Genesis 1:6-8

[Aletheia4u]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Firmament means sphere. And so God was saying let a sphere of earth surround all over the waters. And let geysers spring forth from the sphere of earth crust, creating great lakes and rivers on top of the earth crust. And then He said let their be another sphere that separate the dark space from the glow of the earth. And we calls it atmosphere.
In one ancient text, The origin of the world. It said in the beginning. Something happened in the spiritual realm, creating a watery substance like ectoplasma that is known to some to create images, that was suspended in an empty space like a floating bubble. . And this bubble has shown God's reflection hovering around it. But in the center of it was dark. And then God said let their be light. A light appeared in the center of this bubble of water. And then from that light. Solid matter sprang out in all direction from the light that was is the center of the bubble. And once the matter reached the surface of the bubble. It spread around the bubble, covering the watery substance. Then water sprang from the the matter, bringing the watery substance on the surface of the matter. That it saturated the surface, that it created lifeforms from the matter.
And so that is what I perceived from reading Genesis. .

 

[Newtonian]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

That's curious. The Bibles are very clear about obedience and conformance as opposed to human discovery.

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

False. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - Prove all things - KJV

See the Greek here:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

πάντα all (things) δὲ but δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving, τὸ the καλὸν fine (thing) κατέχετε, be YOU holding down,

Isolating the key word: δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving= dokimazete/ to test

From Strong's Greek dictionary:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve:

From abridged Thayer's lexicon:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
Part of Speech: verb

Obviously questioning is involved in testing to see whether something is genuine or not. In English, we might say to prove by documentation.

to be continued

 

[Hollie]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

That's curious. The Bibles are very clear about obedience and conformance as opposed to human discovery.

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

False. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - Prove all things - KJV

See the Greek here:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

πάντα all (things) δὲ but δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving, τὸ the καλὸν fine (thing) κατέχετε, be YOU holding down,

Isolating the key word: δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving= dokimazete/ to test

From Strong's Greek dictionary:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve:

From abridged Thayer's lexicon:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
Part of Speech: verb

Obviously questioning is involved in testing to see whether something is genuine or not. In English, we might say to prove by documentation.

to be continued

You haven't studied your Bible'ology.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Obviously, rigorous questioning is not a requirement in the paradigm of gods.

 

[Newtonian]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Firmament means sphere. And so God was saying let a sphere of earth surround all over the waters. And let geysers spring forth from the sphere of earth crust, creating great lakes and rivers on top of the earth crust. And then He said let their be another sphere that separate the dark space from the glow of the earth. And we calls it atmosphere.
In one ancient text, The origin of the world. It said in the beginning. Something happened in the spiritual realm, creating a watery substance like ectoplasma that is known to some to create images, that was suspended in an empty space like a floating bubble. . And this bubble has shown God's reflection hovering around it. But in the center of it was dark. And then God said let their be light. A light appeared in the center of this bubble of water. And then from that light. Solid matter sprang out in all direction from the light that was is the center of the bubble. And once the matter reached the surface of the bubble. It spread around the bubble, covering the watery substance. Then water sprang from the the matter, bringing the watery substance on the surface of the matter. That it saturated the surface, that it created lifeforms from the matter.
And so that is what I perceived from reading Genesis. .

From where do you get that definition? Just questioning which Hollie claims we think we shouldn't do!

I have already posted detail on this. I will add more now - thank you for inciting me to do more in depth research.

NW ref. footnote on "Heaven" ="or, sky"

The Hebrew word for circle/sphere is chuwg as used in Isaiah 40:22 showing earth is a sphere or appears as a circle from all vantage points. The same word, but as a verb, is used at Job 26:10 showing the division/terminator between light and darkness on earth is a circle, which again proves earth is a sphere. Btw - science only discovered this many centuries later.

