How The Internet Is Destroying Mormonism

[Disir]

No. Actually, you're in denial. It doesn't continue to grow. And, frankly, it's documented.

it is documented. Every April the membership count comes out. Along with the growth stats for baptisms, wards, and stakes.

considering how careful the church is with funds, I highly doubt they are building more buildings and creating more congregations for less people.

How many of them are dead? How many of them are actually active?

I know how this works.

 

[Disir]

Let's do something easy. Tell them what it is that you have to do to have your name and your families name removed? Tell how many people actually know how to go about this. Most people run like hell and don't bother to take those steps.

 

[Disir]

I think we are at a time of challenge, but it isn't apocalyptic," he said.

The LDS church claims 14 million members worldwide -- optimistically including nearly every person baptized. But census data from some foreign countries targeted by clean-cut young missionaries show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent. In the U.S., only about half of Mormons are active members of the church, said Washington State University emeritus sociologist Armand Mauss, a leading researcher on Mormons.

Sociologists estimate there are as few as 5 million active members worldwide.
Special Report Mormonism besieged by the modern age Reuters

 

[JakeStarkey]

Another ignorant, biased anti-LDS thread with absolutely no basis in fact.

I can guarantee that the vast majority of LDS don't worry about ignorant videos or other trash about their religion.

And, there certainly appear to be a large number of non-LDS who feel the same.

Probably the reason such trash is thrust upon us.

Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Deal with it. He was a con man. Deal with it.

Pretending that it didn't happen and is not true is ignorant.

Yes, he was polygamist, and it is dealt with regularly in the Mormon and historical societies. Deal with it.

That he was a con man is your issue: deal with it.

Problem, Jake? Maybe you can explain that 11 million count. Tell me, Jake, is that entire group of 11 million alive? How about active? Do you know how that works?

No problem exists. You dislike JS and Mormonism. That is your right.

One, he was polygamist. Deal with it.

Two, the membership is closer to 13mm, I gather. So what?

You are simply rambling.

If this doesn't interest you then you can always participate in another thread. Yes?

Again. It's a lie and one you seem to roll around in. Deal with it.

So, where is the number from? Don't know? Feck off. You're another one that faced with the truth runs away.

Your nonsense ramblings are what interest me: deal with it.

What is a "lie": Mormonism? Prove it.

You are using words, disir, in a nonmeaningful way.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I think we are at a time of challenge, but it isn't apocalyptic," he said.

The LDS church claims 14 million members worldwide -- optimistically including nearly every person baptized. But census data from some foreign countries targeted by clean-cut young missionaries show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent. In the U.S., only about half of Mormons are active members of the church, said Washington State University emeritus sociologist Armand Mauss, a leading researcher on Mormons.

Sociologists estimate there are as few as 5 million active members worldwide.
Special Report Mormonism besieged by the modern age Reuters

Your comments are apropos of nothing.

 

[Disir]

I think we are at a time of challenge, but it isn't apocalyptic," he said.

The LDS church claims 14 million members worldwide -- optimistically including nearly every person baptized. But census data from some foreign countries targeted by clean-cut young missionaries show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent. In the U.S., only about half of Mormons are active members of the church, said Washington State University emeritus sociologist Armand Mauss, a leading researcher on Mormons.

Sociologists estimate there are as few as 5 million active members worldwide.
Special Report Mormonism besieged by the modern age Reuters

Your comments are apropos of nothing.

You just don't like it. Bring an argument or get bent.

 

[Disir]

Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Deal with it. He was a con man. Deal with it.

Pretending that it didn't happen and is not true is ignorant.

Yes, he was polygamist, and it is dealt with regularly in the Mormon and historical societies. Deal with it.

That he was a con man is your issue: deal with it.

Problem, Jake? Maybe you can explain that 11 million count. Tell me, Jake, is that entire group of 11 million alive? How about active? Do you know how that works?

No problem exists. You dislike JS and Mormonism. That is your right.

One, he was polygamist. Deal with it.

Two, the membership is closer to 13mm, I gather. So what?

You are simply rambling.

If this doesn't interest you then you can always participate in another thread. Yes?

Again. It's a lie and one you seem to roll around in. Deal with it.

So, where is the number from? Don't know? Feck off. You're another one that faced with the truth runs away.

Your nonsense ramblings are what interest me: deal with it.

What is a "lie": Mormonism? Prove it.

You are using words, disir, in a nonmeaningful way.

I am being pretty straight forward. It was built on lies, maintained by lies and something that you enjoy rolling around in.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You have been straightforward with your dislike of Mormonism, and offered nothing other than your discontent.

So what? That you don't like Mormonism. OK.

 

[Disir]

You have been straightforward with your dislike of Mormonism, and offered nothing other than your discontent.

So what? That you don't like Mormonism. OK.

