Gun control, the actual slippery slope, British style.

2aguy

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2014
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This month in the NRA magazine they have an article by Charles C.W. Cooke on how the British lost their right to self defense...and their guns.....this is the actual slippery slope...how it was implemented, and how long it took...

anti-gunners are long term thinkers....they don't care if they can't get the guns today or tomorrow, they just know that they want them and will do whatever it takes to get them....

1903-2006.....the long march to disarmement......

Not With A Bang, But A Whimper

Step by step, the attitudes of the people had been reshaped and transmuted, such that by the time the coup de grace was inflicted, they didn’t know—or care—what they were losing.

Before 1903, there were no gun laws to speak of in the UK. (Readers of a literary bent will recall that Sherlock Holmes frequently accosts passers-by on the streets of London and asks to borrow their pistols.) By 1997, they were manifold. In the interim, a culture was lost.

To review the relevant history is to notice that there was no obvious turning point in the history of British gun control—no dramatic hinge on which the eventual collapse could be hung.

Every decade, things just got worse, until eventually there was no road left to travel.

In 1903, the British government broke with history and required those who intended to purchase pistols to obtain permission from the police before doing so.

(Hmmmm...I wonder where this is being pushed today?)

In 1920, the right to keep and bear arms—which had been protected within the British constitutional order since 1689—was relegated to a privilege, and the police and the home secretary were accorded control over who was permitted to exercise it.

In 1937, the police were granted more power to decide who was eligible for a firearms certificate, and, disgracefully, “self-defense” was removed from the list of acceptable justifications.

In 1968, standard long-barreled shotguns were added to the certification regime.

In 1988, a national gun registry was introduced and all semi-automatic rifles and pump-action shotguns were prohibited.

(Hmmmm.....registration of guns.....I wonder who is pushing for this in the United States....)

In 1997, the parliament banned all handguns, including .22s. I

(1903-1997.......94 years to finally ban guns.......and each step was simply common sense gun control.....and each step led to the next step....)

n 2006, it added airsoft replicas to the list of heavily regulated items. There are even those who push for bans on kitchen knives

At what point should the British have stood up and said, “No”? In 1937? 1968? In 1989? In truth, they should have resisted at the outset—in 1903.
 
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2aguy:

The problem that I have with your post is that it is rooted in an NRA opinion piece, that is itself more than slightly economical with the truth.

"As a native of Great Britain, I am often asked why the British were so quiet back in 1997, the year their government summarily banned all handguns. (And I do mean all: "

Which is incorrect. Just because he comes from around here does not mean that he knows what he's talking about. Here is a list of handguns which are Section 1, i.e. legal, across the UK.
  • Cap locks (e.g. Navy Colt 1851)
  • Flintlocks
  • Long barrelled revolvers
  • Handguns of historical significance
  • Handguns for humane dispatch
Additionally, many parts of the country are self-governing, to varying extents - Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Channel islands. So, they can set their own rules, and many areas have. Northern Ireland still has modern (revolver and semi-automatic) handguns.

"...and, disgracefully, “self-defense” was removed from the list of acceptable justifications. "

Which is to somewhat mislead. Self-defence with a gun is legal (within limits), getting a gun for self-defence is illegal. That's an important distinction in UK law.

"In 1988, a national gun registry was introduced and all semi-automatic rifles and pump-action shotguns were prohibited. "

No. Both categories are still Section 1, i.e. legal. What is slightly restricted is centre-fire semi-automatic rifles, which have to be straight-pull or lever-release. 22lr semi-automatics in the UK are identical to US semi-automatics. Except that the UK doesn't have stupid magazine size restrictions.

The big difference between UK and US gun laws is that every UK gun owner is licensed, just as every US gun dealer is licensed. It takes some of the aggression away. Doesn't take the guns away, though. Every US gun dealer still has their guns. Get this - the biggest UK gun grabbing organisation has all of FOUR members in a country of 65 million people. That's what happens when you regulate guns properly.
 
When you are trying to defend something defenseless you make statements like, “Self-defence (sic) with a gun is legal (within limits), getting a gun for self-defence is illegal.” Your stating that guns are regulated properly because some archaic and useless guns are still allowed is disingenuous and exactly the point that proves the OP correct. It's like saying we didn't ban telephones because you can still own two tin cans and a string.
 
