petition to REMOVE "Equal Justice Under Law"
and ALL references to "Liberty and Justice for All" if
these ideals are nonexistent?

Do you agree to argue to stop
perpetuating FRAUD by false claims
and misrepresentations of things our
Govt and laws PROMISE but can NEVER deliver.

If, as you argue, Justice for all is nonexistent?

Wow, You didn't even sneak up on it. You just jumped right into the deep end of absurdity right off the bat, didn't you? I never said that wasn't something to strive for, only that it doesn't exist. Our Pledge of Allegiance also says we are One Nation, indivisible. You can tell by reading posts of crazy right wingers here who are having wet dreams at the thought of an armed civil war that we are very much divisible. I assume that you are smart enough to know your absurd remark is bullshit, but I'm a bit offended to see you think I'm not. I will continue to argue for things like justice for all, while knowing that does not exist to the extent that it should,, and probably never will.

 

[irosie91]

Well Bezukhov
At least the Messiah's name wasn't on the spelling list.
To turn the whole contest into a debate whether his name
is REALLY spelled Yeshua, Yashua, Joshua, Jesus etc etc.

But seriously, the miracle of God and Jesus is being everywhere at once.
If we equate JESUS with JUSTICE, it's like saying there can be
Justice for All everywhere, in all people and relationships.

The spirit of Justice or Jesus watches over and guides all humanity.
The more we forgive one another, the more Perfect Justice we
can receive in relationships. And where we agree to receive
forgiveness and correction, then our relations are made new
through "Christ Jesus" or "Restorative Justice" for lasting peace.

Yet we all know there isn't justice for all. Cliches like that sound sweet, but we both know they are bullshit. This is where you say something about "free will". With your definition of fee will, justice will be denied to countless people, blowing your claim that it is universally possible into tiny pieces.

Sure BULLDOG
if you are SO SURE there is NO such thing as "Justice for All"
why STATE that in our national Pledge of Allegiance?

Why have "Equal Justice Under Law"
emblazoned on our Supreme Court as the Motto?

We still believe it is the standard to STRIVE for, right?

If not, YOU ARE RIGHT -- we should quit promoting FRAUD and have it REMOVED!!

Just like removing Jesus, God and Crosses from public buildings
if these things are IMAGINARY FAITH BASED OR OTHERWISE NONEXISTENT.

BULLDOG do you want to be the first to write up
and promote a Petition to REMOVE "Equal Justice Under Law"
and ALL references to "Liberty and Justice for All" if
these ideals are nonexistent?

Do you agree to argue to stop
perpetuating FRAUD by false claims
and misrepresentations of things our
Govt and laws PROMISE but can NEVER deliver.

If, as you argue, Justice for all is nonexistent?

Wow, You didn't even sneak up on it. You just jumped right into the deep end of absurdity right off the bat, didn't you? I never said that wasn't something to strive for, only that it doesn't exist. Our Pledge of Allegiance also says we are One Nation, indivisible. You can tell by reading posts of crazy right wingers here who are having wet dreams at the thought of an armed civil war that we are very much divisible. I assume that you are smart enough to know your absurd remark is bullshit, but I'm a bit offended to see you think I'm not. I will continue to argue for things like justice for all, while knowing that does not exist to the extent that it should,, and probably never will.

Emily is not absurd-----just a flaming idealist. Jesus in Aramaic
would have borne the diminutive YESHUA which is the sorta
equivalent of YEHOSHUA (Hebrew) It was a very commonly used
name at that time

 

[BULLDOG]

I never understood why God, who supposedly has a perfect plan for everybody would change that plan, and screw all that up just because somebody asked him to.

BULLDOG it's more like whatever is the supreme plan or will for humanity
is already designed to happen, because the human conscience is designed
to seek peace, love, truth and justice and to avoid problems of fear, stress, abuse,
and conflict. So the perfect solutions will eventually prevail over problems and their causes.

In the meantime, while human will and reason isn't perfect, we struggle to RECONCILE
with whatever is the perfect unifying and universal solution that will end and prevent all strife.

So the purpose of praying for forgiveness, redemption and grace/salvation in "Christ Jesus"
is to receive Restorative Justice that will govern the process of corrections and restoration
of justice and peace for all.

In your earlier post you argue these things have never existed.
Maybe not YET on the earthly level where our society operates.

but on a SPIRITUAL level, many people have already FOUND connection
with the universal "peace and justice" that exists on HIGHER COLLECTIVE
levels transcending time, space and the history we have seen so far.