It is a lie. There is no 11 million. There is no 14 million. There were no plates. There were no witnesses. He was a polygamist. He was a con man. Is that a problem for you? You haven't been able to provide an argument anywhere. So, do you have one?

No. You don't.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are blathering with your nonsense about church numbers.

Yes, JS was a polygamist. So what? Deal with it.

 

[Disir]

You are blathering with your nonsense about church numbers.

Yes, JS was a polygamist. So what? Deal with it.

So.........you got nothing. Again. Oh, no wait....you thought you had something with 14 million. But, you didn't have anything there either.

Get bent.

 

[Disir]

STATE OF NEW YORK v. JOSEPH SMITH

Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an imposter. Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826.
Prisoner examined: says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed in looking for mines, but the major part had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally look at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were at a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always declined having anything to do with this business.
Josiah Stowel sworn: says that prisoner had been at his house something like five months; had been employed by him to work on farm part of time; that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone; that prisoner had looked for him sometimes; once to tell him about money buried in Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt spring; and that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone; that he found the [word illegible] at Bend and Monument Hill as prisoner represented it; that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attleton for a mine, did not exactly find it but got a p- [word unfinished] of ore which resembled gold, he thinks; that prisoner had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner had said it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from the surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather; that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone; that he supposed the money moved down. That prisoner did offer his services; that he never deceived him; that prisoner looked through stone and described Josiah Stowel’s house and outhouses, while at Palmyra at Simpson Stowel’s, correctly; that he had told about a painted tree, with a man’s head painted upon it, by means of said stone. That he had been in company with prisoner digging for gold, and had the most implicit faith in prisoner’s skill.
Arad Stowel sworn: says that he went to see whether prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a book upon a white cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent, hold the stone to the candle, turn his head to look, and read. The deception appeared so palpable that witness went off disgusted.
McMaster sworn: says he went with Arad Stowel, and likewise came away disgusted. Prisoner pretended to him that he could discover objects at a distance by holding this white stone to the sun or candle; that prisoner rather declined looking into a hat at his dark colored stone, as he said that it hurt his eyes.
Jonathon Thompson: says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know where it was; and prisoner, Thompson and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, and told how the chest was situated. After digging several feet, struck something sounding like a board or plant. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried [which] came all fresh to his mind. That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hold beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner’s professed skill; that the board he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging; that notwithstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them. Says prisoner said that it appeared to him that salt might be found at Bainbridge, and that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone. That as evidence of the fact prisoner looked into his hat to tell him about some money witness lost sixteen years ago, and that he described the amn the witness supposed had taken it, and the disposition of the money: And therefore the Court find the Defendant guilty.
Mormon Quotes on Joseph Smith s trial of 1826

 

[Disir]

Affidavit of Isaac Hale, father-in-law of Joseph Smith, Jr., given at Harmony Township, Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania on 20 March 1834

Source: "Mormonism," Susquehanna Register, and Northern Pennsylvanian 9 (1 May 1834):1, Montrose, Pennsylvania, emphasis omitted. Paragraphs are shortened for easier reading.

I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure. His appearance at this time, was that of a careless young man - not very well educated, and very saucy and insolent to his father.

Smith, and his father, with several other 'money-diggers' boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the 'money-diggers' great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found - he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see. They then became discourged, and soon after dispersed. This took place about the 17th of November, 1825; and one of the company gave me his note for $12[.]68 for his board, which is still unpaid.

After these occurrences, young Smith made several visits at my house, and at length asked my consent to his marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused, and gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve; he then left the place. Not long after this, he returned, and while I was absent from home, carried off my daughter, into the state of New York, where they were married without my approbation or consent.

After they had arrived at Palmyra [Manchester] N.Y., Emma wrote to me inquiring whether she could have her property, consisting of clothing, furniture, cows, &c. I replied that her property was safe, and at her disposal. In short time they returned, bringing with them a Peter Ingersol[l], and subsequently came to the conclusion that they would move out, and resided upon a place near my residence.

Smith stated to me, that he had given up what he called "glass-looking," and that he expected to work hard for a living, and was willing to do so. He also made arrangements with my son Alva Hale, to go to Palmyra, and move his (Smith's) furniture &c. to this place. He then returned to Palmyra, and soon after, Alva, agreeable to the arrangement, went up and returned with Smith and his family.

Soon after this, I was informed they had brought a wonderful book of Plates down with them. I was shown a box in which it is said they were contained, which had, to all appearances, been used as a glass box of the common sized window-glass. I was allowed to feel the weight of the box, and they gave me to understand, that the book of plates was then in the box - into which, however, I was not allowed to look.