When you are trying to defend something defenseless you make statements like, “Self-defence (sic) with a gun is legal (within limits), getting a gun for self-defence is illegal.” Your stating that guns are regulated properly because some archaic and useless guns are still allowed is disingenuous and exactly the point that proves the OP correct. It's like saying we didn't ban telephones because you can still own two tin cans and a string.

I am sorry, but you have missed the point. The OP suggested that because you cannot buy a knife, baseball bat or gun for self-defense that therefore there is no self-defense. This point has been made in such a repetitive way that it is danger of becoming a 'fact'. It is not true. The original article also stated - as a fact - that there are no handguns in the UK, and I showed that this isn't the case. We had some major problems with the more modern handguns, and the change in the law reflected this. Ya know, democracy?
 
I'm sorry, but YOU missed the point. The OP did not mention anything about knives or bats. The fact that you allow only useless antique weapons claiming this allows pistols is just a distraction from the fact you don't allow those that would actually be useful for self defense.
 
Inane post. Copious gun laws stop the weaker from defending themselves from the stronger. If you think that an article about a horrendous act by a child is reason for more laws that don't work and are worried about the way you live, why not move to Chicago where they have stringent gun laws. Better yet, Britain still allows some immigration.
 
2aguy:

The problem that I have with your post is that it is rooted in an NRA opinion piece, that is itself more than slightly economical with the truth.

"As a native of Great Britain, I am often asked why the British were so quiet back in 1997, the year their government summarily banned all handguns. (And I do mean all: "

Which is incorrect. Just because he comes from around here does not mean that he knows what he's talking about. Here is a list of handguns which are Section 1, i.e. legal, across the UK.
  • Cap locks (e.g. Navy Colt 1851)
  • Flintlocks
  • Long barrelled revolvers
  • Handguns of historical significance
  • Handguns for humane dispatch
Additionally, many parts of the country are self-governing, to varying extents - Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Channel islands. So, they can set their own rules, and many areas have. Northern Ireland still has modern (revolver and semi-automatic) handguns.

"...and, disgracefully, “self-defense” was removed from the list of acceptable justifications. "

Which is to somewhat mislead. Self-defence with a gun is legal (within limits), getting a gun for self-defence is illegal. That's an important distinction in UK law.

"In 1988, a national gun registry was introduced and all semi-automatic rifles and pump-action shotguns were prohibited. "

No. Both categories are still Section 1, i.e. legal. What is slightly restricted is centre-fire semi-automatic rifles, which have to be straight-pull or lever-release. 22lr semi-automatics in the UK are identical to US semi-automatics. Except that the UK doesn't have stupid magazine size restrictions.

The big difference between UK and US gun laws is that every UK gun owner is licensed, just as every US gun dealer is licensed. It takes some of the aggression away. Doesn't take the guns away, though. Every US gun dealer still has their guns. Get this - the biggest UK gun grabbing organisation has all of FOUR members in a country of 65 million people. That's what happens when you regulate guns properly.


No...it doesn't take any of the aggression away...and he is essentially correct in his article......every practical weapon has been banned by the British government....
 
I'm sorry, but YOU missed the point. The OP did not mention anything about knives or bats. The fact that you allow only useless antique weapons claiming this allows pistols is just a distraction from the fact you don't allow those that would actually be useful for self defense.
Why would the Brits or any other civilized country want to live like we do?
Police: 14-Year-Old Shoots Mom & Brother, Tries To Pin Murders On Dad



Do you realize that in the 1990s we had 200 million guns in private hands...and in 1997 we had 4.7 million people actually carrying guns for self defense....now, in 2016...we have 357-400 million guns in private hands....and close to 15 million people carrying guns for self defense....

And our gun murder rate went down 49%.....and our accidental gun death rate and our non fatal accident gun rate.....both went down as well...

YOur post has no bearing in the reality of gun ownership in America....but please...keep lying by omission as to the truth about gun ownership in this country.....
 
I'm sorry, but YOU missed the point. The OP did not mention anything about knives or bats. The fact that you allow only useless antique weapons claiming this allows pistols is just a distraction from the fact you don't allow those that would actually be useful for self defense.
Why would the Brits or any other civilized country want to live like we do?
Police: 14-Year-Old Shoots Mom & Brother, Tries To Pin Murders On Dad


You mean like in Britain....

Teenager jailed for 16 years after murdering senior civil servant

A teenager has been jailed for at least 16 years after being found guilty of murdering a high-ranking civil servant after they met via the gay social networking app Grindr.

A judge said Ben Bamford, then 17, caused “merciless carnage” by using at least three knives to inflict more than 40 injuries on Paul Jefferies, 52, including slashing his throat.