The Hebrew word translated expanse/firmament commented on in Albert Barnes notes on the Bible, to wit:

" רקיע rāqı̂ya‛, “expanse;” στερέωμα stereōma, רקע rāqa‛, “spread out by beating, as leaf gold.” This expanse was not understood to be solid, as the fowl is said to fly on the face of it Gen_1:21."

Later in Genesis 1:26 reads "the birds of the heavens" which is the definition of heaven in Genesis 1:6-8 which is what the expanse is called by God.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said: “Let us+ make man in our image,+ according to our likeness,+ and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”+

As our Bible dictionary noted above, some translators say firmament, dome, etc. which reflects the mythical beliefs of the time. However, the Bible contains no mythical beliefs. Here are a few translations that use the scientifically correct translation:

Genesis 1:6
(ERV) Then God said, "Let there be a space to separate the water into two parts!"
(ESV) And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
(LITV) And God said, Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be dividing between the waters and the waters.
(MKJV) And God said, Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
(TLV) Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water! Let it be for separating water from water.”
(TS2009) And Elohim said, “Let an expanse come to be in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
(TLV) Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water! Let it be for separating water from water.”
(TS2009) And Elohim said, “Let an expanse come to be in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
(WEB) God said, “Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”

New Living Translation
Then God said, “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.”

English Standard Version
And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”

Berean Study Bible
And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.”

New American Standard Bible
Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

Christian Standard Bible
Then God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters, separating water from water."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters, separating water from water."

 

[Newtonian]

HYou

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

That's curious. The Bibles are very clear about obedience and conformance as opposed to human discovery.

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

False. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - Prove all things - KJV

See the Greek here:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

πάντα all (things) δὲ but δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving, τὸ the καλὸν fine (thing) κατέχετε, be YOU holding down,

Isolating the key word: δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving= dokimazete/ to test

From Strong's Greek dictionary:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve:

From abridged Thayer's lexicon:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
Part of Speech: verb

Obviously questioning is involved in testing to see whether something is genuine or not. In English, we might say to prove by documentation.

to be continued

You haven't studied your Bible'ology.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Obviously, rigorous questioning is not a requirement in the paradigm of gods.

You haven't studied the Greek text for Hebrews 11:1 - Biblical faith requires "convincing evidence"-

(NW) Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for,+ the evident demonstration* of realities that are not seen.

NW footnote on "evident demonstration": "or, "convincing evidence"

NW ref. footnote:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"“Evident demonstration.” Or, “convincing evidence.” Gr., eʹleg·khos; Lat., ar·gu·menʹtum. Compare Joh 16:8 ftn."

(KJV+) NowG1161 faithG4102 isG2076 the substanceG5287 of things hoped for,G1679 the evidenceG1650 of thingsG4229 notG3756 seen.G991

Thayer's lexicon does have "conviction" as a secondary definition, but the primary definition:

G1650
ἔλεγχος
elegchos
Thayer Definition:
1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested

Thus a different Greek word confirming 1 Thessalonians 5:21 is correct: "Prove all things" - KJV.

Interesting that you chose a verse that proves we should question or test everything for proof/documentation.

See Acts 17:11.

 

[Newtonian]

I meant to include this translation of Genesis 1:6

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith, 'Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.'

So there was an expansion of the mid-heaven where birds fly between the waters on the surface of the cooling planet earth - likely caused by this cooling causing more of the "waters" to condense on the surface. Meanwhile, there was a separation of the condensing waters from the waters above - in effect the upper waters were no longer gravitationally bound to the lower waters. And this is another reason why I personally believe most of the upper waters were rotating like Saturn's rings rather than causing oppressive air ;pressure as on Venus. - which has a pressure 90 times greater than on the surface of the earth. Remember that the current air pressure on earth is 14.7 (<15) pounds per square inch.

Guess what 90 x 15 is! Per square inch!

 

[Hollie]

HYou

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

That's curious. The Bibles are very clear about obedience and conformance as opposed to human discovery.

