Zone1 I need to clarify my views on the Novus Ordo sect v the Sedevacantist (both claim to be Catholic)

[notmyfault2020]

I wouldn't suggest that you are virtually alone, but I'm at least asking you if there's an appreciable size element in the flock that feels the same way?

I can only guess that there would have to be some unrest with those who can't accept the practice of hiding pedophiles, as one example of just one of the pope's errant behaviours.

well, first of all, it is wrong (and very liberal, it seems) to focus on how many people believe something before considering it may be valid truth...

So there's our first "little" problem...

 

[Donald H]

The members of the Church are the Body of Christ. As long as we exist, the Church exists. Any organization - by necessity - requires a hierarchy. The hierarchy of the organization - while some may see it as the face of the organization - is never and will never be the organization. The reality of it is the leadership or hierarchy of any organization exists to serve the members. In effect, they are supposed to be servants. The same can and should be said for government or any other voluntary organization.

The point is, the body of the church could be about to choose two different paths, as has happened before. Nothing can be gained by arguing for one of the paths, against the other.

Is the side that you oppose of any significance or is the deviant behaviour of Catholic priests still being supported?

That's really the question the OP is putting to us, in that the problem is supported by various popes.

 

[ding]

huh?

don't get it

The reason to go to mass is communion. You can do everything else they do outside of mass. But you can't do that. Whether you realize it or not your attacks on the Church bring everything into question. It's akin to Protestants attacking the Church, it brings all of Christianity into question.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Like in the 1300s! When the supposed Pope was in Avignon. (And there were a couple others in other places.) I am fascinated by how the Catholic Church persists in certain issues for CENTURIES, such as whether the church alone was responsible for dealing with churchmen who turned criminal. That was the issue with the Murder in the Cathedral in 1172 (Thomas a Becket) and may have finally been settled recently in the 2020s with the determination around the world that criminal church pedophiles should be reported and tried by civil authorities.

In the days of the Inquisition, the clergy decided who was a heretic or criminal and the civil authorities executed punishment (or not).

Today... geez.. lawlessness rules. No one in D states holds people accountable. that's because the governors and other "rulers" don't want to be held accountable themselves. They know they can't pass that test...

 

[Donald H]

There's always been a "battle" between conservationism and liberalism within the Church. Always. Just like there has always been "battle" between conservationism and liberalism outside of the Church. Always. And there always will be a "battle" between conservationism and liberalism. It's healthy. It's natural.

But to answer your question people like the OP are a small minority of the conservatives in the Church. I'm as conservative as they come but they do not represent me. I'm so conservative I won't tolerate other conservatives making conservatives look bad.

Thank you for your attempt to answer the questions that need to be answered.

I'll register your opinion with some caution, on account of it being a personal attack against the OP. Not to suggest that would disqualify your opinion completely.

 

[notmyfault2020]

The reason to go to mass is communion. You can do everything else they do outside of mass. But you can't do that. Whether you realize it or not your attacks on the Church bring everything into question. It's akin to Protestants attacking the Church, it brings all of Christianity into question.

Did you even read the OP?

Or do you just insist on attacking people... what? to release your personal frustrations... like when the spouse doesn't 'act right' and you "can't" take it out on that person so you go to the internet?

 

[ding]

Is the side that you oppose of any significance or is the deviant behaviour of Catholic priests still being supported?

Before you talk about deviant behavior in the Church. You really should read the John Jay report. Because until you do, you are speaking from a position of ignorance and I don't have the time to correct every one of your erroneous beliefs about that time period when you could just read the damn report and discover it for yourself. Then we could have an intelligent conversation where we aren't wasting each other's time. Does that sound reasonable to you?

 

[notmyfault2020]

Now i have to clarify my clarification (OP)

I did not mean to imply that if some theologian comes along, someone I trust, and that that person convinced me I was wrong on a few things, that I would ditch sedevacantism. No, I am never going to do that. The so called popes we've had since Pius XII are not real popes. Even non-Catholic Christians know that the "pope" Francis says heretical things.

I just meant that I could be dissuaded from a few lesser points...

 

[Circe]

You can do every other thing outside the mass that you can do in the mass except for devouring the flesh of Christ and drinking the blood of Christ.

And if you say you don't believe that, the human smoke rises at Smithfield.

Just as well they aren't so powerful now. Fewer attacks on children lately, too. I hope.

 

[ding]

The point is, the body of the church could be about to choose two different paths, as has happened before. Nothing can be gained by arguing for one of the paths, against the other.

They aren't two different paths per se. They are opposite sides of the same coin. There are no differences of opinions about problems (the coin). Differences are about the solutions (two sides of the coin) to the problems. The beauty of God's world is that we are free to pursue wrong things but since error can't stand eventually we discover the truth. Diversity of thought is critical to that process. It's OK to have different opinions. It's how one goes about discussing the different opinions that matters.

