Zone1 Hebrews 1:8 says Jesus is God

[ding]

Stop whining. I am creating a new heaven and a new earth, new firmament upon which all people of good will whatever their race or religion or unbelief can find common ground upon which to live together in peace.

Aliens?

 

[The Irish Ram]

. In other words, God ultimately wants us to be one with him, not his avatar, so to speak

Just the opposite. It is all about the "avatar". < the only way to the Father. The one who died to pay our debt. Jesus, the Christ...

 

[Cougarbear]

Not that I like to get in between others when they are having a conversation but what part of Deutoronomy do you not understand where it says What thing what soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it… Did not the Book of Mormon come many years after the fact those words were written not just in Deutoronomy but in other places .. Whatpart of adding or subtracting do you not get… Is math not your strong suit even little Johnny got it right when his parents at whits end couldn’t get him to learn math and as a last recourse they sent him to catholic school where after the first day he studied and studied till he finally was rewarded with an A .. His parents were flabbergasted and they asked him why after going to so many schools and not learning math he was finally learning it…. His answer was when he walked into the school that first day and he saw a man nailed to the plus sign he knew they meant business and he knew he better learn quickly or that would be his fate as well….. Moral of the story some people are slow learners some never learn but with the proper motivation and incentive even the most obtuse can finally learn and grow as long as they realize there is no value in getting “ Nailed” to a plus sign to say the least…

I always laugh hysterically when Christians use the Deut. statement. They do it with the end of the Book of Revelation to. With them, I ask them, didn't God already say not to increase writings back in Moses day? So, that means all the rest of the books of the Prophets are false as well as the entire New Testament. Same is with Jews as well. What part of adding or subtracting do you not get? From Joshua through Malachi has to be discarded from your teachings. Don't try to wiggle out of this. You got caught with your own words. So, let me help you. As with the Book of Revelation, we are not to add or subtract from the books specifically. Not that another prophet can come along and line upon line, precept upon precept, give more light and knowledge to us. In fact, read Isiah and Ezekiel. There are two books mentioned that will come forth at a later date towards the last days. Isaiah Chapter 29, a Book that is Sealed. And, Ezekiel chapter 37, the Book of Joseph through Ephraim. I believe both are speaking about the same book, The Book of Mormon. An ancient text from prophets of the OT times and prophets in the New World of the Americas.

 

[Cougarbear]

IF you read the OT it should be the Tanakh version not the Roman version.
You wouldn't read a manual on flying a plane written by a boating instructor would you?

I'll read the version that I have and ask God what is true and not true. He will tell me. You get your answers from so-called scholars. It's fine to receive help to understand things by our earthly teachers But, since one has this interpretation and another has a difference interpretation, best to study and pray to God with real intent, faith not wavering and without a double mind to know which is true.

 

[irosie91]

I'll read the version that I have and ask God what is true and not true. He will tell me. You get your answers from so-called scholars. It's fine to receive help to understand things by our earthly teachers But, since one has this interpretation and another has a difference interpretation, best to study and pray to God with real intent, faith not wavering and without a double mind to know which is true.

"double mind"----sounds like a new term for Schizophrenia

 

[Paradoxical#1]

There were non-Christian historians which recorded that the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God.

• Josephus:
  Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentions Jesus in his writings, including a reference to the belief in his resurrection.
  
  
• Tacitus:
  The Roman historian Tacitus mentions a figure named "Christus," who was executed under Pontius Pilate. Tacitus also mentions that this figure was the founder of a movement that spread beyond Judea and even to Rome, which suggests that the resurrection of Christ, and his claimed divinity, was a key belief that spread among the followers of this movement.
  
  
• Pliny the Younger:
  Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan describing the practices of early Christians, including their belief in the resurrection of Christ.
  
  
• Other references:
  There are other references to Jesus and the early Christians in Roman and Jewish history. For example, the historian Thallus and the chronographer Phlegon are mentioned by Origen and Julius Africanus, respectively. While their writings are not fully preserved, they provide further evidence that the existence of Jesus and his followers was known to people other than Christians.

