Zone1 If God Is All Powerful, All Knowing, and All Loving, Then Why Didn't He Create Us To Be Perfect Like Himself

[LibertyKid]

I think it is possible for God to know what all mankind will do with their free will choices.

I think it is possible for God to know what all mankind CAN do with their free will choices.
It's easy to read into passages that God is omniscient, seeing into the future before it happens, when you already believe that God is omniscient.

The theological ramifications however don't align with our capacity of free will. Nor does it align with a god who isn't culpable for our actions if he knows the future, has set that future in stone, making our decisions mute.

 

[Libby von H]

I think it is possible for God to know what all mankind CAN do with their free will choices.
It's easy to read into passages that God is omniscient, seeing into the future before it happens, when you already believe that God is omniscient.

The theological ramifications however don't align with our capacity of free will. Nor does it align with a god who isn't culpable for our actions if he knows the future, has set that future in stone, making our decisions mute.

Buthat is the double fallacy you always commit

1) fallacy that because something is free it could not be known
2) Free will is NOT random will. Even a non-omniscient being who knew a creature bound to follow what it perceives as good (whether perceiving rightly or wrongly ) would know what you would choose.

 

[Flash]

He gave us Free Will.

We were never going to be perfect with Free Will.

The first few chapters in the Book of Genesis discusses the consequences of Free Will.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

NO, because you misuse two words.
All modern tyrannies have been religious as laid out by Michael Burleigh

“THE ABUSIVE EXPLOITATION OF THE HUMAN RELIGIOUS SENTIMENT”: MICHAEL BURLEIGH AS HISTORIAN OF “POLITICAL RELIGION”​

One moment, please...

isi.org

AND

nobody belongs to 'religion' ,they belong to a certain religion. You can't say something must be false just because some have adhered without understanding. Is education an opiate? Can be. Is art an opiate? Can be.

The worst atrocity in modern history was the most cultued nation murdering the most literate ethnic group in history, the post-Weimar Germans killing Jews. You might say a la Burleigh :False relgion killing real religion.

“Cruelty lurks in our instincts, and fanaticism is a camouflage for cruelty. Fanatics are seldom genuinely humane, and those who sincerely dread cruelty will be slow to adopt a fanatical creed. . . .”
― Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: A New History

Nothing "Goes Bad" That Wasn't Bad From the Beginning

Ideologies, which are seductive mental traps created in the ruling class's universities, only repeat the tyranny of the ruling class's own religions, not distort it.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

He deliberately created them to choose perfection. They chose incorrectly.

Just Like the Constitution-Bangers' Slogan That Direct Democracy Is "Mob Rule"

Preaching an anti-human theory from those who have a pathetic need to feel superior to the rest of us.

 

[SaxonJackson]

Just Like the Constitution-Bangers' Slogan That Direct Democracy Is "Mob Rule"

Preaching an anti-human theory from those who have a pathetic need to feel superior to the rest of us.

^^ From a preacher who believes that his opinions are superior to all others. ^^ See how that works?

 

[onefour1]

Your god allegedly made everything so it also made our intelligence.

And I see no evidence that god is love.

This god you speak orders his creations under threat of punishment to love him. Jesus said that to love him is to obey his commands

That is equating servitude under threat of divine retribution to love.

In my religion we do not believe in ex nihilo creation. Yes, some religions do believe that God created everything out of nothing but in my religion we believe that is a false doctrine. We believe that God creates from things that have already existed. We believe that intelligence and matter have always existed and from these things God has made world and living creatures and frankly all things that he has created. We don't believe intelligence or matter is created at all but is used to create other things. I think the following verse says this most clearly:

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In verse 3 it clarifies that all things were made by the Word and without him was not any thing made that was made. This verse tells us that the Word, who is Jesus Christ (see John 1:14), that Jesus made all things that were made. In other words, Jesus did not make anything that has always existed, but of things that were made, He made them.

When you say that you see no evidence that God is love, you first have to take the story of Jesus on faith and believe that He was who he said he was, ie the Son of God the Father in the flesh. You would have to have faith that he was the Messiah and that through him the salvation of all mankind occurs. If you can have faith in Christ and his teachings, you would understand that Jesus, who never sinned and was the very Son of God offered himself as a sacrifice for the sins of all the world. Jesus was able to be an acceptable sacrifice because he was the only one who ever lived on earth who never sinned and was a member of the godhead before the foundation of the world. The pain, suffering and death of Jesus was a complete and total unjust act upon him which God the Father would need to recompense. Jesus' recompense for the injustice upon him was to be allowed to forgive mankind of their sins if they would only repent. God the Father so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that all of mankind might be saved. Jesus so loved the world that he was willing to sacrifice himself by suffering the pain of all the sins of the world. No ordinary man could do this. But Jesus, being a God could bear the sins of all the world. I can't even fathom going through such pain and suffering which caused him to suffer both body and spirit and made him bleed from every pore of his body. Nobody even comes remotely close to suffering as much as Jesus has and he did it all because of his love for us.