Jefferies, a senior HM Revenue and Customs official who reportedly advised ex-chancellor George Osborne’s Treasury team, was found naked with a tea towel over his head on his kitchen floor in Mayfield, East Sussex, in February.
 
I'm sorry, but YOU missed the point. The OP did not mention anything about knives or bats. The fact that you allow only useless antique weapons claiming this allows pistols is just a distraction from the fact you don't allow those that would actually be useful for self defense.
Why would the Brits or any other civilized country want to live like we do?
Police: 14-Year-Old Shoots Mom & Brother, Tries To Pin Murders On Dad

You mean like this...in Britain...

14-year-old boy arrested after 15-year-old girl stabbed

A 14-year-old boy has been arrested after a teenage girl was stabbed on a high street in Kent.

Police were called to reports that a 15-year-old girl has been assaulted in Mill Street, Maidstone, at 9.05pm on 31 August, 2016.
 
I'm sorry, but YOU missed the point. The OP did not mention anything about knives or bats. The fact that you allow only useless antique weapons claiming this allows pistols is just a distraction from the fact you don't allow those that would actually be useful for self defense.
Why would the Brits or any other civilized country want to live like we do?
Police: 14-Year-Old Shoots Mom & Brother, Tries To Pin Murders On Dad

You mean like this...in Britain...

14-year-old boy arrested after 15-year-old girl stabbed

A 14-year-old boy has been arrested after a teenage girl was stabbed on a high street in Kent.

Police were called to reports that a 15-year-old girl has been assaulted in Mill Street, Maidstone, at 9.05pm on 31 August, 2016.
What I dont understand is we have no guns.

And yet our murder rate is way below the US.

How is this possible when there are no "good guys with guns" to step in and save us when an "illegal darkie" goes mental and starts shooting people ?

Can somebody explain this ?
 
I'm sorry, but YOU missed the point. The OP did not mention anything about knives or bats. The fact that you allow only useless antique weapons claiming this allows pistols is just a distraction from the fact you don't allow those that would actually be useful for self defense.
Why would the Brits or any other civilized country want to live like we do?
Police: 14-Year-Old Shoots Mom & Brother, Tries To Pin Murders On Dad

You mean like this...in Britain...

14-year-old boy arrested after 15-year-old girl stabbed

A 14-year-old boy has been arrested after a teenage girl was stabbed on a high street in Kent.

Police were called to reports that a 15-year-old girl has been assaulted in Mill Street, Maidstone, at 9.05pm on 31 August, 2016.
What I dont understand is we have no guns.

And yet our murder rate is way below the US.

How is this possible when there are no "good guys with guns" to step in and save us when an "illegal darkie" goes mental and starts shooting people ?

Can somebody explain this ?


actually, you are wrong.....again. Your murder rate was lower than the United States when the government allowed you to own handguns......so you are wrong there...

Also, our non gun murder rate is higher than your total murder rate...so you would be wrong on that aspect of this thread too.....

What happened when you confiscated and banned your guns......your gun crime rate spiked for years after the ban and confiscation....and is now at the same level it was at before you banned and confiscated your guns...banning guns did nothing to your gun murder or crime rate....

And last year......your gun murder rate went up.....10% in your major cities, including London......so you are wrong on that point.....

And of course criminals in Britain have been bringing in more guns, including more fully automatic weapons...as your police have reported...so you are wrong there too.......

Our problem is that we have allowed political correctness get in the way of keeping violent criminals away from normal people......we do not lock up convicted felons caught multiple times with illegal guns...who then go out and shoot someone when they should have been in jail.....

So essentially, you gun confiscation and ban did nothing to lower your gun crime rate.....and now you are the most violent country in Europe....and you are even more violent than the United States...per capita.....except your people are helpless when they are attacked.....
 
I'm sorry, but YOU missed the point. The OP did not mention anything about knives or bats. The fact that you allow only useless antique weapons claiming this allows pistols is just a distraction from the fact you don't allow those that would actually be useful for self defense.
Why would the Brits or any other civilized country want to live like we do?
Police: 14-Year-Old Shoots Mom & Brother, Tries To Pin Murders On Dad

You mean like this...in Britain...

14-year-old boy arrested after 15-year-old girl stabbed

A 14-year-old boy has been arrested after a teenage girl was stabbed on a high street in Kent.