Cut and paste of the same garbage. Who cares about that crap?

 

[Cougarbear]

"double mind"----sounds like a new term for Schizophrenia

James 1:5-9, "5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A DOUBLE MINDED man is unstable in all his ways.

That's when you ask a question already knowing what answer you have. You don't care about the answer or the truth. Democrats are this way.

 

[BreezeWood]

It (his interpretation) acts as a bridge between jewish ethos and
christian ethos.

thanks for your input, breezie

- one that 91 will never cross ... nor the perversion as a religious state for their apartheid religion as a heavenly personification.

 

[Cougarbear]

- one that 91 will never cross ... nor the perversion as a religious state for their apartheid religion as a heavenly personification.

Apartheid religion. What is the matter with you?

 

[ding]

Cut and paste of the same garbage. Who cares about that crap?

Clearly not militant atheists such as yourself.

 

[BreezeWood]

Stop whining. I am creating a new heaven and a new earth, new firmament upon which all people of good will whatever their race or religion or unbelief can find common ground upon which to live together in peace.

that one already exists and is doing fine, few from the desert are found there - saving earth and its spiritual well being is surly the task at hand.

just a thought - using the desert religions could posibly not be more helpful than pouring gasoline on a fire to put it out ... history obviously has alluded you.

 

[BreezeWood]

Apartheid religion. What is the matter with you?

another gift from the desert -

you've never heard of judaism - claims of heavenly partiality ... in fact all three desert religions, catechisms. the freedom of islam. c-bear the tyrant fits the shoe quite well.

 

[HaShev]

I'll read the version that I have and ask God what is true and not true. He will tell me. You get your answers from so-called scholars. It's fine to receive help to understand things by our earthly teachers But, since one has this interpretation and another has a difference interpretation, best to study and pray to God with real intent, faith not wavering and without a double mind to know which is true.

-DAN 10:21

 

[Cougarbear]

another gift from the desert -

you've never heard of judaism - claims of heavenly partiality ... in fact all three desert religions, catechisms. the freedom of islam. c-bear the tyrant fits the shoe quite well.

Yes, it's because other people of the world rejected the God of Israel. Egypt rejected the God of Israel. The Canaanites rejected the God of Israel. It isn't because Israel separated themselves from the rest of the world that they were chosen by God. It's because Israel accepted God and therefore rewarded with the gospel of their time and His holy priesthood authority. Moses was taken in by the children of Ishmael when he was cast out of Egypt. So, there is no reason that Moses would reject anyone wanting to be adopted by Israel.

Again butthead, I'm a convert from Judaism. And, neither has Judaism rejected me nor God. Why you live with your head up the South African apartide butt is really strange. Even today, Israel has allowed Muslims to live in Israel and be a part of their government as well. It's not Israel who keeps Palestinians separated in Gaza from the land of Israel. It's the Palestinians themselves allowing terrorist organizations from the PLO to Hamas to keep them separate from the rest of Israel.

 

[Cougarbear]

-DAN 10:21

Part of the confusion arises from the fact that "prince" (sar) more often means captain, chief, general, governor, keeper, lord, master, ruler, steward. Another problem is that Dan. 8 and 9 does not speak of Michael so we should not presume that he is referred to. Specifically:

Daniel 8:11, No mention of Michael. The "Prince of the host" in this case is God, to whom the temple sacrifices were offered to.
Daniel 8:25, Same as above. The Prince of princes is God, who rules the entire earth.
Daniel 9:25, Still no mention of Michael, but this particular prince is indeed an anointed leader, possibly the Messiah, but possibly a normal anointed king such as one of the Hasmoneans who came to power after the Maccabean Revolt.
Daniel 10:21, "There is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your Prince." This is apparently another reference to Michael's role as the guardian angel of Israel.
Daniel 12:1, "At that time shall arise Michael, the great Prince who has charge of your people." Once again, Michael is the name of Israel's guardian angel, who protects them in this case against various kingdoms formerly ruled by Greece (according to the Maccabean Hypotheses of Daniel's origins, a reference to the aftermath of the rule of Alexander the Great).