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

False. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - Prove all things - KJV

See the Greek here:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

πάντα all (things) δὲ but δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving, τὸ the καλὸν fine (thing) κατέχετε, be YOU holding down,

Isolating the key word: δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving= dokimazete/ to test

From Strong's Greek dictionary:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve:

From abridged Thayer's lexicon:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
Part of Speech: verb

Obviously questioning is involved in testing to see whether something is genuine or not. In English, we might say to prove by documentation.

to be continued

You haven't studied your Bible'ology.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Obviously, rigorous questioning is not a requirement in the paradigm of gods.

You haven't studied the Greek text for Hebrews 11:1 - Biblical faith requires "convincing evidence"-

(NW) Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for,+ the evident demonstration* of realities that are not seen.

NW footnote on "evident demonstration": "or, "convincing evidence"

NW ref. footnote:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"“Evident demonstration.” Or, “convincing evidence.” Gr., eʹleg·khos; Lat., ar·gu·menʹtum. Compare Joh 16:8 ftn."

(KJV+) NowG1161 faithG4102 isG2076 the substanceG5287 of things hoped for,G1679 the evidenceG1650 of thingsG4229 notG3756 seen.G991

Thayer's lexicon does have "conviction" as a secondary definition, but the primary definition:

G1650
ἔλεγχος
elegchos
Thayer Definition:
1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested

Thus a different Greek word confirming 1 Thessalonians 5:21 is correct: "Prove all things" - KJV.

Interesting that you chose a verse that proves we should question or test everything for proof/documentation.

See Acts 17:11.

Odd that nothing in what I posted earlier requires anything but belief.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Your rewriting of Bible passages isn't in good form.


John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, …

Hebrews 11:1. 1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not …


I'm just not seeing where the bible commands: The'est shall know that faith alone is not enough. Men in robes and big hats thou'est speak'eth with forked tongue.

 

[Andylusion]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

No. It was a water the surrounded the Earth, separated by air between, and then water on the Earth.

If we assume this was true, then this would clearly explain how carbon dating doesn't match up with the Biblical time line.

Carbon dating relies on C-14, which is caused by cosmic rays hitting nitrogen in the upper atmosphere, which then falls to Earth, is absorbed by plants, which are then eaten by animals, and thus C-14 becomes part of the animals body, and bones. Then those bones when dug up, and tested, you can determine roughly how old the bone is, by how much C-14 is left in the bone.

Of course then requires an assumption that the amount of C-14 in the environment in the past, is stable and comparable to how much C-14 we see in the environment today.

However, if there was a band of water above the Earth, that water would have filtered out cosmic rays, preventing the creation of C-14.

Thus bones from the time near the flood, which also would be logically when many animals would have been buried in a world wide flood... would naturally have little to no C-14 in the bones.

If you go based on the assumption that bones from that time were in an environment that had as much C-14 as today, when in fact there was little to no C-14 in their environment, then you would assume the bones are much much older than they actually are, because you would fine far less C-14 in the bones, than you expected.

 

[Hollie]

I meant to include this translation of Genesis 1:6

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith, 'Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.'

So there was an expansion of the mid-heaven where birds fly between the waters on the surface of the cooling planet earth - likely caused by this cooling causing more of the "waters" to condense on the surface. Meanwhile, there was a separation of the condensing waters from the waters above - in effect the upper waters were no longer gravitationally bound to the lower waters. And this is another reason why I personally believe most of the upper waters were rotating like Saturn's rings rather than causing oppressive air ;pressure as on Venus. - which has a pressure 90 times greater than on the surface of the earth. Remember that the current air pressure on earth is 14.7 (<15) pounds per square inch.

Guess what 90 x 15 is! Per square inch!

Truly a miracle of the science text called the Bible. I'm not sure why anyone would bother with studying the layers of atmosphere or bother with understanding evapotranspiration When we have "firmaments''.