Police were called to reports that a 15-year-old girl has been assaulted in Mill Street, Maidstone, at 9.05pm on 31 August, 2016.
What I dont understand is we have no guns.

And yet our murder rate is way below the US.

How is this possible when there are no "good guys with guns" to step in and save us when an "illegal darkie" goes mental and starts shooting people ?

Can somebody explain this ?


And without legal guns...your criminals are still using guns...more so than last year...

Homicides in England and Wales up 14%

The police-recorded crime figures include a 9% rise in knife crime and a 4% rise in gun crime, which are thought to reflect a rise in gang violence largely in London and Manchester.

The rise in gun crime is the first recorded for eight years and includes a 10% rise in London.
The official statisticians say that a 36% rise in sexual offences, including the highest number of rapes since 2003 – at 33,341 – reflect a greater willingness of victims to come forward to report such crimes rather than a real surge in attacks.

And it gets worse for you.....

CCTV captures shooting during 12-man brawl in north London

Shots were fired during a confrontation involving at least 12 men in a quiet suburban street, police have revealed.

CCTV footage shows three car-loads of men, thought to be rival gangs, pull up in a residential street in north London, before squaring up to each other in the lamplight.

One hooded man pulls away from the huddle, points a handgun towards a driver’s seat and apparently fires as the car reverses away.
--------
Latest figures show a 10 per cent increase in firearms incidents – up to 2,122 – in the past year.

Violent crime in England and Wales was up 24 per cent during the 12 months ending June this year, according to an Office for National Statistics report.==================


And more guns are on your streets...after the ban and confiscation...how is that possible?

Rising number of guns being smuggled into UK, Metropolitan police say

More guns are being seized in cities across Britain as the number of firearms being smuggled into the country increases, Britain’s most senior police officer has said.

Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan police commissioner, told a hearing at London’s City Hall that a rise in gun crime in the capital was being put down to an increase in the number of weapons coming into the country.

The Met seized a “worrying” record number of weapons in 2015, including semiautomatic guns, Hogan-Howe said.

“We’ve seized more firearms than ever before,” he said. “In the previous year [2015] we’ve seized 714 guns – that’s around two per day. In a city this size, that’s a worrying number. This is an increase on previous years. Some of them are semiautomatic weapons, too.

“If you look around the big cities of the country, they are seeing a similar profile. Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool – they are seeing big rises as well.”
 
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And the essential fact is that our gun murder rate is a fraction of that in the US.
How can that be when we dont have the "good guy with a gun" to do a "John Wayne" for us ?

Most people do not own a gun and our society is a lot safer for it.
 
And the essential fact is that our gun murder rate is a fraction of that in the US.
How can that be when we dont have the "good guy with a gun" to do a "John Wayne" for us ?

Most people do not own a gun and our society is a lot safer for it.


Because your criminal culture is violent....but they don't cross the line into murder as often as our criminals do...in fact, your country is 2X as violent as the United States......but again, your gun murder rate was low when you were allowed to own handguns.....

And now that normal, law abiding citizens can't own handguns...your gun crime rate is going up, not down....as the stats I linked to show....

Your society was safer because of your culture...since you used to have access to guns and your society was still peaceful....after you confiscated guns...your gun crime rate has gone up, not down.....
 
And the essential fact is that our gun murder rate is a fraction of that in the US.
How can that be when we dont have the "good guy with a gun" to do a "John Wayne" for us ?

Most people do not own a gun and our society is a lot safer for it.


Because your criminal culture is violent....but they don't cross the line into murder as often as our criminals do...in fact, your country is 2X as violent as the United States......but again, your gun murder rate was low when you were allowed to own handguns.....

And now that normal, law abiding citizens can't own handguns...your gun crime rate is going up, not down....as the stats I linked to show....

Your society was safer because of your culture...since you used to have access to guns and your society was still peaceful....after you confiscated guns...your gun crime rate has gone up, not down.....
Posting your opinion as fact doesnt advance your cause.
 
And the essential fact is that our gun murder rate is a fraction of that in the US.
How can that be when we dont have the "good guy with a gun" to do a "John Wayne" for us ?

Most people do not own a gun and our society is a lot safer for it.


Because your criminal culture is violent....but they don't cross the line into murder as often as our criminals do...in fact, your country is 2X as violent as the United States......but again, your gun murder rate was low when you were allowed to own handguns.....

And now that normal, law abiding citizens can't own handguns...your gun crime rate is going up, not down....as the stats I linked to show....