That "peace of mind" and "sense of justice" comes from the FUTURE,
and is nothing we have seen in the past, except in specific cases or
glimpses where people have acted out of Justice with Mercy and
established Peaceful Just relations with each other or within small groups or projects.

Collectively, all these relations, institutions and groups working for
UNIVERSAL peace and justice would all have to connect in perfect unity.

That hasn't happened GLOBALLY in the real world,
but people over the centuries and continents have already
CONNECTED on that level of "perfect peace and justice"
on a SPIRITUAL Collective level.

Again the point of AGREEING to unite by Conscience or by Christ
and RECEIVE this universal Spirit and commitment to
Restorative Justice, Justice with Mercy, Peace and Justice for all,
is what ALLOWS the COLLECTIVE spirit of Universal Justice
to become embodied in each person, in our relations, and
in our institutions, nations and society.

It is an ongoing cumulative process of building up to
"equal justice" in ALL our relations, starting with ourselves
and the people closest to us, then extending outward from there.

When everyone agrees to receive each other in this spirit BULLDOG
then collectively the whole world, all of humanity receives PEACE
and this is what it means for SALVATION to come through Christ Jesus.

We all agree and commit to live by the spirit of Restorative Justice.
So that's where we AGREE to enforce and follow Equal Justice for All.

The spirit comes THROUGH us when we agree to forgive
past injustices, wrongs and divisive conflicts and wars,
and receive understanding where we can establish
agreement in the spirit of Truth, Justice and Peace universally.

This process HAS been going on, and growing continuously
over the past 2000 years, BULLDOG but we cannot even
see it working until we forgive the pains of the past so we
can see into the future and what this process is leading to.

Such a wide ranging post ------- So little interest in getting in a discussion about all of that with you. Trim it down to about a dozen subjects, and we can talk. You talk of transcending time and space. Sounds like you have been watching too much Star Trek..

 

[ding]

I guess you can look at the subject from any position they all have some truth in them Me I don't have a clue just what the books and people have told me. Why should I believe them they have not information more than I have. Its all dust in the wind. When you die you might have more info, just let me know what the truth is.

I'm not saying there is no God. I guess it is a possibility. I just haven't seen much reason to believe there is, and an all powerful being would have to be an asshole to hide proof of his existence, and then punish everybody who wasn't aware of him.

The evidence for God is all around you.

What evidence?

Just as important, what gods is there evidence for?

The creation of space and time, physical laws, biological laws and moral laws.

Those things exist. They are not proof that a god exists.

How would you know? You’ve never given it any serious consideration.

 

[emilynghiem]

I never understood why God, who supposedly has a perfect plan for everybody would change that plan, and screw all that up just because somebody asked him to.

BULLDOG it's more like whatever is the supreme plan or will for humanity
is already designed to happen, because the human conscience is designed
to seek peace, love, truth and justice and to avoid problems of fear, stress, abuse,
and conflict. So the perfect solutions will eventually prevail over problems and their causes.

In the meantime, while human will and reason isn't perfect, we struggle to RECONCILE
with whatever is the perfect unifying and universal solution that will end and prevent all strife.

So the purpose of praying for forgiveness, redemption and grace/salvation in "Christ Jesus"
is to receive Restorative Justice that will govern the process of corrections and restoration
of justice and peace for all.

In your earlier post you argue these things have never existed.
Maybe not YET on the earthly level where our society operates.

but on a SPIRITUAL level, many people have already FOUND connection
with the universal "peace and justice" that exists on HIGHER COLLECTIVE
levels transcending time, space and the history we have seen so far.

That "peace of mind" and "sense of justice" comes from the FUTURE,
and is nothing we have seen in the past, except in specific cases or
glimpses where people have acted out of Justice with Mercy and
established Peaceful Just relations with each other or within small groups or projects.

Collectively, all these relations, institutions and groups working for
UNIVERSAL peace and justice would all have to connect in perfect unity.

That hasn't happened GLOBALLY in the real world,
but people over the centuries and continents have already
CONNECTED on that level of "perfect peace and justice"
on a SPIRITUAL Collective level.

Again the point of AGREEING to unite by Conscience or by Christ
and RECEIVE this universal Spirit and commitment to
Restorative Justice, Justice with Mercy, Peace and Justice for all,
is what ALLOWS the COLLECTIVE spirit of Universal Justice
to become embodied in each person, in our relations, and
in our institutions, nations and society.