Ok. I give up. What is 90 x your fudge factor of 15?

 

[Newtonian]

I meant to include this translation of Genesis 1:6

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith, 'Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.'

So there was an expansion of the mid-heaven where birds fly between the waters on the surface of the cooling planet earth - likely caused by this cooling causing more of the "waters" to condense on the surface. Meanwhile, there was a separation of the condensing waters from the waters above - in effect the upper waters were no longer gravitationally bound to the lower waters. And this is another reason why I personally believe most of the upper waters were rotating like Saturn's rings rather than causing oppressive air ;pressure as on Venus. - which has a pressure 90 times greater than on the surface of the earth. Remember that the current air pressure on earth is 14.7 (<15) pounds per square inch.

Guess what 90 x 15 is! Per square inch!

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

No. It was a water the surrounded the Earth, separated by air between, and then water on the Earth.

If we assume this was true, then this would clearly explain how carbon dating doesn't match up with the Biblical time line.

Carbon dating relies on C-14, which is caused by cosmic rays hitting nitrogen in the upper atmosphere, which then falls to Earth, is absorbed by plants, which are then eaten by animals, and thus C-14 becomes part of the animals body, and bones. Then those bones when dug up, and tested, you can determine roughly how old the bone is, by how much C-14 is left in the bone.

Of course then requires an assumption that the amount of C-14 in the environment in the past, is stable and comparable to how much C-14 we see in the environment today.

However, if there was a band of water above the Earth, that water would have filtered out cosmic rays, preventing the creation of C-14.

Thus bones from the time near the flood, which also would be logically when many animals would have been buried in a world wide flood... would naturally have little to no C-14 in the bones.

If you go based on the assumption that bones from that time were in an environment that had as much C-14 as today, when in fact there was little to no C-14 in their environment, then you would assume the bones are much much older than they actually are, because you would fine far less C-14 in the bones, than you expected.

That is correct Andylusion. Or, put simply, surface radiation was lower until all the waters rained down on earth. But thank you for the details!

A good cross reference:

2 Peter 3:5,6
For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God;+ 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water.+

Note the phrase "out of water and in the midst of water." I am going offline - but hope to comment further on what those two phrases hint at scientifically and in harmony with Genesis 1:6-8.

 

[Newtonian]

I meant to include this translation of Genesis 1:6

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith, 'Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.'

So there was an expansion of the mid-heaven where birds fly between the waters on the surface of the cooling planet earth - likely caused by this cooling causing more of the "waters" to condense on the surface. Meanwhile, there was a separation of the condensing waters from the waters above - in effect the upper waters were no longer gravitationally bound to the lower waters. And this is another reason why I personally believe most of the upper waters were rotating like Saturn's rings rather than causing oppressive air ;pressure as on Venus. - which has a pressure 90 times greater than on the surface of the earth. Remember that the current air pressure on earth is 14.7 (<15) pounds per square inch.

Guess what 90 x 15 is! Per square inch!

Truly a miracle of the science text called the Bible. I'm not sure why anyone would bother with studying the layers of atmosphere or bother with understanding evapotranspiration When we have "firmaments''.

Ok. I give up. What is 90 x your fudge factor of 15?

Oh, I wish I had 15 pounds of chocalate fudge!

90 x 15 = 1350. The units are pounds per square inch of atmospheric pressure on a planetary surface - in this case 1350 pounds per square inch on Venus.

Rather depressing!

 

[Hollie]

I meant to include this translation of Genesis 1:6

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith, 'Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.'

So there was an expansion of the mid-heaven where birds fly between the waters on the surface of the cooling planet earth - likely caused by this cooling causing more of the "waters" to condense on the surface. Meanwhile, there was a separation of the condensing waters from the waters above - in effect the upper waters were no longer gravitationally bound to the lower waters. And this is another reason why I personally believe most of the upper waters were rotating like Saturn's rings rather than causing oppressive air ;pressure as on Venus. - which has a pressure 90 times greater than on the surface of the earth. Remember that the current air pressure on earth is 14.7 (<15) pounds per square inch.