Conclusion is clear: The question really is, "how can the Messiah and Michael both be our Prince?" The answer is that "prince" is only one way that the Hebrew word "sar" can be translated, and several of these passages do not refer to Michael in any case. Michael is Israel's guardian spirit, not the Messiah.

 

[HaShev]

Part of the confusion arises from the fact that "prince" (sar) more often means captain, chief, general, governor, keeper, lord, master, ruler, steward. Another problem is that Dan. 8 and 9 does not speak of Michael so we should not presume that he is referred to. Specifically:

Daniel 8:11, No mention of Michael. The "Prince of the host" in this case is God, to whom the temple sacrifices were offered to.
Daniel 8:25, Same as above. The Prince of princes is God, who rules the entire earth.
Daniel 9:25, Still no mention of Michael, but this particular prince is indeed an anointed leader, possibly the Messiah, but possibly a normal anointed king such as one of the Hasmoneans who came to power after the Maccabean Revolt.
Daniel 10:21, "There is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your Prince." This is apparently another reference to Michael's role as the guardian angel of Israel.
Daniel 12:1, "At that time shall arise Michael, the great Prince who has charge of your people." Once again, Michael is the name of Israel's guardian angel, who protects them in this case against various kingdoms formerly ruled by Greece (according to the Maccabean Hypotheses of Daniel's origins, a reference to the aftermath of the rule of Alexander the Great).

Conclusion is clear: The question really is, "how can the Messiah and Michael both be our Prince?" The answer is that "prince" is only one way that the Hebrew word "sar" can be translated, and several of these passages do not refer to Michael in any case. Michael is Israel's guardian spirit, not the Messiah.

Simple, your assertions on Dan 9 are based on being lied to and thus all wrong, not even close to historical accuracy.
1-The events Daniel is prophecizing already occured before Jesus and the events of the temple you propose occured after Jesus making the correlation impossible even if you avoided history and thought it didn’t occur yet.
2-the only historical christ in the 30ad era was Theudas, you need to rewrite the historical and combine figures to create a whole new character with new name and new birthdate= lie.

3-Dan 9
Let's review the Mistake:
The events Daniel is prophecizing already occured before Jesus and the events of the temple you propose occured after Jesus making the correlation impossible even if you avoided history and thought it didn’t occur yet.
Daniel is talking about "an anointed place" and an anointed (King) not THE ANOINTED ONE.
Now to review why these events already occured:

Dan 9: There is a 7-week (49-year) span between the actual destruction of Jerusalem in 586 (beginning the exile and realizing the decree in 538bc to rebuild), and the end of the exile brought about by the arrival of ‘AN’ anointed one not “THE” anointed one . Kings and High Priests were anointed as AN anointed one but not THE anointed one. Thus we must notice the wording is “an anointed one” not “THE” anointed one.

Dan 9:24 says anoint the holy place not an anointed man. Daniel 9:25 says, "from the time the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was issued, until AN annointed one, a ruler, it will be seven weeks". If the decree is indeed sometime around the beginning of the full Exile, 586 b.c.e., then who is the anointed one mentioned? And, GOD already has referred to ruler Cyrus as his Anointed in
Isaiah 45:1: 70 years after the destruction Cyrus rebuilt the Temple in other words it's completion in 516BC
Here's the reference of this ‘70 years’ by the Historian Josephus in Antiquities 11.1.1: Ant. 11.1.1 "In the first year of the reign of Cyrus, which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they has served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that SERVITUDE seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity; and these things God did afford them."


Daniel 9:26
And after the sixty-two weeks,an anointed one will be cut off,
and there will be nothing to him.
and the people of a ruler who shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary,
and the end of it/him shall be with a flood,,
and, until the end of the war, desolations are decreed.