Your society was safer because of your culture...since you used to have access to guns and your society was still peaceful....after you confiscated guns...your gun crime rate has gone up, not down.....
Posting your opinion as fact doesnt advance your cause.


Not opinion....the links I provided show that Britain's gun control doesn't work...criminals get guns and use them when they need to.......the only thing keeping your murder rate lower....your criminals do not choose to commit murder as often......they do use torture quite a bit......
 
And the essential fact is that our gun murder rate is a fraction of that in the US.
How can that be when we dont have the "good guy with a gun" to do a "John Wayne" for us ?

Most people do not own a gun and our society is a lot safer for it.


Because your criminal culture is violent....but they don't cross the line into murder as often as our criminals do...in fact, your country is 2X as violent as the United States......but again, your gun murder rate was low when you were allowed to own handguns.....

And now that normal, law abiding citizens can't own handguns...your gun crime rate is going up, not down....as the stats I linked to show....

Your society was safer because of your culture...since you used to have access to guns and your society was still peaceful....after you confiscated guns...your gun crime rate has gone up, not down.....
Posting your opinion as fact doesnt advance your cause.


Not opinion....the links I provided show that Britain's gun control doesn't work...criminals get guns and use them when they need to.......the only thing keeping your murder rate lower....your criminals do not choose to commit murder as often......they do use torture quite a bit......
You didnt post any links. Our murder rates ,and specifically gun murder rates, are way below those in your country.
Which means that our way is better and that gun nuts like yourself have blood on your hands.
 
2aguy:

The problem that I have with your post is that it is rooted in an NRA opinion piece, that is itself more than slightly economical with the truth.

"As a native of Great Britain, I am often asked why the British were so quiet back in 1997, the year their government summarily banned all handguns. (And I do mean all: "

Which is incorrect. Just because he comes from around here does not mean that he knows what he's talking about. Here is a list of handguns which are Section 1, i.e. legal, across the UK.
  • Cap locks (e.g. Navy Colt 1851)
  • Flintlocks
  • Long barrelled revolvers
  • Handguns of historical significance
  • Handguns for humane dispatch
Additionally, many parts of the country are self-governing, to varying extents - Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Channel islands. So, they can set their own rules, and many areas have. Northern Ireland still has modern (revolver and semi-automatic) handguns.

"...and, disgracefully, “self-defense” was removed from the list of acceptable justifications. "

Which is to somewhat mislead. Self-defence with a gun is legal (within limits), getting a gun for self-defence is illegal. That's an important distinction in UK law.

"In 1988, a national gun registry was introduced and all semi-automatic rifles and pump-action shotguns were prohibited. "

No. Both categories are still Section 1, i.e. legal. What is slightly restricted is centre-fire semi-automatic rifles, which have to be straight-pull or lever-release. 22lr semi-automatics in the UK are identical to US semi-automatics. Except that the UK doesn't have stupid magazine size restrictions.

The big difference between UK and US gun laws is that every UK gun owner is licensed, just as every US gun dealer is licensed. It takes some of the aggression away. Doesn't take the guns away, though. Every US gun dealer still has their guns. Get this - the biggest UK gun grabbing organisation has all of FOUR members in a country of 65 million people. That's what happens when you regulate guns properly.
None of those handguns listed are particularly usable for self defense.
I'm sorry, but YOU missed the point. The OP did not mention anything about knives or bats. The fact that you allow only useless antique weapons claiming this allows pistols is just a distraction from the fact you don't allow those that would actually be useful for self defense.
Why would the Brits or any other civilized country want to live like we do?
Police: 14-Year-Old Shoots Mom & Brother, Tries To Pin Murders On Dad

You mean like this...in Britain...

14-year-old boy arrested after 15-year-old girl stabbed

A 14-year-old boy has been arrested after a teenage girl was stabbed on a high street in Kent.

Police were called to reports that a 15-year-old girl has been assaulted in Mill Street, Maidstone, at 9.05pm on 31 August, 2016.
What I dont understand is we have no guns.

And yet our murder rate is way below the US.

How is this possible when there are no "good guys with guns" to step in and save us when an "illegal darkie" goes mental and starts shooting people ?

Can somebody explain this ?
The murder rate in the UK has always been lower than that of the US even before all the draconian gun laws

The Murder rate in both the US and the UK are about the same as they were in 1950

There are other causes for murder than just the availability of guns and one of the major factors of the US murder rate is the failure of our large urban areas to control gang violence. There are a myriad of social cultural factors as well
 

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