Guess what 90 x 15 is! Per square inch!

Truly a miracle of the science text called the Bible. I'm not sure why anyone would bother with studying the layers of atmosphere or bother with understanding evapotranspiration When we have "firmaments''.

Ok. I give up. What is 90 x your fudge factor of 15?

Oh, I wish I had 15 pounds of chocalate fudge!

90 x 15 = 1350. The units are pounds per square inch of atmospheric pressure on a planetary surface - in this case 1350 pounds per square inch on Venus.

Rather depressing!

Oh, silly me. I was looking in the Bible for a description of the atmospheric and surface conditions on Venus.

It seems we waste a great deal of money on the NASA Mariner and Explorer spacecraft when we have the Bible.

 

[Aletheia4u]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Firmament means sphere. And so God was saying let a sphere of earth surround all over the waters. And let geysers spring forth from the sphere of earth crust, creating great lakes and rivers on top of the earth crust. And then He said let their be another sphere that separate the dark space from the glow of the earth. And we calls it atmosphere.
In one ancient text, The origin of the world. It said in the beginning. Something happened in the spiritual realm, creating a watery substance like ectoplasma that is known to some to create images, that was suspended in an empty space like a floating bubble. . And this bubble has shown God's reflection hovering around it. But in the center of it was dark. And then God said let their be light. A light appeared in the center of this bubble of water. And then from that light. Solid matter sprang out in all direction from the light that was is the center of the bubble. And once the matter reached the surface of the bubble. It spread around the bubble, covering the watery substance. Then water sprang from the the matter, bringing the watery substance on the surface of the matter. That it saturated the surface, that it created lifeforms from the matter.
And so that is what I perceived from reading Genesis. .

From where do you get that definition? Just questioning which Hollie claims we think we shouldn't do!

I have already posted detail on this. I will add more now - thank you for inciting me to do more in depth research.

NW ref. footnote on "Heaven" ="or, sky"

The Hebrew word for circle/sphere is chuwg as used in Isaiah 40:22 showing earth is a sphere or appears as a circle from all vantage points. The same word, but as a verb, is used at Job 26:10 showing the division/terminator between light and darkness on earth is a circle, which again proves earth is a sphere. Btw - science only discovered this many centuries later.

The Hebrew word translated expanse/firmament commented on in Albert Barnes notes on the Bible, to wit:

" רקיע rāqı̂ya‛, “expanse;” στερέωμα stereōma, רקע rāqa‛, “spread out by beating, as leaf gold.” This expanse was not understood to be solid, as the fowl is said to fly on the face of it Gen_1:21."

Later in Genesis 1:26 reads "the birds of the heavens" which is the definition of heaven in Genesis 1:6-8 which is what the expanse is called by God.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said: “Let us+ make man in our image,+ according to our likeness,+ and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”+

As our Bible dictionary noted above, some translators say firmament, dome, etc. which reflects the mythical beliefs of the time. However, the Bible contains no mythical beliefs. Here are a few translations that use the scientifically correct translation:

Genesis 1:6
(ERV) Then God said, "Let there be a space to separate the water into two parts!"
(ESV) And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
(LITV) And God said, Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be dividing between the waters and the waters.
(MKJV) And God said, Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
(TLV) Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water! Let it be for separating water from water.”
(TS2009) And Elohim said, “Let an expanse come to be in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
(TLV) Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water! Let it be for separating water from water.”
(TS2009) And Elohim said, “Let an expanse come to be in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
(WEB) God said, “Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”

New Living Translation
Then God said, “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.”

English Standard Version
And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”

Berean Study Bible
And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.”

New American Standard Bible
Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

Christian Standard Bible
Then God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters, separating water from water."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters, separating water from water."

