Guns are to blame--not people.

[JoeB131]

So, you were a REMF supply clerk. Probably the only time you touched a weapon was annual qualification, or an unloaded weapon on guard duty. BFD.

Well, actually, I was in charge of the arms vault, so it was my job to make sure that every one of those guns got back to where they belonged and they were all in good operating order. Oh, yes, and I was assigned to an infantry unit. Nice thing about 76Y. Every unit in the army needed them. Downside.. Limited promotion possibilities.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

That's a leper with the most fingers kind of accolade. First, you weren't talking about Illinois, you were talking about Chicago specifically. Nice moving the goalposts, Ray. Second, FLORIDA gets a C-. Fucking Florida, where you can shoot an unarmed kid buying candy and call it "self-defense"

So what state is Chicago in? If the state has the most restrictive laws than so do the cities within it. Commiefornia was rated number one and how many murders do we have in that state?

Gun laws don't work and never have because bad guys will always be able to get them.

Yet they had enough detectives to prove Jussie was a big fibber. It's amazing how much progress they can make solving cases when they actually WANT To solve a case.

That case was so amateur that the detectives laughed as they looked at evidence. Murders are different. Somebody gets killed by a bullet from a stolen gun, nobody seen a thing. The people suspected of actually seeing something won't talk with police. Even if they have a suspect in mind, then it's the chore of trying to find enough evidence for an arrest.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

No they should be only allowed to own a cupcake.

Are you suggesting a background check to buy a hammer, steak knife, baseball bat, axe, etc.?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Verbal and emotional abuse are nonphysical forms of domestic violence. While you may not feel you are being abused if you have no physical injuries, emotional abuse can be just as damaging to you mentally and psychologically as physical abuse. In many cases, emotional or verbal abuse can also lead to physical abuse. Verbal, emotional and psychological abuse are common precursors to physical violence in domestic abuse situations.

Can Verbal Abuse & Emotional Abuse Turn to Physical Abuse?

Are verbal altercations that lead to emotional distress a precursor of domestic abuse? Our Solana Beach family law attorneys examine.

www.ratzerfamilylaw.com

And your point is what exactly?

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

That's a leper with the most fingers kind of accolade. First, you weren't talking about Illinois, you were talking about Chicago specifically. Nice moving the goalposts, Ray. Second, FLORIDA gets a C-. Fucking Florida, where you can shoot an unarmed kid buying candy and call it "self-defense".


Yet they had enough detectives to prove Jussie was a big fibber. It's amazing how much progress they can make solving cases when they actually WANT To solve a case.



Wrong again. Most of the guns recovered from Crimes were bought from Gun Stores in Indiana. One store was the source of 850 recovered guns.

'Eye-popping numbers': Chicago sues Indiana gun store tied to 850 firearms recovered from crime scenes

The city of Chicago is suing an Indiana gun store it says is one of the main sources of illicit firearms for the criminal market.

www.usatoday.com

And this is the problem. Illinois actually has reasonably good laws to keep guns out of the wrong hands, while still allowing law abiding citizens to enjoy their pointless fetish. Yet Indiana has crappy laws, and the bad guys just drive over the border.

Sounds like the bad guys are the problem, not the guns.

 

[Rigby5]

Question 21i on the ATF form 4473 asks if the purchaser has ever been convicted of misdemeanor Domestic Violence. So Domestic Violence is already a disqualifying issue for ownership of a weapon.

Surrender of weapons is a common and routine condition for Bail prior to trials.

So what is the problem, exactly?

A misdemeanor domestic violence is not a felony, so it is illegal to use to deny purchase.
And they are not just using convictions, but mere charges.
Nor have I ever had to surrender any weapons as a condition for bail.
It is illegal to put someone in danger by taking their weapons without a conviction.
And even then I do not see it as having a legal basis.

 

[Rigby5]

92% of all women killed with guns in high-income countries in 2015 were from the US.

In 2015:
800-1000 women are killed with guns.
220 are killed with knives
300 are killed with other

Access to a gun makes it five times more likely that the abusive partner will kill his female victim.

4.5 million women have reported being threatened with a gun by an intimate partner.

Guns and Violence Against Women: America’s Uniquely Lethal Intimate Partner Violence Problem

Laws keeping guns out of the hands of abusers are associated with lower rates of violence against women and intimate partner homicides.

everytownresearch.org

If your daughter is in an abusive relationship, and there's a gun in the house, tell her to gtfo.