The celestial kingdom, also known as the kingdom of heaven is a kingdom of laws. Only those who love and can abide by the laws of the kingdom will be allowed to live there. Otherwise, if sinners who are not repentant and willing to abide by the law of the kingdom were allowed to live there, then it wouldn't be heaven. It would be no different than living here upon the earth where we all commit sin and break laws. The commandments of God are the law of the celestial kingdom. It is a kingdom where everyone loves one another and will only do unto others as they would want done unto themselves.

The threat of punishment is that if you cannot learn to abide by a celestial law, then you cannot abide in the kingdom of heaven. You must them go to lower kingdoms where you are willing to abide by the laws of that kingdom. The lowest kingdom is outer darkness where those who become anti-Christs will abide. It is also know as the lake of fire and brimstone. Those who go there will have a bright recollection of the desire they had to go to the celestial kingdom before coming to the earth and realize that in they did not obtain the kingdom because of their desire to be Sons of Perdition. This regret will be as a lake of fire and brimstone in their minds. It really all decide based on one's personal free will choices of what kingdom's laws you are willing to obey. Those who love darkness rather than light will end up in outer darkness. All mankind has a free will choice of what manner of mankind they will be and by what laws they are willing to obey. If you love God and his commandments you will be willing to obey the laws of his kingdom. If not you will have to go to another kingdom where you are willing to abide by the laws of that kingdom. God has given us the free will to choose what law we are willing to obey and we choose the kingdom that we are willing to abide by the laws of that kingdom. God's punishment is simply putting you in the place that you are willing to abide the law.

 

[onefour1]

God declared that His creation (including Adam and Eve) were “very good.” He never declared that they were perfect. He gifted man with free will, or the ability to think and choose for himself. He didn't create a world of clones or robots, but rather a world with living, breathing, sentient beings who were created in his “image.” All things were created for “his good pleasure” and he seeks them who seek Him by choice … not be force.

A third of the angels rebelled against God and the vast majority of mankind of chosen to do the same. Only a small handful will experience His perfect Kingdom to come.

I think if it were possible that God could create an all knowing, all wise and understanding being that has free will and chooses just as God chooses to always choose the right, that they would not be robots. Clones maybe but not robots since they would have free will to choose what they wish but because of their creation as perfect beings they would make perfect choices of their own free will and yes they would be clones because they are perfect in their knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, just as God is and would make the same choices of their own free will. Whether you make something perfect or imperfect, if they have free will, they would not be robots.

 

[onefour1]

So he deliberately made them imperfect. Then orders them to be perfect under threat of death and destruction.

That's sadism.

and you god is actually the originator of the thought crime

If our intelligence is self-existing and exists outside of God's creation, and that is the only way God can create mankind by combining these intelligences with self-existing spirit matter, then if he can't create intelligence and matter, then he can't create it to be perfect. then it is what it is. For them to reach perfection, they would need to choose to abide by laws of perfection.

 

[E. Pluribus]

God must be a sadist if you look at the overall human condition. Let them suffer and scramble and then die.

 

[onefour1]

He deliberately created them to choose perfection. They chose incorrectly.

I agree! Free choice is the freedom to choose a perfect choice or a imperfect choice.

 

[onefour1]

If they had to choose to be perfect then they were already imperfect and no one can actually be perfect

I believe you can change from being imperfect to being perfect. You simply have to learn what perfection is and repent of your imperfections. If you have the ability to choose perfection, that implies that you can change and choose to do what is right. Thankfully we can be forgiven of our imperfections.

 

[onefour1]

If we do not make perfect choices we are not perfect.

So if a god is responsible for making us then he deliberately made us to be imperfect.

Only beings who are already perfect can make perfect choices. This brings up all kinds of questions as to the god of the bible's perfection because some of its choices were pretty bad.

If its possible to change from making imperfect choices to perfect choices then through the process of repentance and forgiveness, one can gradually become better and better until the perfect day.