Firmament means something like expanse, a layer in between. or area of thickness.
And so in genesis. It was speaking of layers of earth and air. And remember, there is no air or water in space.

A thick or soft expanse or layer of something

What is another word for expanse? | Expanse Synonyms - WordHippo Thesaurus

Synonyms for expanse include field, stretch, breadth, extent, plain, area, range, sweep, reach and spread. Find more similar words at wordhippo.com!

www.wordhippo.com

 

[barn sour]

HYou

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

That's curious. The Bibles are very clear about obedience and conformance as opposed to human discovery.

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

False. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - Prove all things - KJV

See the Greek here:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

πάντα all (things) δὲ but δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving, τὸ the καλὸν fine (thing) κατέχετε, be YOU holding down,

Isolating the key word: δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving= dokimazete/ to test

From Strong's Greek dictionary:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve:

From abridged Thayer's lexicon:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
Part of Speech: verb

Obviously questioning is involved in testing to see whether something is genuine or not. In English, we might say to prove by documentation.

to be continued

You haven't studied your Bible'ology.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Obviously, rigorous questioning is not a requirement in the paradigm of gods.

You haven't studied the Greek text for Hebrews 11:1 - Biblical faith requires "convincing evidence"-

(NW) Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for,+ the evident demonstration* of realities that are not seen.

NW footnote on "evident demonstration": "or, "convincing evidence"

NW ref. footnote:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"“Evident demonstration.” Or, “convincing evidence.” Gr., eʹleg·khos; Lat., ar·gu·menʹtum. Compare Joh 16:8 ftn."

(KJV+) NowG1161 faithG4102 isG2076 the substanceG5287 of things hoped for,G1679 the evidenceG1650 of thingsG4229 notG3756 seen.G991

Thayer's lexicon does have "conviction" as a secondary definition, but the primary definition:

G1650
ἔλεγχος
elegchos
Thayer Definition:
1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested

Thus a different Greek word confirming 1 Thessalonians 5:21 is correct: "Prove all things" - KJV.

Interesting that you chose a verse that proves we should question or test everything for proof/documentation.

See Acts 17:11.

Odd that nothing in what I posted earlier requires anything but belief.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Your rewriting of Bible passages isn't in good form.


John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, …

Hebrews 11:1. 1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not …


I'm just not seeing where the bible commands: The'est shall know that faith alone is not enough. Men in robes and big hats thou'est speak'eth with forked tongue.

Hollie is cherry picking verses.
Newtonian has given other verses.
Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself, then it's imperative that the verses you each have quoted be taken in context. God did NOT want us to be simple minded sheep, as Hollie seems to claim the Bible teaches. It teaches no such thing.

 

[Hollie]

HYou

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

That's curious. The Bibles are very clear about obedience and conformance as opposed to human discovery.

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

False. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - Prove all things - KJV

See the Greek here:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

πάντα all (things) δὲ but δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving, τὸ the καλὸν fine (thing) κατέχετε, be YOU holding down,

Isolating the key word: δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving= dokimazete/ to test

From Strong's Greek dictionary:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve:

From abridged Thayer's lexicon:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
Part of Speech: verb

Obviously questioning is involved in testing to see whether something is genuine or not. In English, we might say to prove by documentation.

to be continued

You haven't studied your Bible'ology.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Obviously, rigorous questioning is not a requirement in the paradigm of gods.

You haven't studied the Greek text for Hebrews 11:1 - Biblical faith requires "convincing evidence"-

(NW) Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for,+ the evident demonstration* of realities that are not seen.

NW footnote on "evident demonstration": "or, "convincing evidence"

NW ref. footnote:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"“Evident demonstration.” Or, “convincing evidence.” Gr., eʹleg·khos; Lat., ar·gu·menʹtum. Compare Joh 16:8 ftn."

