God does exist. Itelligent design in the Universe is prof of God.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference
Indeed. Laws are made to be broken and our understanding of the applicable mathematics is always questionable. The math / geometry driving everything has always existed. We've only discovered and made use of bits here and there.. slowly.. long way to go.. 3 steps forward, 2 steps back..

The math didn't exist before there were human to codify it.

I am of the mind that humans are incapable of understanding everything in the universe because our brains are incapable of the intellectual processes required. My dogs will never comprehend prime numbers because their brains are incapable of the thought process necessary. It is not too far a stretch to think our brains have similar limitations
 
We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.
So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?
It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.
Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.
The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.
They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.
 
what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference
I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.
It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.
 
what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference
Indeed. Laws are made to be broken and our understanding of the applicable mathematics is always questionable. The math / geometry driving everything has always existed. We've only discovered and made use of bits here and there.. slowly.. long way to go.. 3 steps forward, 2 steps back..

The math didn't exist before there were human to codify it.

I am of the mind that humans are incapable of understanding everything in the universe because our brains are incapable of the intellectual processes required. My dogs will never comprehend prime numbers because their brains are incapable of the thought process necessary. It is not too far a stretch to think our brains have similar limitations
You mean discover it.

Yours appears to be incapable of understanding what we already do know.
 
We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.
So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?
It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.
Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.
The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.
They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.
Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.
 
what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference
I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.
It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.
So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?
 
what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference
I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.
It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.
So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?
Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.
 
We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.
So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?
It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.
Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.
The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.
They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.
Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?
 
what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference
I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.
It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.
So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?
Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.
You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?
 
We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.
So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?
It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.
Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.
The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.
They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.
Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?
No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.
 
what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference
I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.
It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.
So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?
Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.
You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?
It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.
 
We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.
So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?
It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.
Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.
The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.
They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.
Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?
No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

OR we are simply incapable of the thought processes required to create the equations to do so
 
So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?
I'm not saying that. I am saying that. I am saying... The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities.
 
what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference
I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.
It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.
So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?
Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.
You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?
It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.
 
We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.
So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?
It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.
Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.
The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.
They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.
Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?
No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

OR we are simply incapable of the thought processes required to create the equations to do so
Only time will tell. Science has done a good job so far.
 
So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?
I'm not saying that. I am saying that. I am saying... The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities.
That's exactly what you said.

So here we go again with you lying about what you said.

the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.
 
We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.
So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?
It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.
Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.
The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.
They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.
Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?
No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

OR we are simply incapable of the thought processes required to create the equations to do so
Only time will tell. Science has done a good job so far.
Not really since we barely understand 5% of the universe
 
what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference
I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.
It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.
So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?
Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.
You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?
It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.
You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.
 
We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

You've the right to believe that a God exists. However, there is no proof, no probative evidence to convince others.
So it's just a coincidence that the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence?
It's not.

the universe is just a vast space where trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power random events occur.

We are but one of those random occurrences resulting from an unimaginably long chain of occurrences.
Cause and effect says otherwise.

Causes can be random.

For you to say the universe is "hard wired" for anything you must be able to show the circuitry not just invent reasons for what you see.
The circuitry are the laws of nature. Unless of course you think everything happens all accidental like.

What law of nature is it that says intelligence is hard wired? And yes a great many things are the result of random events because a random event can be a cause of something else.

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?
The laws that led to:

1. cosmic evolution
2. stellar evolution
3. chemical evolution
4. biological evolution
5. evolution of consciousness

There is no natural law of consciousness.
They are called moral laws and they exist naturally. Consciousness is evolving.

Morality is a human invention.
Like math, right?

Man didn't invent math or morality. Man discovered it just as man discovered everything else which exists independent of man.

Again if math exists whther or not humans do how can you say the math to explain what happens in black holes doesn't exist?
No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

OR we are simply incapable of the thought processes required to create the equations to do so
Only time will tell. Science has done a good job so far.
Not really since we barely understand 5% of the universe
Based on that logic you must believe you know next to nothing.
 
So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?
I'm not saying that. I am saying that. I am saying... The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities.
That's exactly what you said.

So here we go again with you lying about what you said.

the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.
I'm not seeing any inconsistency in what I wrote.
 

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