If the only way man is able to exist is through a creation of self-existing intelligence and self-existing matter, then God could not make mankind any more perfect than what he self exists as. If the self-existing intelligence has the capacity to make changes to his choices and the capacity to learn and apply perfect choices, he then has the ability to grow and become perfect. God commands us to be perfect.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I have personally experienced the ability to change my mind and make better choices. If there is a God and He is able to communicate perfect choices to us and also if we are capable of learning and applying those choices, I see no reason why we could not become perfect over time as long as we can repent of and forsake our sins.

I fully disagree that only perfect beings can make perfect choices. A person can make a perfect choice and also make imperfect choices given the free will and capacity to do so. If God who is perfect commands us to do something and if we are capable of doing it, then we do have the capacity to do or make perfect choices. All we need is the desire and faith to comply. God teaches us to repent and it is possible to do so. Perfection is a choice. If we truly have free will to choose, we should be able to make perfect choices.

 

[onefour1]

God must be a sadist if you look at the overall human condition. Let them suffer and scramble and then die.

Then let them be resurrect to live forever and never die and give them a chance to choose what eternal laws they are willing to obey. Hmmm, not so sadistic after all.

 

[onefour1]

I think it is possible for God to know what all mankind CAN do with their free will choices.
It's easy to read into passages that God is omniscient, seeing into the future before it happens, when you already believe that God is omniscient.

The theological ramifications however don't align with our capacity of free will. Nor does it align with a god who isn't culpable for our actions if he knows the future, has set that future in stone, making our decisions mute.

So it is your believe that if God somehow can know what we will choose with our free will that that is somehow making our decisions mute and making God responsible for our choices? I sit on my couch and know that if I put a piece of meat in front of my dog's nose that he will eat it. Am I culpable for his decision to eat it? Did I somehow force him to eat it? I simply knew what choice my dog would make. God is not culpable for the free will choices we make even if he knows that we will make them. We are on this earth to learn good and evil and God knew we would make mistakes and choose evil over good. But he had compassion on us and made a way for us to choose to overcome evil and repent and receive forgiveness. We are allowed to grow and overcome our evil ways. We are given free will because that is the only way one can become a good being in and of himself. You can't force a person to truly be a good being. Our time on this earth is a chance for us to learn good and evil and to learn to love goodness over evil. It is a chance to choose to be good of our own free will and choice. God is a free will agent. He is not forced to be good but chooses good eternally of his own free will and choice. Knowing good from evil and always choosing good over evil is how we become more God like. But free will is giving the individual the full right to choose in and of himself. Otherwise he would be a puppet or robot. But free also has its consequences. With free will comes free choice and the individual must be held accountable for his own choices, not God. God is not culpable for our free will choices. He has given us all the opportunity to become what we are willing to become and has provided a way for us to change from being evil to good through repentance and His infinite and eternal sacrifice of love and grace. If God were culpable, it would be wrong for him to create us and give us free will and the potential to grow and become more like him. If you were God, what would do that God does not do and what would you not do that God does?

 

[Blues Man]

In my religion we do not believe in ex nihilo creation. Yes, some religions do believe that God created everything out of nothing but in my religion we believe that is a false doctrine. We believe that God creates from things that have already existed. We believe that intelligence and matter have always existed and from these things God has made world and living creatures and frankly all things that he has created. We don't believe intelligence or matter is created at all but is used to create other things. I think the following verse says this most clearly:

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In verse 3 it clarifies that all things were made by the Word and without him was not any thing made that was made. This verse tells us that the Word, who is Jesus Christ (see John 1:14), that Jesus made all things that were made. In other words, Jesus did not make anything that has always existed, but of things that were made, He made them.

When you say that you see no evidence that God is love, you first have to take the story of Jesus on faith and believe that He was who he said he was, ie the Son of God the Father in the flesh. You would have to have faith that he was the Messiah and that through him the salvation of all mankind occurs. If you can have faith in Christ and his teachings, you would understand that Jesus, who never sinned and was the very Son of God offered himself as a sacrifice for the sins of all the world. Jesus was able to be an acceptable sacrifice because he was the only one who ever lived on earth who never sinned and was a member of the godhead before the foundation of the world. The pain, suffering and death of Jesus was a complete and total unjust act upon him which God the Father would need to recompense. Jesus' recompense for the injustice upon him was to be allowed to forgive mankind of their sins if they would only repent. God the Father so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that all of mankind might be saved. Jesus so loved the world that he was willing to sacrifice himself by suffering the pain of all the sins of the world. No ordinary man could do this. But Jesus, being a God could bear the sins of all the world. I can't even fathom going through such pain and suffering which caused him to suffer both body and spirit and made him bleed from every pore of his body. Nobody even comes remotely close to suffering as much as Jesus has and he did it all because of his love for us.

