God does exist. Itelligent design in the Universe is prof of God.

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

 

[Blues Man]

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

I'm not saying that. I am saying that. I am saying... The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities.

That's exactly what you said.

So here we go again with you lying about what you said.

the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

I'm not seeing any inconsistency in what I wrote.

Of course you don't because you are incapable of intellectual honesty.

If humans did not create math then how can you say the math to describe black holes does not exist?

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

 

[Blues Man]

We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.

So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?

It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.

Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.

The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.

They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.

Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?

No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

OR we are simply incapable of the thought processes required to create the equations to do so

Only time will tell. Science has done a good job so far.

Not really since we barely understand 5% of the universe

Based on that logic you must believe you know next to nothing.

Unlike you I realize that the total of what I know is much much less than what I don't know.

 

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

 

[ding]

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

I'm not saying that. I am saying that. I am saying... The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities.

That's exactly what you said.

So here we go again with you lying about what you said.

the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

I'm not seeing any inconsistency in what I wrote.

Of course you don't because you are incapable of intellectual honesty.

If humans did not create math then how can you say the math to describe black holes does not exist?

The dishonest is all yours and it isn't intellectual dishonesty.

I can say that the math to describe the boundary condition where the present equations yield infinite densities does not exist because it has not been discovered yet because our understanding of the physics at the boundary has not been discovered yet, so the equations - or the math - has not been discovered yet.

 

[ding]

We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.

So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?

It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.

Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.

The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.

They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.

Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?

No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

OR we are simply incapable of the thought processes required to create the equations to do so

Only time will tell. Science has done a good job so far.

Not really since we barely understand 5% of the universe

Based on that logic you must believe you know next to nothing.

Unlike you I realize that the total of what I know is much much less than what I don't know.

You don't know what I know or don't know. You can't even properly state what I have been writing.

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

 

[Flash]

After you boil all the berries there are only two possibilities for the existence of the universe.

1. There is an intelligent design to the universe.

2. The universe magically created itself out of nothing.

To me #2 is completely illogical. You don't create sumtin outta nutin.

I'll go with #1.

 

[Taz]

After you boil all the berries there are only two possibilities for the existence of the universe.

1. There is an intelligent design to the universe.

2. The universe magically created itself out of nothing.

To me #2 is completely illogical. You don't create sumtin outta nutin.

I'll go with #1.

3. We don't know.

 

[Taz]

I can say that the math to describe the boundary condition where the present equations yield infinite densities does not exist because it has not been discovered yet because our understanding of the physics at the boundary has not been discovered yet, so the equations - or the math - has not been discovered yet.

So, like the BB.

 

[Blues Man]

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

I'm not saying that. I am saying that. I am saying... The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities.

That's exactly what you said.

So here we go again with you lying about what you said.

the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

I'm not seeing any inconsistency in what I wrote.

Of course you don't because you are incapable of intellectual honesty.

If humans did not create math then how can you say the math to describe black holes does not exist?

The dishonest is all yours and it isn't intellectual dishonesty.

I can say that the math to describe the boundary condition where the present equations yield infinite densities does not exist because it has not been discovered yet because our understanding of the physics at the boundary has not been discovered yet, so the equations - or the math - has not been discovered yet.

You really have a problem with definitions.

If it hasn't been "discovered" then it has to exist already for it to be discovered

If it doesn't exist it has to be created by humans.

 

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

 

[Blues Man]

We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.

So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?

It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.

Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.

The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.

They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.

Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?

No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

OR we are simply incapable of the thought processes required to create the equations to do so

Only time will tell. Science has done a good job so far.

Not really since we barely understand 5% of the universe

Based on that logic you must believe you know next to nothing.

Unlike you I realize that the total of what I know is much much less than what I don't know.

You don't know what I know or don't know. You can't even properly state what I have been writing.

I quoted what you wrote verbatim. So I am using YOUR statements not mine.

 

[ding]

I can say that the math to describe the boundary condition where the present equations yield infinite densities does not exist because it has not been discovered yet because our understanding of the physics at the boundary has not been discovered yet, so the equations - or the math - has not been discovered yet.

So, like the BB.

More like the density or volume calculation. How it happened is not affected. Space and time were still created. Nothing can change that. No matter how much it freaks atheists out.

 

[ding]

We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.

So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?

It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.

Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.

The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.

They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.

Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?

No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

OR we are simply incapable of the thought processes required to create the equations to do so

Only time will tell. Science has done a good job so far.

Not really since we barely understand 5% of the universe

Based on that logic you must believe you know next to nothing.

Unlike you I realize that the total of what I know is much much less than what I don't know.

You don't know what I know or don't know. You can't even properly state what I have been writing.

I quoted what you wrote verbatim. So I am using YOUR statements not mine.

You are quibbling over wording. My intent is clear. Mathematical truths, scientific truths, logical truths, moral truths, etc are not invented or created. They are discovered.

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

 

[ding]

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

I'm not saying that. I am saying that. I am saying... The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities.

That's exactly what you said.

So here we go again with you lying about what you said.

the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

I'm not seeing any inconsistency in what I wrote.

Of course you don't because you are incapable of intellectual honesty.

If humans did not create math then how can you say the math to describe black holes does not exist?

The dishonest is all yours and it isn't intellectual dishonesty.

I can say that the math to describe the boundary condition where the present equations yield infinite densities does not exist because it has not been discovered yet because our understanding of the physics at the boundary has not been discovered yet, so the equations - or the math - has not been discovered yet.

You really have a problem with definitions.

If it hasn't been "discovered" then it has to exist already for it to be discovered

If it doesn't exist it has to be created by humans.

No. I don't have a problem with definitions. You have a problem with me.

 

[Blues Man]

We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.

So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?

It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.

Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.

The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.

They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.

Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?

No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

OR we are simply incapable of the thought processes required to create the equations to do so

Only time will tell. Science has done a good job so far.

Not really since we barely understand 5% of the universe

Based on that logic you must believe you know next to nothing.

Unlike you I realize that the total of what I know is much much less than what I don't know.

You don't know what I know or don't know. You can't even properly state what I have been writing.

I quoted what you wrote verbatim. So I am using YOUR statements not mine.

You are quibbling over wording. My intent is clear. Mathematical truths, scientific truths, logical truths, moral truths, etc are not invented or created. They are discovered.

Words mean things you don't seem to understand that your lazy use of words undermines any argument you make and your denial of the fact that you routinely change definitions and deny previous statements even when exact quotes are provided to you once again demonstrates your dishonesty.

And you are still contradicting yourself by saying the math to describe black holes does not exist.

If it does not exist then it cannot be discovered.

 

[Blues Man]

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

I'm not saying that. I am saying that. I am saying... The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities.

That's exactly what you said.

So here we go again with you lying about what you said.

the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

I'm not seeing any inconsistency in what I wrote.

Of course you don't because you are incapable of intellectual honesty.

If humans did not create math then how can you say the math to describe black holes does not exist?

The dishonest is all yours and it isn't intellectual dishonesty.

I can say that the math to describe the boundary condition where the present equations yield infinite densities does not exist because it has not been discovered yet because our understanding of the physics at the boundary has not been discovered yet, so the equations - or the math - has not been discovered yet.

You really have a problem with definitions.

If it hasn't been "discovered" then it has to exist already for it to be discovered

If it doesn't exist it has to be created by humans.

No. I don't have a problem with definitions. You have a problem with me.

With you changing the definitions of words.

If a thing does not exist it cannot be discovered.