(KJV+) NowG1161 faithG4102 isG2076 the substanceG5287 of things hoped for,G1679 the evidenceG1650 of thingsG4229 notG3756 seen.G991

Thayer's lexicon does have "conviction" as a secondary definition, but the primary definition:

G1650
ἔλεγχος
elegchos
Thayer Definition:
1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested

Thus a different Greek word confirming 1 Thessalonians 5:21 is correct: "Prove all things" - KJV.

Interesting that you chose a verse that proves we should question or test everything for proof/documentation.

See Acts 17:11.

Odd that nothing in what I posted earlier requires anything but belief.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Your rewriting of Bible passages isn't in good form.


John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, …

Hebrews 11:1. 1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not …


I'm just not seeing where the bible commands: The'est shall know that faith alone is not enough. Men in robes and big hats thou'est speak'eth with forked tongue.

Hollie is cherry picking verses.
Newtonian has given other verses.
Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself, then it's imperative that the verses you each have quoted be taken in context. God did NOT want us to be simple minded sheep, as Hollie seems to claim the Bible teaches. It teaches no such thing.

Hollie is countering the the verses posted by others. You may be offended by what is in the Bibles that is counter to what you would prefer, but that's a contradiction you need to resolve with the ideology.

Hollie can only make judgements about what the Bibles teach based upon what is in the Bibles. So yes, the shepherd and the sheep is an analogy that implies submission of those ruled to a ruling authority.

And yes, the Bible is contradictory.

 

[barn sour]

HYou

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

That's curious. The Bibles are very clear about obedience and conformance as opposed to human discovery.

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

False. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - Prove all things - KJV

See the Greek here:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

πάντα all (things) δὲ but δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving, τὸ the καλὸν fine (thing) κατέχετε, be YOU holding down,

Isolating the key word: δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving= dokimazete/ to test

From Strong's Greek dictionary:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve:

From abridged Thayer's lexicon:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
Part of Speech: verb

Obviously questioning is involved in testing to see whether something is genuine or not. In English, we might say to prove by documentation.

to be continued

You haven't studied your Bible'ology.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Obviously, rigorous questioning is not a requirement in the paradigm of gods.

You haven't studied the Greek text for Hebrews 11:1 - Biblical faith requires "convincing evidence"-

(NW) Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for,+ the evident demonstration* of realities that are not seen.

NW footnote on "evident demonstration": "or, "convincing evidence"

NW ref. footnote:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"“Evident demonstration.” Or, “convincing evidence.” Gr., eʹleg·khos; Lat., ar·gu·menʹtum. Compare Joh 16:8 ftn."

(KJV+) NowG1161 faithG4102 isG2076 the substanceG5287 of things hoped for,G1679 the evidenceG1650 of thingsG4229 notG3756 seen.G991

Thayer's lexicon does have "conviction" as a secondary definition, but the primary definition:

G1650
ἔλεγχος
elegchos
Thayer Definition:
1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested

Thus a different Greek word confirming 1 Thessalonians 5:21 is correct: "Prove all things" - KJV.

Interesting that you chose a verse that proves we should question or test everything for proof/documentation.

See Acts 17:11.

Odd that nothing in what I posted earlier requires anything but belief.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Your rewriting of Bible passages isn't in good form.


John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, …

Hebrews 11:1. 1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not …


I'm just not seeing where the bible commands: The'est shall know that faith alone is not enough. Men in robes and big hats thou'est speak'eth with forked tongue.

Hollie is cherry picking verses.
Newtonian has given other verses.
Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself, then it's imperative that the verses you each have quoted be taken in context. God did NOT want us to be simple minded sheep, as Hollie seems to claim the Bible teaches. It teaches no such thing.

Hollie is countering the the verses posted by others. You may be offended by what is in the Bibles that is counter to what you would prefer, but that's a contradiction you need to resolve with the ideology.

Hollie can only make judgements about what the Bibles teach based upon what is in the Bibles. So yes, the shepherd and the sheep is an analogy that implies submission of those ruled to a ruling authority.