That is totally wrong.
Everyone in all countries have total access to guns if they want to.
In the Mideast, it is essentially a religious requirement to be armed, and yet there is less domestic violence with firearms.
The US has lots of violence because it is so materialistic, intense, expensive, stressful, unnatural, etc.
It is the same reason the US has the largest prison population % in the world.
Nothing to do with firearms, and you can easily get firearms in any country, just as you can get drugs.

 

[Rigby5]

So with me a record of misdemeanor domestic violence, you telling me I can go to a gun shop in Ohio and legally buy a gun?

When I bought a pistol at a pawn shop, I did not even have to fill out any BATF form.
Seems pawn shops are exempt since they only sell used firearms.

 

[SavannahMann]

A misdemeanor domestic violence is not a felony, so it is illegal to use to deny purchase.
And they are not just using convictions, but mere charges.
Nor have I ever had to surrender any weapons as a condition for bail.
It is illegal to put someone in danger by taking their weapons without a conviction.
And even then I do not see it as having a legal basis.

Ok. Let’s educate you my friend. The Lautenberg Amendment is law. And has been upheld by the lower courts so far. So yes. Domestic Violence. Even Misdemeanor level conviction strips the individual of their rights.

screaming that it’s not fair won’t change the facts.

Second. Conditions of bail. Bail conditions are not universal. They are managed on a case by case basis. And surrendering weapons is a common, but not required nor universal condition. It is extremely common for violent offenders. But it is not universal.

'Toxic combination' of drugs, firearms sends NC man charged in Capitol riot back to jail

James Tate Grant was arrested last month for suspected DUI and possession of an AR-15 while on pretrial release.

www.wusa9.com

Possession of a firearm is reason to revoke the bond if it was a condition of release.

 

[Rigby5]

Ok. Let’s educate you my friend. The Lautenberg Amendment is law. And has been upheld by the lower courts so far. So yes. Domestic Violence. Even Misdemeanor level conviction strips the individual of their rights.

screaming that it’s not fair won’t change the facts.

Second. Conditions of bail. Bail conditions are not universal. They are managed on a case by case basis. And surrendering weapons is a common, but not required nor universal condition. It is extremely common for violent offenders. But it is not universal.

'Toxic combination' of drugs, firearms sends NC man charged in Capitol riot back to jail

James Tate Grant was arrested last month for suspected DUI and possession of an AR-15 while on pretrial release.

www.wusa9.com

Possession of a firearm is reason to revoke the bond if it was a condition of release.

Oh I do not doubt things have changed.
But law is supposed to be based on principles that do not change.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Ok. Let’s educate you my friend. The Lautenberg Amendment is law. And has been upheld by the lower courts so far. So yes. Domestic Violence. Even Misdemeanor level conviction strips the individual of their rights.

Then what is the point of having any constitutional rights at all if they can be taken away from people because they yelled at another person or made an empty threat of violence against them? If we are allowed to do that, then we can do the same for the right to peacefully assemble, freedom of speech, warrantless search and seizures by the government? And mind you we are at a time where the commies are trying to pass a bill forcing states to rescind their restrictions of ex-felons from voting.

 

[Batcat]

All we have to do is look to Europe to see where this is going with the left. Of course they're going to take the guns. They do it in every country that they can.

This nation is not in Europe. Even if liberals pass laws requiring all civilian owned firearms be turned in that doesn’t mean it will happen.

 

[Superbadbrutha]

And your point is what exactly?

Verbal domestic abusers usually turn into violent domestic abusers.

 

[JoeB131]

So what state is Chicago in? If the state has the most restrictive laws than so do the cities within it. Commiefornia was rated number one and how many murders do we have in that state?

Gun laws don't work and never have because bad guys will always be able to get them.

Gun laws don't work because we don't have a consistent national gun law with enforcement.

California has the strongest gun laws, and they come in 44th in Gun deaths.
Illinois has 8th in gun laws, and they come in 35th in gun deaths.


MEANWHILE-
Mississippi is 50th in gun laws, and they come in SECOND in gun deaths. (The first is Alaska, but that might be an anomaly because it is sparsely populated.)
Louisiana is 33rd in gun laws, and comes in sixth in gun deaths.
Your state comes in 25th in laws, and 22nd in gun deaths.