 

[Donald H]

Before you talk about deviant behavior in the Church. You really should read the John Jay report. Because until you do, you are speaking from a position of ignorance and I don't have the time to correct every one of your erroneous beliefs about that time period when you could just read the damn report and discover it for yourself. Then we could have an intelligent conversation where we aren't wasting each other's time. Does that sound reasonable to you?

I haven't the time to read reports that may or may not deal with the perversions of many Catholic priests and the Pope's response (or lack of) to those incidents of pedophilia.

If you can recommend some reading that can somehow justify it or excuse it, I would at least give it a chance.

 

[notmyfault2020]

That's really the question the OP is putting to us, in that the problem is supported by various popes.

I don't get this... I only in passing brought up the pedophilia problem

explain, please

 

[ding]

That's really the question the OP is putting to us, in that the problem is supported by various popes.

I've already addressed this with this guy. And I doubt you would accept that answer because the answer goes against your bias. But here goes anyway... Dissenting opinions are allowed and encouraged in the Catholic Church. It's how it's done that matters. Pope's can be wrong about things. Their being wrong, doesn't invalidate them. It just means they are wrong about something. The OP doesn't get that because he's been evangelized by far right wing radicals within the Church. He's not going to accept anything unless they are the one's who tell him.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I haven't the time to read reports that may or may not deal with the perversions of many Catholic priests and the Pope's response (or lack of) to those incidents of pedophilia.

If you can recommend some reading that can somehow justify it or excuse it, I would at least give it a chance.

How about this information:

There was no huge pedo scandal in the Catholic Church (now known as Vatican sect) until Vatican II. I have been telling people until I'm blue in the face that the Vatican has been highjacked by liberals/Communists... etc.. There is no other explanation, to speak of, for all the pedo cases the "Church" has had (but the Church is no longer in the Vatican) since 1958, getting worse every year, I am sure..

 

[ding]

I haven't the time to read reports that may or may not deal with the perversions of many Catholic priests and the Pope's response (or lack of) to those incidents of pedophilia.

If you can recommend some reading that can somehow justify it or excuse it, I would at least give it a chance.

It entirely deals with it. That's its purpose.

 

[Donald H]

They aren't two different paths per se. They are opposite sides of the same coin. There are no differences of opinions about problems (the coin). Differences are about the solutions (two sides of the coin) to the problems. The beauty of God's world is that we are free to pursue wrong things but since error can't stand eventually we discover the truth. Diversity of thought is critical to that process. It's OK to have different opinions. It's how one goes about discussing the different opinions that matters.

I can perceive no beauty in a god's world unless the pedophilia is roundly condemned and actions are taken to rid the church of it completely.

Some of the Pope's have failed and the OP is bringing that back into daylight.

State your case for the church's chosen path of ignoring the evil. This isn't a discussion in which we can talk about a god's beauty.

The current Pope dealt with Canada's aboriginals first, then they were willing to talk of some beauty.

 

[ding]

key words: supposed to

neither govt or what appears to be the Church (but isn't... namely the Vatican) are serving anyone but themselves these days

Saying it doesn't make it true. Popes can be wrong. It doesn't make them invalid.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I've already addressed this with this guy. And I doubt you would accept that answer because the answer goes against your bias. But here goes anyway... Dissenting opinions are allowed and encouraged in the Catholic Church. It's how it's done that matters. Pope's can be wrong about things. Their being wrong, doesn't invalidate them. It just means they are wrong about something. The OP doesn't get that because he's been evangelized by far right wing radicals within the Church. He's not going to accept anything unless they are the one's who tell him.

There is no apostrophe in the plural word Popes

but anyhow, I am not talking about differences of opinion in, say, what interpretation of Scripture is acceptable or not, as important as that issue is. And what you say here about popes was true BEFORE 1958. It is no longer true because the popes since Roncalli are fake... they highjacked the Vatican from the Catholic Church, probably by killing Pius XII first although I do not claim to have irrefutable proof he was murdered. Some speculate he was, though.. people who study this thing in-depth. . people I trust. And let me tell you, that is one hell of a SHORT list (people I trust)

 

[Donald H]

How about this information:

There was no huge pedo scandal in the Catholic Church (now known as Vatican sect) until Vatican II. I have been telling people until I'm blue in the face that the Vatican has been highjacked by liberals/Communists... etc.. There is no other explanation, to speak of, for all the pedo cases the "Church" has had (but the Church is no longer in the Vatican) since 1958, getting worse every year, I am sure..

So your case is based on your belief that the church has been taken over by liberals and communists. At least we now know your position!

Is that an active and growing opinion that could lead to a split in the Catholic church?

 

[ding]

Thank you for your attempt to answer the questions that need to be answered.

I'll register your opinion with some caution, on account of it being a personal attack against the OP. Not to suggest that would disqualify your opinion completely.

You should talk to a mod. OP's are subject to questions of motive and bias. It comes with the territory.