I inquired of Joseph Smith Jr., who was to be the first who would be allowed to see the Book of Plates? He said it was a young child. After this, I became dissatisfied, and informed him that if there was any thing in my house of that description, which I could not be allowed to see, he must take it away; if he did not, I was determined to see it. After that, the Plates were said to be hid in the woods.

About this time, Martin Harris made his appearance upon the stage; and Smith began to interpret the characters or hieroglyphics which he said were engraven upon the plates, while Harris wrote down the interpretation. It was said, that Harris wrote down one hundred and sixteen pages, and lost them.

Soon after this happened, Martin Harris informed me that he must have a greater witness, and said that he had talked with Joseph about it - Joseph informed him that he could not, or durst not show him the plates, but that he (Joseph) would go into the woods where the Book of Plates was, and that after he came back, Harris should follow his track in the snow, and find the Book, and examine it for himself. Harris informed me afterwards, that he followed Smith's directions, and could not find the Plates, and was still dissatisfied.

The next day after this happened, I went to the house where Joseph Smith Jr., lived, and where he and Harris were engaged in their translation of the Book. Each of them had a written piece of paper which they were comparing, and some of the words were "my servant seeketh a greater witness, but no greater witness can be given him." There was also something said about "three that were to see the thing" - meaning I supposed, the Book of Plates, and that "if the three did not go exactly according to orders, the thing would be taken from them." I enquired whose words they were, and was informed by Joseph or Emma, (I rather think it was the former) that they were the words of Jesus Christ. I told them then, that I considered the whole of it a delusion, and advised them to abandon it.

The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time in the woods!

After this, Martin Harris went away, and Oliver Cowd[e]ry came and wrote for Smith, while he interpreted as above described. This is the same Oliver Cowd[e]ry, whose name may be found in the Book of Mormon. Cowd[e]ry continued a scribe for Smith until the Book of Mormon was completed as I supposed, and understood.

Joseph Smith Jr. resided near me for some time after this, and I had a good opportunity of becoming acquainted with him, and somewhat acquainted with his associates, and I conscientiously believe from the facts I have detailed, and from many other circumstances, which I do not deem it necessary to relate, that the whole "Book of Mormon" (so called) is a silly fabrication of falsehood and wickedness, got up for speculation, and with a design to dupe the credulous and unwary - and in order that its fabricators might live upon the spoils of those who swallowed the deception.

ISAAC HALE.

Affirmed to and subscribed before me, March 20th, 1834.

CHARLES DIMON, J[ustice]. [of the] Peace.
MORMON ORIGINS - JOSEPH SMITH - EARLY LDS HISTORICALDOCUMENTS - MORMONISM

 

[JakeStarkey]

Disir continues to have nothing. Move along.

 

[Disir]

Abram W. Benton wrote:
For several years preceding the appearance of his book, he was about the country
in the character of a glass-looker: pretending, by means of a certain stone, or
glass, which he put in a hat,to be able to discover lost goods, hidden treasures,
mines of gold and silver, &c. . .
During the [1830] trial it was shown that the Book of Mormon was brought to light by the same magic power by which he pretended to tell fortunes, discover hidden treasures, &c.
Letter by A.W.B. [Abram W. Benton] to editor, March 1831, "Mormonites,"
Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate
2 (April9, 1831):120, Utica, New York

Joseph Addison Spencer Austin (1796-1872) of Colesville, New York 34 years old Time:1825-26
Addison Austin testifying during a summer 1830 trial of Joseph Smith and mentioned that Smith
told him he could not see with the stone. At a time when Smith was working for Josiah Stowell,Sr., he was asked if he could really see where some money was hidden, about 1825-26:
Addison Austin was next called upon, who testified, that at the very same time
that Stowell was digging for money, he, Austin, was in company with said Smith
alone, and asked him to tell him honestly whether he could see this money or not.
Smith hesitated some time, but finally replied, "to be candid, between you and
me, I cannot, any more than you or any body else; but any way to get a living."
Letter by A.W.B. [Abram W. Benton] to editor, March 1831, "Mormonites,"
Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate 2 (April 9, 1831):120, Utica, New York.
http://user.xmission.com/~research/central/jsseestone.pdf

 

[JakeStarkey]

blah, blah, blah, disir, when you offer something worthy of dispute, I will let you know. Note your hate site sources.

 

[Disir]

blah, blah, blah, disir, when you offer something worthy of dispute, I will let you know. Note your hate site sources.

Well, Jake, you little troll. Getting your ass kicked all over the place, ain't it? I'm just going to put your dumb ass on ignore and you can scream to your little hearts content.

