God does exist. Itelligent design in the Universe is prof of God.

[Flash]

 

[Grumblenuts]

No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

The physics have been discovered but we've allowed some bumbling fool's presumptions to limit our previous options. Tesla (among others) embraced infinities because he loved experimenting with them. Dopey Einstein just sat around farting with other's findings, then sludged up physics royally with his ridiculous warped space - time model. Quantum mechanists similarly continue throwing spanners into the works with their false slit experiment conclusions and mistaken thousand flavors of smashed subatomic "particles / waves." What's actually quantized is allowable states of electrical activity (actual "electricity") due to the Aether's (therefore space's and counterspace's) natural geometric limitations and preferred orientations. But I'm just going to stop now and ask myself why I'm talking to you

 

[Flash]

After you boil all the berries there are only two possibilities for the existence of the universe.

1. There is an intelligent design to the universe.

2. The universe magically created itself out of nothing.

To me #2 is completely illogical. You don't create sumtin outta nutin.

I'll go with #1.

.

1. There is an intelligent design to the universe.

.
is that to imply from a source or on its own behalf. by chance for its own fruition. how the metaphysical came about.

I'm an Engineer and I look at facts.

It is logical to assume that if there is no intelligent design to this universe then the only other possible alternative is that it magically created itself, out of nothing. Since I have been taught the Laws of Physics at an accredited university and received a passing grade then I don't see how that is possible.

If you or anybody else knows how that is possible I would be delighted to hear the explanation.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It is logical to assume that if there is no intelligent design to this universe then the only other possible alternative is that it magically created itself, out of nothing

No it isn't. That is irrational and narrow minded.

 

[BreezeWood]

After you boil all the berries there are only two possibilities for the existence of the universe.

1. There is an intelligent design to the universe.

2. The universe magically created itself out of nothing.

To me #2 is completely illogical. You don't create sumtin outta nutin.

I'll go with #1.

.

1. There is an intelligent design to the universe.

.
is that to imply from a source or on its own behalf. by chance for its own fruition. how the metaphysical came about.

I'm an Engineer and I look at facts.

It is logical to assume that if there is no intelligent design to this universe then the only other possible alternative is that it magically created itself, out of nothing. Since I have been taught the Laws of Physics at an accredited university and received a passing grade then I don't see how that is possible.

If you or anybody else knows how that is possible I would be delighted to hear the explanation.

.

is that to imply from a source or on its own behalf. by chance for its own fruition. how the metaphysical came about.

It is logical to assume that if there is no intelligent design to this universe then the only other possible alternative is that it magically created itself, out of nothing. Since I have been taught the Laws of Physics at an accredited university and received a passing grade then I don't see how that is possible.

If you or anybody else knows how that is possible I would be delighted to hear the explanation.

.
you more or less just repeated what you already posted ...

have you proven there was ever a time matter or energy have not existed. or your's is simply speculation, "out of nothing". - whatever that might be.

- would still be magical to be created out of something to something or more likely - inevitable. or the metaphysical forces which surly is the source.

 

[ding]

No, the physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

The physics have been discovered but we've allowed some bumbling fool's presumptions to limit our previous options. Tesla (among others) embraced infinities because he loved experimenting with them. Dopey Einstein just sat around farting with other's findings, then sludged up physics royally with his ridiculous warped space - time model. Quantum mechanists similarly continue throwing spanners into the works with their false slit experiment conclusions and mistaken thousand flavors of smashed subatomic "particles / waves." What's actually quantized is allowable states of electrical activity (actual "electricity") due to the Aether's (therefore space's and counterspace's) natural geometric limitations and preferred orientations. But I'm just going to stop now and ask myself why I'm talking to you

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Dopey Einstein just sat around farting with other's findings, then sludged up physics royally with his ridiculous warped space - time model.

Which has been confirmed in every way we know to confirm it, and is a pillar of modern cosmology. So... Huh?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Dopey Einstein just sat around farting with other's findings, then sludged up physics royally with his ridiculous warped space - time model.

Which has been confirmed in every way we know to confirm it, and is a pillar of modern cosmology. So... Huh?

Of course the establishment just confirms it. Since his warped box drew such fanfare practically none have been able see a thing differently. Those who do just get laughed at and ignored. No publishing for you. Oh, so sorry, no publications? No job opportunities for you. Tesla immediately just laughed at his foolishness, truly felt sorry for him, and never looked back. The Quantum Key by Aaron Murakami is a good place to start.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Of course the establishment just confirms it.

Uh, no, the evidence all seems to confirm it. It's just a model. Don't take it so personally. You aren't going to envision warped space in 4 dimensions and be forced to accept that perception. It's a mathematical model that yields useful results.

 

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

So you're changing your tune again.