And yes, the Bible is contradictory.

You're an unbeliever trying to make sense of the Bible. That's simply not possible.

You not only cherry pick, but you also twist Scripture. The Bible doesn't say, I am the shepherd and you are like sheep. So not only are you adding to scripture, but you're totally without understanding.

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of ISRAEL, and isn't talking about a ruling authority at all.

 

[DOTR]

Very interesting. I think these are the questions that we will never have answers to

You absolutely will...some day.

 

[DOTR]

HYou

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

That's curious. The Bibles are very clear about obedience and conformance as opposed to human discovery.

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

False. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - Prove all things - KJV

See the Greek here:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

πάντα all (things) δὲ but δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving, τὸ the καλὸν fine (thing) κατέχετε, be YOU holding down,

Isolating the key word: δοκιμάζετε, be YOU proving= dokimazete/ to test

From Strong's Greek dictionary:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
dok-im-ad'-zo
From G1384; to test (literally or figuratively); by implication to approve:

From abridged Thayer's lexicon:

G1381
δοκιμάζω
dokimazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy
Part of Speech: verb

Obviously questioning is involved in testing to see whether something is genuine or not. In English, we might say to prove by documentation.

to be continued

You haven't studied your Bible'ology.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Obviously, rigorous questioning is not a requirement in the paradigm of gods.

You haven't studied the Greek text for Hebrews 11:1 - Biblical faith requires "convincing evidence"-

(NW) Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for,+ the evident demonstration* of realities that are not seen.

NW footnote on "evident demonstration": "or, "convincing evidence"

NW ref. footnote:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"“Evident demonstration.” Or, “convincing evidence.” Gr., eʹleg·khos; Lat., ar·gu·menʹtum. Compare Joh 16:8 ftn."

(KJV+) NowG1161 faithG4102 isG2076 the substanceG5287 of things hoped for,G1679 the evidenceG1650 of thingsG4229 notG3756 seen.G991

Thayer's lexicon does have "conviction" as a secondary definition, but the primary definition:

G1650
ἔλεγχος
elegchos
Thayer Definition:
1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested

Thus a different Greek word confirming 1 Thessalonians 5:21 is correct: "Prove all things" - KJV.

Interesting that you chose a verse that proves we should question or test everything for proof/documentation.

See Acts 17:11.

Odd that nothing in what I posted earlier requires anything but belief.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we live by faith, not by sight."

James 1:6 "But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Your rewriting of Bible passages isn't in good form.


John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:10. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, …

Hebrews 11:1. 1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not …


I'm just not seeing where the bible commands: The'est shall know that faith alone is not enough. Men in robes and big hats thou'est speak'eth with forked tongue.

Hollie is cherry picking verses.
Newtonian has given other verses.
Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself, then it's imperative that the verses you each have quoted be taken in context. God did NOT want us to be simple minded sheep, as Hollie seems to claim the Bible teaches. It teaches no such thing.

Hollie is countering the the verses posted by others. You may be offended by what is in the Bibles that is counter to what you would prefer, but that's a contradiction you need to resolve with the ideology.

Hollie can only make judgements about what the Bibles teach based upon what is in the Bibles. So yes, the shepherd and the sheep is an analogy that implies submission of those ruled to a ruling authority.

And yes, the Bible is contradictory.

Hollie is another Puritan atheist thumping a Bible. That’s all.

 

[DOTR]

Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.”

Now why would God “extol” us in Elizabethan English?
I doubt I have seen such a narrow mind outside Penelope and Lysistrata

 

[DOTR]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

By the heavens it just meant the sky. The waters a above are obviously rain. No explanation needed for the waters below. But in ancient cosmologies their was more than one of what were called “heavens”. The first was the atmosphere. The second was beyond that...the celestial heaven of space....and the third was Gods Heaven.
Paul says he was caught up to the “third heaven” (at least it seems to be Paul).