The celestial kingdom, also known as the kingdom of heaven is a kingdom of laws. Only those who love and can abide by the laws of the kingdom will be allowed to live there. Otherwise, if sinners who are not repentant and willing to abide by the law of the kingdom were allowed to live there, then it wouldn't be heaven. It would be no different than living here upon the earth where we all commit sin and break laws. The commandments of God are the law of the celestial kingdom. It is a kingdom where everyone loves one another and will only do unto others as they would want done unto themselves.

The threat of punishment is that if you cannot learn to abide by a celestial law, then you cannot abide in the kingdom of heaven. You must them go to lower kingdoms where you are willing to abide by the laws of that kingdom. The lowest kingdom is outer darkness where those who become anti-Christs will abide. It is also know as the lake of fire and brimstone. Those who go there will have a bright recollection of the desire they had to go to the celestial kingdom before coming to the earth and realize that in they did not obtain the kingdom because of their desire to be Sons of Perdition. This regret will be as a lake of fire and brimstone in their minds. It really all decide based on one's personal free will choices of what kingdom's laws you are willing to obey. Those who love darkness rather than light will end up in outer darkness. All mankind has a free will choice of what manner of mankind they will be and by what laws they are willing to obey. If you love God and his commandments you will be willing to obey the laws of his kingdom. If not you will have to go to another kingdom where you are willing to abide by the laws of that kingdom. God has given us the free will to choose what law we are willing to obey and we choose the kingdom that we are willing to abide by the laws of that kingdom. God's punishment is simply putting you in the place that you are willing to abide the law.

So you use a different bible than other Christians?

 

[Blues Man]

If its possible to change from making imperfect choices to perfect choices then through the process of repentance and forgiveness, one can gradually become better and better until the perfect day.

If the only way man is able to exist is through a creation of self-existing intelligence and self-existing matter, then God could not make mankind any more perfect than what he self exists as. If the self-existing intelligence has the capacity to make changes to his choices and the capacity to learn and apply perfect choices, he then has the ability to grow and become perfect. God commands us to be perfect.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I have personally experienced the ability to change my mind and make better choices. If there is a God and He is able to communicate perfect choices to us and also if we are capable of learning and applying those choices, I see no reason why we could not become perfect over time as long as we can repent of and forsake our sins.

I fully disagree that only perfect beings can make perfect choices. A person can make a perfect choice and also make imperfect choices given the free will and capacity to do so. If God who is perfect commands us to do something and if we are capable of doing it, then we do have the capacity to do or make perfect choices. All we need is the desire and faith to comply. God teaches us to repent and it is possible to do so. Perfection is a choice. If we truly have free will to choose, we should be able to make perfect choices.

When your very thoughts can be sins you have no chance of reaching the bar of perfection your god has set for you.

 

[Blues Man]

I believe you can change from being imperfect to being perfect. You simply have to learn what perfection is and repent of your imperfections. If you have the ability to choose perfection, that implies that you can change and choose to do what is right. Thankfully we can be forgiven of our imperfections.

Good luck with that.

We have seen that the quest for perfection is a losing game and the cause of untold numbers of mental health issues.

And the idea of "right" and "wrong" is subjective anyway. And why should we have to be forgiven for being imperfect when we were intentionally made that way by a god?

You are seeking forgiveness for something that isn;t your fault.

 

[ninja007]

Render Therefore Unto Caesar

The colonizing strategy of the Roman Empire was revealed through Jesus, who was their agent assigned to divert the Jews from fighting for their independence by being wholly concerned with preparing for Heaven in the afterlife. The "turn the other cheek" preaching was cowardice and treason.


Jesus failed in his assignment and also angered the other collaborators, the High Priests. So Pilate appeased them and got rid of his failed agent at the same time.

you finished reading there I guess- Jesus is very alive and well- His plan is not finished and will be perfect. eternity is a long time to be wrong. Get right with Jesus now while you still have breath.

 

[Libby von H]

Nothing "Goes Bad" That Wasn't Bad From the Beginning

Ideologies, which are seductive mental traps created in the ruling class's universities, only repeat the tyranny of the ruling class's own religions, not distort it.

THen you are saying the world was created evil. And we part right there