Did you not say the math does not exist?

If it does not exist it cannot be discovered can it?

Exact right triangles are a man made construct. So the math describing them is a man made construct

There is no reason to think the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

Never changed my tune. You take things out of context cause you have nothing else.

I love how hard you are trying to prove this.

Einstein did not invent E=mc^2. He discovered it.

I quoted you verbatim.

And you still deny you said it

Math is a human invention as a way to represent what we see.

You are confusing math and what math was invented to describe.

There is nothing to prove that the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours

 

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

Indeed. Laws are made to be broken and our understanding of the applicable mathematics is always questionable. The math / geometry driving everything has always existed. We've only discovered and made use of bits here and there.. slowly.. long way to go.. 3 steps forward, 2 steps back..

The math didn't exist before there were human to codify it.

I am of the mind that humans are incapable of understanding everything in the universe because our brains are incapable of the intellectual processes required. My dogs will never comprehend prime numbers because their brains are incapable of the thought process necessary. It is not too far a stretch to think our brains have similar limitations

Semantics. You can't appreciate all that your dogs smell and hear. Doesn't mean those additional scents and sounds don't exist. Falling trees do make sounds regardless of whether humans hear them (or dogs for that matter). Math exists similarly. The odds of flipping a disk don't change just because a dolphin is doing it. I say "disk" because I haven't seen dolphins mint any coins yet. Main point being.. geometrically limited probability has always driven everything. Think chirality. Note probability is not strict randomness, but all is math.

I never once said anything about the existence of things I can't sense.

I said I think there are things in the universe that we are incapable of understanding because our brains cannot process the information necessary to understand them just like my dog's brain is incapable of understanding the concept of prime numbers.

Don't confuse math with the things math is used to describe.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Of course the establishment just confirms it.

Uh, no, the evidence all seems to confirm it. It's just a model. Don't take it so personally. You aren't going to envision warped space in 4 dimensions and be forced to accept that perception. It's a mathematical model that yields useful results.

Yes, as a "mathematical model" or oversimplification it's certainly taken the world by storm in terms of being useful for calculations. And of course it works. It all worked before Einstein rearranged things a bit and called it new. He borrowed E = mc^2 straight from Maxwell, ignored the messy bits, then naturally futzed around trying to combine it with E=hv from his buddy, Max Planck. Someone was bound to do it sooner or later. He happened to be well positioned at just the right moment.

What it doesn't mean is that trying to jamb all of physics into fitting his stupid warped vision of space notion has made a lot of sense. To the contrary. Physics now remains FUBAR. We could easily be much further along. But that chunk of potential bomb meat was too mesmerizing. The establishment quickly circled its wagons. The rest is history. And.. they liked it. They loved it! Still can't seem to get enough of it.

The reality is much more elegant. Far simpler in many ways, more complex in some others.. Sad that most will likely never even catch a glimpse.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Don't take it so personally.

I've always taken it personally. Reacted viscerally, just as Aaron Murakami has, since my first exposure to the tons of BS being forwarded as guiding principles in academic physics. Physicists simply need to experiment more and propose BS less. Theorists earn ridicule. Those who've spent a lifetime researching and actually demonstrating a single notion.. cheers.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

Looking back at this again.. what a confused mess. But I find the notion that "infinite densities" pose some problem for math most annoying. We've had calculus since Newton and Leibniz. Easy handing of infinitesimals and infinites was practically the whole point.

 

[Taz]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

So you're changing your tune again.

Did you not say the math does not exist?

If it does not exist it cannot be discovered can it?

Exact right triangles are a man made construct. So the math describing them is a man made construct

There is no reason to think the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

Never changed my tune. You take things out of context cause you have nothing else.

I love how hard you are trying to prove this.

Einstein did not invent E=mc^2. He discovered it.

I quoted you verbatim.

And you still deny you said it

Math is a human invention as a way to represent what we see.

You are confusing math and what math was invented to describe.

There is nothing to prove that the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours

Man discovered math. Man did not invent math. Math is universal. Same for logic, science, music, etc.

 

[ding]

Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

Looking back at this again.. what a confused mess. But I find the notion that "infinite densities" pose some problem for math most annoying. We've had calculus since Newton and Leibniz. Easy handing of infinitesimals and infinites was practically the whole point.

My understanding of why the equations yield infinite densities is that they are running the equations backwards in time to define the limits of the equations. Such that they can say everything forward in time from this point can be modeled with Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and everything at this point in time and prior, cannot be modeled with Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations. But if we think about what is physically happening at that point it's pretty amazing that the equations work as well as they do considering that that point is when all of the remaining post paired annihilation particles are crammed into a very tiny space which is about the size of a proton.

 

[Taz]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.