That case was so amateur that the detectives laughed as they looked at evidence. Murders are different. Somebody gets killed by a bullet from a stolen gun, nobody seen a thing. The people suspected of actually seeing something won't talk with police. Even if they have a suspect in mind, then it's the chore of trying to find enough evidence for an arrest.

Ray always has an excuse. So you mean the police would actually have to do WORK for those high salaries? OH MY GOD, what a concept. I thought this job was just driving around, hassling black drivers and eating fucking donuts. You mean they are supposed to conduct INVESTIGATIONS? Who knew?

They don't investigate murders because they don't care. When that female police officer was shot last year, they turned over every rock until they caught her killers. If it's some black person, meh, just phone it in, it's not like you are going to get fired or anything. those donuts aren't going to eat themselves.

 

[JoeB131]

In the Mideast, it is essentially a religious requirement to be armed, and yet there is less domestic violence with firearms.

Um, yeah, given every middle east country has been overthrown at least once in my lifetime, I'm not sure that's something we want to emulate.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Gun laws don't work because we don't have a consistent national gun law with enforcement.

California has the strongest gun laws, and they come in 44th in Gun deaths.
Illinois has 8th in gun laws, and they come in 35th in gun deaths.


MEANWHILE-
Mississippi is 50th in gun laws, and they come in SECOND in gun deaths. (The first is Alaska, but that might be an anomaly because it is sparsely populated.)
Louisiana is 33rd in gun laws, and comes in sixth in gun deaths.
Your state comes in 25th in laws, and 22nd in gun deaths.




Ray always has an excuse. So you mean the police would actually have to do WORK for those high salaries? OH MY GOD, what a concept. I thought this job was just driving around, hassling black drivers and eating fucking donuts. You mean they are supposed to conduct INVESTIGATIONS? Who knew?

They don't investigate murders because they don't care. When that female police officer was shot last year, they turned over every rock until they caught her killers. If it's some black person, meh, just phone it in, it's not like you are going to get fired or anything. those donuts aren't going to eat themselves.

There is only so many detectives to solve an overwhelming amount of murders in commie cities like yours.

“So far, 329 murders have been cleared, more than the department has solved in 15 years,” he said. “Something changed.”

Not all cases are cleared with an arrest and charges, however. Of the 329 cases, 134 were cleared by a category the department calls “exceptional,” which means police have identified a suspect, but either the suspect is dead or prosecutors said there was not enough evidence to approve charges.

Chicago police’s homicide clearance rate dips in 2020 after improvement in recent years

After chipping away at its persistently low homicide clearance rate, the number of murders solved by Chicago police has dropped in 2020, department officials said Monday.

www.chicagotribune.com

The police are doing their jobs, but it's much tougher in a city that fosters crime instead of victims. Yes you think their job is driving around eating doughnuts, because you think real life is what you see in movies on television.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Verbal domestic abusers usually turn into violent domestic abusers.

No because the point is that you get charged with misdemeanor domestic violence for simply screaming or making threat with no or little physical contact involved. When you hurt somebody is when you are charged with felony domestic violence which is not what we are talking about here.

 

[SavannahMann]

Then what is the point of having any constitutional rights at all if they can be taken away from people because they yelled at another person or made an empty threat of violence against them? If we are allowed to do that, then we can do the same for the right to peacefully assemble, freedom of speech, warrantless search and seizures by the government? And mind you we are at a time where the commies are trying to pass a bill forcing states to rescind their restrictions of ex-felons from voting.

Rights are never absolute. They are conditional. They are conditional upon your behavior. Your freedom of speech does not give you the right to threaten to murder someone. Your freedom of Religion does not give you the right to sacrifice animals or people to your god.

Your rights are always conditional, including the right to keep and bear arms. You have posted here many times about how irresponsible it is to allow violent criminals out of jail where they commit more crimes. What this thread started out with is an effort to reduce the numbers of violent crimes that are committed by potentially or allegedly violent people.

To cover this again. Between the point of A) The action which got the suspect arrested. And B) Where his guilt is adjudged, the advocate of the change wants to have the suspects disarmed.

Again surrendering firearms during bail, is common. There are a number of news stories that cover the situation repeatedly. People accused, not convicted of a crime, released on conditional bail. Conditional bail, means that they do not engage in specific activity during their time out of jail.