It is an ongoing cumulative process of building up to
"equal justice" in ALL our relations, starting with ourselves
and the people closest to us, then extending outward from there.

When everyone agrees to receive each other in this spirit BULLDOG
then collectively the whole world, all of humanity receives PEACE
and this is what it means for SALVATION to come through Christ Jesus.

We all agree and commit to live by the spirit of Restorative Justice.
So that's where we AGREE to enforce and follow Equal Justice for All.

The spirit comes THROUGH us when we agree to forgive
past injustices, wrongs and divisive conflicts and wars,
and receive understanding where we can establish
agreement in the spirit of Truth, Justice and Peace universally.

This process HAS been going on, and growing continuously
over the past 2000 years, BULLDOG but we cannot even
see it working until we forgive the pains of the past so we
can see into the future and what this process is leading to.

Such a wide ranging post ------- So little interest in getting in a discussion about all of that with you. Trim it down to about a dozen subjects, and we can talk. You talk of transcending time and space. Sounds like you have been watching too much Star Trek..

Dear BULLDOG
No I don't mean like THAT.
I mean just having faith that the future
generations will achieve justice. That's
enough for ancestors and forefathers to seek justice in the past when they were a lot farther from that realization.

So even if this isn't established or proven to exist in the immediate presence, the fact people have FAITH in "equal justice" makes us take steps to overcome injustice and correct wrongs so we are CLOSER to that ideal.

What you say isn't existent in the present still exists as an ideal that has motivated human conscience from the beginning.

 

[emilynghiem]

Well Bezukhov
At least the Messiah's name wasn't on the spelling list.
To turn the whole contest into a debate whether his name
is REALLY spelled Yeshua, Yashua, Joshua, Jesus etc etc.

But seriously, the miracle of God and Jesus is being everywhere at once.
If we equate JESUS with JUSTICE, it's like saying there can be
Justice for All everywhere, in all people and relationships.

The spirit of Justice or Jesus watches over and guides all humanity.
The more we forgive one another, the more Perfect Justice we
can receive in relationships. And where we agree to receive
forgiveness and correction, then our relations are made new
through "Christ Jesus" or "Restorative Justice" for lasting peace.

Yet we all know there isn't justice for all. Cliches like that sound sweet, but we both know they are bullshit. This is where you say something about "free will". With your definition of fee will, justice will be denied to countless people, blowing your claim that it is universally possible into tiny pieces.

Sure BULLDOG
if you are SO SURE there is NO such thing as "Justice for All"
why STATE that in our national Pledge of Allegiance?

Why have "Equal Justice Under Law"
emblazoned on our Supreme Court as the Motto?

We still believe it is the standard to STRIVE for, right?

If not, YOU ARE RIGHT -- we should quit promoting FRAUD and have it REMOVED!!

Just like removing Jesus, God and Crosses from public buildings
if these things are IMAGINARY FAITH BASED OR OTHERWISE NONEXISTENT.

BULLDOG do you want to be the first to write up
and promote a Petition to REMOVE "Equal Justice Under Law"
and ALL references to "Liberty and Justice for All" if
these ideals are nonexistent?

Do you agree to argue to stop
perpetuating FRAUD by false claims
and misrepresentations of things our
Govt and laws PROMISE but can NEVER deliver.

If, as you argue, Justice for all is nonexistent?

Wow, You didn't even sneak up on it. You just jumped right into the deep end of absurdity right off the bat, didn't you? I never said that wasn't something to strive for, only that it doesn't exist. Our Pledge of Allegiance also says we are One Nation, indivisible. You can tell by reading posts of crazy right wingers here who are having wet dreams at the thought of an armed civil war that we are very much divisible. I assume that you are smart enough to know your absurd remark is bullshit, but I'm a bit offended to see you think I'm not. I will continue to argue for things like justice for all, while knowing that does not exist to the extent that it should,, and probably never will.

The Pledge of Allegiance
I pledge Allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.

Re:
I will continue to argue for things like justice for all, while knowing that does not exist to the extent that it should,, and probably never will.

BULLDOG this makes no sense if you were CERTAIN it is completely nonexistent and would never be possible.

Why would you even ask for it?

Clearly it means something in SPIRIT.
And we can work in that SPIRIT even if we aren't perfect in reality.

Thank you anyway BULLDOG
the fact you don't really think it is possible
but you still seek it anyway says everything.
That's the beauty of human nature and conscience.

Even if we are not consciously aware of how we can ever achieve this standard, we are still driven by conscience to seek justice, peace and truth.