 

[Disir]

The Kinderhook Plates:

In 1965, three years after Mr. Ricks made this triumphant announcement, George M. Lawrence, a Mormon physicist, was given permission to examine and make "some non-destructive physical studies of the surviving plate." In his "Report of a Physical Study of the Kinderhook Plate Number 5," George Lawrence wrote: "The dimensions, tolerances, composition and workmanship are consistent with the facilities of an 1843 blacksmith shop and with the fraud stories of the original participants." Since Mr. Lawrence was only allowed to make non-destructive tests, some Mormon scholars would not accept his work as conclusive. In 1980, however, the Mormon scholar Stanley P. Kimball was able "to secure permission from the Chicago Historical Society for the recommended destructive tests." Professor Kimball described the results of the tests in the official Mormon Church publication, The Ensign, August 1981, p. 66-70: "A recent electronic and chemical analysis of a metal plate... brought in 1843 to the Prophet Joseph Smith... appears to solve a previously unanswered question in Church history, helping to further evidence that the plate is what its producers later said it was — a nineteenth-century attempt to lure Joseph Smith into making a translation of ancient-looking characters that had been etched into the plates.... As a result of these tests, we concluded that the plate... is not of ancient origin.... we concluded that the plate was made from a true brass alloy (copper and zinc) typical of the mid-nineteenth century; whereas the 'brass' of ancient times was actually bronze, an alloy of copper and tin."
If Joseph Smith had not been murdered in June 1844, it is very possible he might have published a complete "translation" of these bogus plates. Just a month before his death, it was reported that he was "busy in translating them. The new work... will be nothing more nor less than a sequel to the Book of Mormon,..." (Warsaw Signal, May 22, 1844) The fact that Joseph Smith was actually preparing to print a translation of the plates is verified by a broadside published by the Mormon newspaper, The Nauvoo Neighbor, in June 1843. On this broadside, containing facsimiles of the plates, we find the following: "The contents of the Plates, together with a Fac-Simile of the same, will be published in the 'Times and Seasons,' as soon as the translation is completed."

In any case, it is obvious that Joseph Smith's work on these fraudulent plates casts serious doubt upon his credibility as a translator of Mormon scriptures like the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. Smith's translation of characters on the Kinderhook plates was supposed to have revealed that the plates "contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth." Now, in order to derive this much information from the plates it would have been necessary to have "translated" quite a number of the words. A man who could invent such information from bogus plates is just the type of man who would pretend to translate the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri which he really knew nothing about or the Book of Mormon from golden plates which he never made available to scholars. Charles A. Shook once observed: "Only a bogus prophet translates bogus plates." While this may not be the most tactful way of putting it, this is a very serious problem which cannot be brushed aside.

Issue 71 - Salt Lake City Messenger

 

[Disir]

THE MORMONS.
We last week gave some account of the dissensions and divisions which have sprung up in the holy city of Nauvoo -- growing out of the arbitrary conduct of "the Prophet." -- Since then, the breach has become still wider between the head of the church and his followers. The citizens have procured a press, and will soon commence a paper, for the purpose of exposing Smith on his own ground and among his own people. Last week, individuals of the Mormon faith, (Messrs. Blakesley and Higbee,) representing the dissenters, addressed a large number of our citizens, in reference to the "flare up," at Nauvoo. We were not present, but have it from others who were, that the dissenters, made out that Joe Smith was pretty much a rough customer, especially in relation to the "spiritual wife" doctrine. Their whole aim was principally against the church -- of which they still claimed to be members. They painted Smith, as any thing but the saint he claims to be -- and as a man, to the last degree, corrupt in his morals and religion. On Wednesday night, Mr. John P. Green, a Mormon elder, addressed a crowded house in defence of "the Prophet." The principal portion of the worthy elder's speech, while we were in the house, was taken up, in an apology for addressing the meeting, and when he did come to the substance of his address, he could only disprove the statements made by the dissenters, from his own knowledge -- he said he had been a Mormon for the last twelve years -- and had always been intimate with Smith, and that such doctrines as were ascribed to Smith by his enemies, had never been taught to him. He further said that Smith was like a diamond, the more he was rubbed, the brighter he appeared -- and he strongly insinuated, that the characters of the individuals, who had assailed Smith on the second evening previous, were none the best, &c.
We think these Mormon missionaries are laboring under a mistake in one particular. It is not so much the particular doctrines, which Smith upholds and practices, however abominable they may be in themselves, that our citizens care about -- as it is the anti-republican nature of the organization, over which he has almost supreme control -- and which is trained and disciplined to act in accordance with his selfish will. The spectacle presented in Smith's case of a civil, ecclesiastical and military leader, united in one and the same person, with power over life and liberty, can never find favor in the minds of sound and thinking Republicans. The day has gone by when the precepts of Divine Truth, could be propagated at the point of the sword -- or the Bible made the medium of corrupt men to gratify their lustful appetites and sordid desires --
[Quincy Whig.

Nauvoo Expositor, June 7, 1844, page 4
1844 Nauvoo Expositor newspaper pages 3-4

 

[Disir]