62 weeks (434 years) leads us to around 152 b.c.e. the time of antiochus desolation and destruction of the temple. The anointed one was the king who was cut off. High Priest Onias III, who was assasinated (cut off) in 171 b.c.e. In 168 b.c.e., the middle of the next "week" of years (171-165 b.c.e.), ruler Antiochus IV (who had Onias killed) pillaged Jerusalem. Antiochus IV matches the "ruler to come",

Now who is the Moshiach?
Dan 12:1-4 says Michael rises to save Israel the same redeemer (HaSheva) who saves
Judah in Jeremiah 23:5-6

Dan CHAPTER TEN Verse 13: But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me one and twenty days: and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and remained there by the king of the Persians (Cyrus).

Michael is dealing with Cyrus thus who is Ezra1 & Isaiah 44-45 calling LORD AND "REDEEMER" (HaSheva)?

DAN 10 Verse 20: And the angel said: "Do you know where I came from? And now will
Hashev Lacham Sar Parac"(HaShev fight the prince of Persia).

Verse 21: But I will tell thee what is set down in the scripture of truth: and none is my helper in all these things, but Michael your prince.

1 Ezra 1:1 it was the Lord who stirred up the spirit of Cyrus.
Isaiah 44:24-28 and 45, the Redeemer caused Cyrus heart to change to do the Moshiach roles of delivering the people gathering them, rebuilding the temple etc.
Dan 10 shows this was Michael HaShev who worked on Cyrus' heart doing all the anointed roles, not Jesus.

Check Mate Rule Breaker!

 

[shimon]

I always laugh hysterically when Christians use the Deut. statement. They do it with the end of the Book of Revelation to. With them, I ask them, didn't God already say not to increase writings back in Moses day? So, that means all the rest of the books of the Prophets are false as well as the entire New Testament. Same is with Jews as well. What part of adding or subtracting do you not get? From Joshua through Malachi has to be discarded from your teachings. Don't try to wiggle out of this. You got caught with your own words. So, let me help you. As with the Book of Revelation, we are not to add or subtract from the books specifically. Not that another prophet can come along and line upon line, precept upon precept, give more light and knowledge to us. In fact, read Isiah and Ezekiel. There are two books mentioned that will come forth at a later date towards the last days. Isaiah Chapter 29, a Book that is Sealed. And, Ezekiel chapter 37, the Book of Joseph through Ephraim. I believe both are speaking about the same book, The Book of Mormon. An ancient text from prophets of the OT times and prophets in the New World of the Americas.

Not quite In Deuteronomy, "you should not add or subtract" refers to the commandment to strictly adhere to the G-d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob’s law and teachings without modification.This means that the Israelites should not add any new commandments or teachings to what he had already given them, nor should they take away from or ignore any of the existing laws. Christianity teaches in the New Testament to mostly ignore these rules because they have a free get out of jail card in their view of their idol Jesus…. To my knowledge the prophets almost without exception tried to get the people to follow these laws and commandments therefore your conjecture is without merit even if I would agree to this the commandment to adhere to these teachings still must be followed with no addition or subtraction….. Remember it is the G-d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob that will have the best and final laughter not you in your hysteria when he chooses his people not some “ Johnny” come lately or “ Smith” teaching a new way….There were always people that came along and misinterpreted a line here or a word there and gave it a different spin that is why there are so many different factions and groups… That is also why we need to have our own platform such as a rebuilt temple( not for sacrifices) but for teaching the correct paths and understandings that so many have deviated and fallen away from because there was no central authority to correct their errors…. That is why Mt Moriah means basically to teach and that that Mountain will be “ higher” up then all other Mountains not physically but in being the authority of what is the correct path and what is not the correct path… Laugh all you want but in time this will be so…

 

[BreezeWood]

Even today, Israel has allowed Muslims to live in Israel

you really need to learn ...

not to be a liar, did you include woman and children.

try something different the true beginning than the moses distortion of a&e being sinners for choosing self determination than servitude and denial, judaism to worship the proxy god their false commandments hereditary idolatry religion of apartheid et al - insisting heavenly personification for their blatant crimes lies and deliberate distortions.