Thanks for this BULLDOG
This is what it means to have faith in humanity,
to see that drive that exists even when justice is nowhere in sight. You have that beautiful drive in character built into you. So having faith that this "drive toward justice" exists, and we can still connect in this faith, that's what drives us forward. It doesn't even have to be perfect, and we will still work for it anyway.

 

[BULLDOG]

I'm not saying there is no God. I guess it is a possibility. I just haven't seen much reason to believe there is, and an all powerful being would have to be an asshole to hide proof of his existence, and then punish everybody who wasn't aware of him.

The evidence for God is all around you.

What evidence?

Just as important, what gods is there evidence for?

The creation of space and time, physical laws, biological laws and moral laws.

Those things exist. They are not proof that a god exists.

How would you know? You’ve never given it any serious consideration.

You assume a lot with no reason to do that.

 

[BULLDOG]

I never understood why God, who supposedly has a perfect plan for everybody would change that plan, and screw all that up just because somebody asked him to.

BULLDOG it's more like whatever is the supreme plan or will for humanity
is already designed to happen, because the human conscience is designed
to seek peace, love, truth and justice and to avoid problems of fear, stress, abuse,
and conflict. So the perfect solutions will eventually prevail over problems and their causes.

In the meantime, while human will and reason isn't perfect, we struggle to RECONCILE
with whatever is the perfect unifying and universal solution that will end and prevent all strife.

So the purpose of praying for forgiveness, redemption and grace/salvation in "Christ Jesus"
is to receive Restorative Justice that will govern the process of corrections and restoration
of justice and peace for all.

In your earlier post you argue these things have never existed.
Maybe not YET on the earthly level where our society operates.

but on a SPIRITUAL level, many people have already FOUND connection
with the universal "peace and justice" that exists on HIGHER COLLECTIVE
levels transcending time, space and the history we have seen so far.

That "peace of mind" and "sense of justice" comes from the FUTURE,
and is nothing we have seen in the past, except in specific cases or
glimpses where people have acted out of Justice with Mercy and
established Peaceful Just relations with each other or within small groups or projects.

Collectively, all these relations, institutions and groups working for
UNIVERSAL peace and justice would all have to connect in perfect unity.

That hasn't happened GLOBALLY in the real world,
but people over the centuries and continents have already
CONNECTED on that level of "perfect peace and justice"
on a SPIRITUAL Collective level.

Again the point of AGREEING to unite by Conscience or by Christ
and RECEIVE this universal Spirit and commitment to
Restorative Justice, Justice with Mercy, Peace and Justice for all,
is what ALLOWS the COLLECTIVE spirit of Universal Justice
to become embodied in each person, in our relations, and
in our institutions, nations and society.

It is an ongoing cumulative process of building up to
"equal justice" in ALL our relations, starting with ourselves
and the people closest to us, then extending outward from there.

When everyone agrees to receive each other in this spirit BULLDOG
then collectively the whole world, all of humanity receives PEACE
and this is what it means for SALVATION to come through Christ Jesus.

We all agree and commit to live by the spirit of Restorative Justice.
So that's where we AGREE to enforce and follow Equal Justice for All.

The spirit comes THROUGH us when we agree to forgive
past injustices, wrongs and divisive conflicts and wars,
and receive understanding where we can establish
agreement in the spirit of Truth, Justice and Peace universally.

This process HAS been going on, and growing continuously
over the past 2000 years, BULLDOG but we cannot even
see it working until we forgive the pains of the past so we
can see into the future and what this process is leading to.

Such a wide ranging post ------- So little interest in getting in a discussion about all of that with you. Trim it down to about a dozen subjects, and we can talk. You talk of transcending time and space. Sounds like you have been watching too much Star Trek..

Dear BULLDOG
No I don't mean like THAT.
I mean just having faith that the future
generations will achieve justice. That's
enough for ancestors and forefathers to seek justice in the past when they were a lot farther from that realization.

So even if this isn't established or proven to exist in the immediate presence, the fact people have FAITH in "equal justice" makes us take steps to overcome injustice and correct wrongs so we are CLOSER to that ideal.

What you say isn't existent in the present still exists as an ideal that has motivated human conscience from the beginning.

That is hope. Hope is a wonderful thing, but it's proof of nothing.but the person's mind set.

 

[BULLDOG]

Well Bezukhov
At least the Messiah's name wasn't on the spelling list.
To turn the whole contest into a debate whether his name
is REALLY spelled Yeshua, Yashua, Joshua, Jesus etc etc.

