God does exist. Itelligent design in the Universe is prof of God.

[Fort Fun Indiana]

They are called moral laws and they exist naturally

False. Laughably false.

 

[ding]

.. Never said it was the other way around.

I didn't say you did. I was making my own point.

So you agree with me then? Great.

Technically, you agreed with me.

 

[ding]

They are called moral laws and they exist naturally

False. Laughably false.

Try behaving like a cad and see what happens. Because if it were as you say then all behaviors would lead to equal outcomes.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations represent the laws as best they can within the limitation of our understanding of the physics

Psychobabble. The laws do indeed break down, as the mathematics show.

 

[ding]

Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations represent the laws as best they can within the limitation of our understanding of the physics

Psychobabble. The laws do indeed break down, as the mathematics show.

No. They don't. The universe was created according to the laws of conservation and quantum mechanics. The laws were in place before space and time itself.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Try behaving like a cad and see what happens.

Like getting elected president? Or, like becoming the feudal lord by force? Sorry ding...our morality evolved by secular, intellectual means. And there certainly are no laws.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The universe was created according to the laws of conservation and quantum mechanics

So says Shaman Ding. Get off my porch, shaman.

 

[ding]

The universe was created according to the laws of conservation and quantum mechanics

So says Shaman Ding. Get off my porch, shaman.

So says a world renowned cosmologist.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So says a world renowned cosmologist.

And the "beginning" shaman ding insists upon violates the laws of quantum mechanics, per every cosmologist and physicist. Whoops. You stepped in it this time.

 

[ding]

Try behaving like a cad and see what happens.

Like getting elected president? Or, like becoming the feudal lord by force? Sorry ding...our morality evolved by secular, intellectual means. And there certainly are no laws.

We can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it. But eventually there are negative consequences to negative behaviors. This is the moral law at work.

 

[ding]

So says a world renowned cosmologist.

And the "beginning" shaman ding insists upon violates the laws of quantum mechanics, per every cosmologist and physicist. Whoops. You stepped in it this time.

You saying it does, does not make it so.

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Here we go again.. Spam, spam, spam, spam,..

 

[ding]

Here we go again.. Spam, spam, spam, spam,..

Great rebuttal. You really put me in my place with that intellectual reply.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Try behaving like a cad and see what happens.

Like getting elected president? Or, like becoming the feudal lord by force? Sorry ding...our morality evolved by secular, intellectual means. And there certainly are no laws.

We can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it. But eventually there are negative consequences to negative behaviors. This is the moral law at work.

By the way, Alexander Velenkin believes in multiple universes and universes before and after our Big Bang. Multiple Big Bangs. So the next time you feel like cherry picking a scientist to misrepresent him, you might want to spend a little more time checking him out.

 

[BreezeWood]

Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations represent the laws as best they can within the limitation of our understanding of the physics

Psychobabble. The laws do indeed break down, as the mathematics show.

No. They don't. The universe was created according to the laws of conservation and quantum mechanics. The laws were in place before space and time itself.

.

The laws were in place before space and time itself.

.
you have yet to prove there was ever a period matter or energy have not existed.

 

[ding]

Try behaving like a cad and see what happens.

Like getting elected president? Or, like becoming the feudal lord by force? Sorry ding...our morality evolved by secular, intellectual means. And there certainly are no laws.

We can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it. But eventually there are negative consequences to negative behaviors. This is the moral law at work.

By the way, Alexander Velenkin believes in multiple universes and universes before and after our Big Bang. Multiple Big Bangs. So the next time you feel like cherry picking a scientist to misrepresent him, you might want to spend a little more time checking him out.

You think I didn't know that? Of course I knew that. So what?

But let's be clear, in post #249 you said his theory violated the laws of quantum mechanics, right?

And now you are arguing they didn't?

 

[ding]

Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations represent the laws as best they can within the limitation of our understanding of the physics

Psychobabble. The laws do indeed break down, as the mathematics show.

No. They don't. The universe was created according to the laws of conservation and quantum mechanics. The laws were in place before space and time itself.

.

The laws were in place before space and time itself.

.
you have yet to prove there was ever a period matter or energy have not existed.

Actually, Vilenkin did.

 

[BreezeWood]

Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations represent the laws as best they can within the limitation of our understanding of the physics

Psychobabble. The laws do indeed break down, as the mathematics show.

No. They don't. The universe was created according to the laws of conservation and quantum mechanics. The laws were in place before space and time itself.

.

The laws were in place before space and time itself.

.
you have yet to prove there was ever a period matter or energy have not existed.

Actually, Vilenkin did.

.

you have yet to prove there was ever a period matter or energy have not existed.

Actually, Vilenkin did.

.
that well went dry long ago ... find a new one to hide behind.

 

[ding]

Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations represent the laws as best they can within the limitation of our understanding of the physics

Psychobabble. The laws do indeed break down, as the mathematics show.

No. They don't. The universe was created according to the laws of conservation and quantum mechanics. The laws were in place before space and time itself.

.

The laws were in place before space and time itself.

.
you have yet to prove there was ever a period matter or energy have not existed.

Actually, Vilenkin did.

.

you have yet to prove there was ever a period matter or energy have not existed.

Actually, Vilenkin did.

.
that well went dry long ago ... find a new one to hide behind.

The universe beginning freaks atheists out.

 

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.