 

[Cougarbear]

Simple, your assertions on Dan 9 are based on being lied to and thus all wrong, not even close to historical accuracy.
1-The events Daniel is prophecizing already occured before Jesus and the events of the temple you propose occured after Jesus making the correlation impossible even if you avoided history and thought it didn’t occur yet.
2-the only historical christ in the 30ad era was Theudas, you need to rewrite the historical and combine figures to create a whole new character with new name and new birthdate= lie.

3-Dan 9
Let's review the Mistake:
The events Daniel is prophecizing already occured before Jesus and the events of the temple you propose occured after Jesus making the correlation impossible even if you avoided history and thought it didn’t occur yet.
Daniel is talking about "an anointed place" and an anointed (King) not THE ANOINTED ONE.
Now to review why these events already occured:

Dan 9: There is a 7-week (49-year) span between the actual destruction of Jerusalem in 586 (beginning the exile and realizing the decree in 538bc to rebuild), and the end of the exile brought about by the arrival of ‘AN’ anointed one not “THE” anointed one . Kings and High Priests were anointed as AN anointed one but not THE anointed one. Thus we must notice the wording is “an anointed one” not “THE” anointed one.

Dan 9:24 says anoint the holy place not an anointed man. Daniel 9:25 says, "from the time the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was issued, until AN annointed one, a ruler, it will be seven weeks". If the decree is indeed sometime around the beginning of the full Exile, 586 b.c.e., then who is the anointed one mentioned? And, GOD already has referred to ruler Cyrus as his Anointed in
Isaiah 45:1: 70 years after the destruction Cyrus rebuilt the Temple in other words it's completion in 516BC
Here's the reference of this ‘70 years’ by the Historian Josephus in Antiquities 11.1.1: Ant. 11.1.1 "In the first year of the reign of Cyrus, which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they has served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that SERVITUDE seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity; and these things God did afford them."


Daniel 9:26
And after the sixty-two weeks,an anointed one will be cut off,
and there will be nothing to him.
and the people of a ruler who shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary,
and the end of it/him shall be with a flood,,
and, until the end of the war, desolations are decreed.

62 weeks (434 years) leads us to around 152 b.c.e. the time of antiochus desolation and destruction of the temple. The anointed one was the king who was cut off. High Priest Onias III, who was assasinated (cut off) in 171 b.c.e. In 168 b.c.e., the middle of the next "week" of years (171-165 b.c.e.), ruler Antiochus IV (who had Onias killed) pillaged Jerusalem. Antiochus IV matches the "ruler to come",

Now who is the Moshiach?
Dan 12:1-4 says Michael rises to save Israel the same redeemer (HaSheva) who saves
Judah in Jeremiah 23:5-6

Dan CHAPTER TEN Verse 13: But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me one and twenty days: and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and remained there by the king of the Persians (Cyrus).

Michael is dealing with Cyrus thus who is Ezra1 & Isaiah 44-45 calling LORD AND "REDEEMER" (HaSheva)?

DAN 10 Verse 20: And the angel said: "Do you know where I came from? And now will
Hashev Lacham Sar Parac"(HaShev fight the prince of Persia).

Verse 21: But I will tell thee what is set down in the scripture of truth: and none is my helper in all these things, but Michael your prince.

1 Ezra 1:1 it was the Lord who stirred up the spirit of Cyrus.
Isaiah 44:24-28 and 45, the Redeemer caused Cyrus heart to change to do the Moshiach roles of delivering the people gathering them, rebuilding the temple etc.
Dan 10 shows this was Michael HaShev who worked on Cyrus' heart doing all the anointed roles, not Jesus.

Check Mate Rule Breaker!

Typical event by someone who lost the debate. Write as much as can hoping it looks scholarly. Unfortunately, it doesn’t. The simple Occam’s Razor method of truth gives me the win. Michael is one of the great princes of angels while Jesus is the
Prince Messiah.

 

[BreezeWood]

refers to the commandment to strictly adhere to the G-d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob’s law and teachings without modification.

only a sickness of heart would believe such to be the case to worship anything those three sinners would claim as a heavenly presence for their benefit.

the same people who would kill a religious itinerant without any other means to prevent their truth from vacating their obviously self serving corrupt religion as then in the 1st century to the present day.