Conditions have included not associating with known criminals. Not drinking or using drugs. And not having access to weapons is another of those conditions in many cases.

This is not a permanent revocation of the right to keep and bear arms. That will be decided after the trial, when the court determines if you are Guilty of the crimes.

If the court decides you are not guilty, then your weapons are supposed to be returned to you.

Now, what is wrong with that? We do it a thousand times a day in this nation. We do it from coast to coast, and border to border. We are doing it even as you read this. A Judge is setting conditions of bail including the restriction of owning or possessing firearms.

2/3 of Domestic Violence Offenders are rearrested within five years.

The Lasting Consequences of Repeat Domestic Violence Charges

Repeat offenses can change your life in countless ways.

www.monroekinglaw.com

These are the habitual offenders, the repeat offenders you rail about when it is a black guy in Chicago. These are the people you scream the Liberals are trying to destroy the country by not locking them up and throwing away the key.

Now, the Liberals are arguing that these folks should, until their case is concluded, lose the right to possess firearms. Now, you and I know they can still get their hands on guns, but in doing so they risk a Felony Conviction later.

So what about this particular set of circumstances speaks to you personally? It isn’t the ideal of the outrage. We are talking about people accused of crimes which all too often lead to murder. Is it you who was accused of it at some point?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Rights are never absolute. They are conditional. They are conditional upon your behavior. Your freedom of speech does not give you the right to threaten to murder someone. Your freedom of Religion does not give you the right to sacrifice animals or people to your god.

Your rights are always conditional, including the right to keep and bear arms. You have posted here many times about how irresponsible it is to allow violent criminals out of jail where they commit more crimes. What this thread started out with is an effort to reduce the numbers of violent crimes that are committed by potentially or allegedly violent people.

To cover this again. Between the point of A) The action which got the suspect arrested. And B) Where his guilt is adjudged, the advocate of the change wants to have the suspects disarmed.

Again surrendering firearms during bail, is common. There are a number of news stories that cover the situation repeatedly. People accused, not convicted of a crime, released on conditional bail. Conditional bail, means that they do not engage in specific activity during their time out of jail.

Conditions have included not associating with known criminals. Not drinking or using drugs. And not having access to weapons is another of those conditions in many cases.

This is not a permanent revocation of the right to keep and bear arms. That will be decided after the trial, when the court determines if you are Guilty of the crimes.

If the court decides you are not guilty, then your weapons are supposed to be returned to you.

Now, what is wrong with that? We do it a thousand times a day in this nation. We do it from coast to coast, and border to border. We are doing it even as you read this. A Judge is setting conditions of bail including the restriction of owning or possessing firearms.

2/3 of Domestic Violence Offenders are rearrested within five years.

The Lasting Consequences of Repeat Domestic Violence Charges

Repeat offenses can change your life in countless ways.

www.monroekinglaw.com

These are the habitual offenders, the repeat offenders you rail about when it is a black guy in Chicago. These are the people you scream the Liberals are trying to destroy the country by not locking them up and throwing away the key.

Now, the Liberals are arguing that these folks should, until their case is concluded, lose the right to possess firearms. Now, you and I know they can still get their hands on guns, but in doing so they risk a Felony Conviction later.

So what about this particular set of circumstances speaks to you personally? It isn’t the ideal of the outrage. We are talking about people accused of crimes which all too often lead to murder. Is it you who was accused of it at some point?

The OP talks about a permanent suspension of a right, not a temporary restraint until their trial date. Convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence does not go away. It's a judgement that lasts a lifetime. I have no problem with a judge suspending their right to a firearm for a week or two. The cases I spoke about in Chicago involve an arrest of a felon who still carries guns around and let out on bail the very same day. In select cases they simply get another one and commit theft, assault and even death before their trial. An arrest of being in possession of a firearm as a felon should have bail set at a half-million dollars and a 10 year minimum prison sentence.

My point is that rights being taken away over something so innocuous as words is a constitutional violation. You don't have to threaten somebody with murder to be arrested and convicted of domestic misdemeanor charges. You and your brother could get into an argument and you say I'm going to bash your head in. That according to your link and others I have found can be used to charge somebody for a domestic misdemeanor and again, comes with a permanent ban on every being in possession of a firearm for life if convicted.

 

[Rigby5]

Verbal domestic abusers usually turn into violent domestic abusers.

Anticipation is not the basis for government use of force to violate rights.