But seriously, the miracle of God and Jesus is being everywhere at once.
If we equate JESUS with JUSTICE, it's like saying there can be
Justice for All everywhere, in all people and relationships.

The spirit of Justice or Jesus watches over and guides all humanity.
The more we forgive one another, the more Perfect Justice we
can receive in relationships. And where we agree to receive
forgiveness and correction, then our relations are made new
through "Christ Jesus" or "Restorative Justice" for lasting peace.

Yet we all know there isn't justice for all. Cliches like that sound sweet, but we both know they are bullshit. This is where you say something about "free will". With your definition of fee will, justice will be denied to countless people, blowing your claim that it is universally possible into tiny pieces.

Sure BULLDOG
if you are SO SURE there is NO such thing as "Justice for All"
why STATE that in our national Pledge of Allegiance?

Why have "Equal Justice Under Law"
emblazoned on our Supreme Court as the Motto?

We still believe it is the standard to STRIVE for, right?

If not, YOU ARE RIGHT -- we should quit promoting FRAUD and have it REMOVED!!

Just like removing Jesus, God and Crosses from public buildings
if these things are IMAGINARY FAITH BASED OR OTHERWISE NONEXISTENT.

BULLDOG do you want to be the first to write up
and promote a Petition to REMOVE "Equal Justice Under Law"
and ALL references to "Liberty and Justice for All" if
these ideals are nonexistent?

Do you agree to argue to stop
perpetuating FRAUD by false claims
and misrepresentations of things our
Govt and laws PROMISE but can NEVER deliver.

If, as you argue, Justice for all is nonexistent?

Wow, You didn't even sneak up on it. You just jumped right into the deep end of absurdity right off the bat, didn't you? I never said that wasn't something to strive for, only that it doesn't exist. Our Pledge of Allegiance also says we are One Nation, indivisible. You can tell by reading posts of crazy right wingers here who are having wet dreams at the thought of an armed civil war that we are very much divisible. I assume that you are smart enough to know your absurd remark is bullshit, but I'm a bit offended to see you think I'm not. I will continue to argue for things like justice for all, while knowing that does not exist to the extent that it should,, and probably never will.

The Pledge of Allegiance
I pledge Allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.

Re:
I will continue to argue for things like justice for all, while knowing that does not exist to the extent that it should,, and probably never will.

BULLDOG this makes no sense if you were CERTAIN it is completely nonexistent and would never be possible.

Why would you even ask for it?

Clearly it means something in SPIRIT.
And we can work in that SPIRIT even if we aren't perfect in reality.

Thank you anyway BULLDOG
the fact you don't really think it is possible
but you still seek it anyway says everything.
That's the beauty of human nature and conscience.

Even if we are not consciously aware of how we can ever achieve this standard, we are still driven by conscience to seek justice, peace and truth.

Thanks for this BULLDOG
This is what it means to have faith in humanity,
to see that drive that exists even when justice is nowhere in sight. You have that beautiful drive in character built into you. So having faith that this "drive toward justice" exists, and we can still connect in this faith, that's what drives us forward. It doesn't even have to be perfect, and we will still work for it anyway.

I am not certain that universal justice will never happen any more than I am certain that there is no god. I just haven't seen any reason to believe either exists, or will exist in the future. I ain't gonna hold my breath for either

 

[emilynghiem]

The evidence for God is all around you.

What evidence?

Just as important, what gods is there evidence for?

The creation of space and time, physical laws, biological laws and moral laws.

Those things exist. They are not proof that a god exists.

How would you know? You’ve never given it any serious consideration.

You assume a lot with no reason to do that.

Dear ding
BULLDOG is right in that it can neither be
Proven NOR Disproven that either
God exists or God does not exist.
Both are faith based.

What we can establish is that we AGREE on certain PRINCIPLES that "God represents" or "Jesus represents"
So we can discuss those abstract concepts, even though these REMAIN FAITH BASED.

For example, I was discussin with BULLDOG how a
SENSE and DRIVE Toward JUSTICE exists in people by conscience.
My point is that even though "JUSTICE" remains FAITH BASED
and can neither be proven nor disproven to exist,
we can AGREE to seek that and can admit when we don't have it.

Completely faith based and unproven.
Yet we can agree on principles anyway, and whether we
are being fair to this "projected standard" or if we object to
wrongs, abuses or inconsistencies that are off the mark.