Genesis 1:6-8

[deorro 1]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

 

[harmonica]

..it can be anything you want

 

[occupied]

The ancients thought of the sky as a dome where everything, stars, planets ect. were just a little higher than the highest mountains.

 

[there4eyeM]

Metaphorical explanations for an age and minds that needed answers that were otherwise impossible to provide.
Not very complicated, unless we make it so.

 

[Newtonian]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

 

[Mello711]

Very interesting. I think these are the questions that we will never have answers to

 

[Newtonian]

Very interesting. I think these are the questions that we will never have answers to

I know the quote was long so you may have missed the point about the accretion of water as vapor by the early condition of planet earth - note models by scientists of the formation of our planet.

It can be complex when considered in detail - but simply:

Earth started out hot. Even with the heavy CO2 (carbon dioxide) atmosphere (deduced from earth's crustal carbonates produced by the geologic carbon cycle) the surface was originally too hot for liquid water even under this very high atmospheric pressure. But by the time of Genesis 1:2 hot liquid water covered the surface of the planet - otherwise the geologic carbon cycle, which requires oceans of liquid water, could not have proceeded.

But as the CO2 was removed by the oceans, atmospheric pressure lowered such that the critical condensation/evaporation point was breached - probably more than once. In Genesis 1:6-8 the liquid waters on earth's surface (now still cooler) separated from the water vapor above.

[edit: Saturn's rings are frozen. Earth's upper atmosphere (above the thermosphere) is very cold. The evidence of quick freezing of animals (mammoths, etc.) in the arctic permafrost is consistent with supercooled water - not hot water vapor. In the area of the thermosphere the waters would have been vapor - but above the atmosphere/expanse it is very cold - the rotating waters would either have been ice or supercooled water or both. If those waters were supported by the atmosphere, earth's surface air pressure would not have allowed life as we know it to exist on the surface of earth - most of the waters had to have been rotating.]

Likely much of this water was so high up that it ended up rotating (cp. Saturn's rings). The expansion indicated by the Hebrew word caused the atmosphere/espanse to be in between the surface waters and the waters above the atmosphere (likely mostly in orbit).

I can explain in more detail if you would like me to.

Btw - Like Newton (my user namesake), I seek (and find) harmony between science and the Bible.

Note -as per my quote - the beating down of the raqia/expanse/firm... is consistent with the extreme surface pressure of the early CO2 atmosphere.

 

[Mello711]

Very interesting. I think these are the questions that we will never have answers to

I know the quote was long so you may have missed the point about the accretion of water as vapor by the early condition of planet earth - note models by scientists of the formation of our planet.

It can be complex when considered in detail - but simply:

Earth started out hot. Even with the heavy CO2 (carbon dioxide) atmosphere (deduced from earth's crustal carbonates produced by the geologic carbon cycle) the surface was originally too hot for liquid water even under this very high atmospheric pressure. But by the time of Genesis 1:2 hot liquid water covered the surface of the planet - otherwise the geologic carbon cycle, which requires oceans of liquid water, could not have proceeded.

But as the CO2 was removed by the oceans, atmospheric pressure lowered such that the critical condensation/evaporation point was breached - probably more than once. In Genesis 1:6-8 the liquid waters on earth's surface (now still cooler) separated from the water vapor above.

Likely much of this water was so high up that it ended up rotating (cp. Saturn's rings). The expansion indicated by the Hebrew word caused the atmosphere/espanse to be in between the surface waters and the waters above the atmosphere (likely mostly in orbit).

I can explain in more detail if you would like me to.

Btw - Like Newton (my user namesake), I seek (and find) harmony between science and the Bible

Yes please. More detail would be great

 

[Newtonian]

Very interesting. I think these are the questions that we will never have answers to

I know the quote was long so you may have missed the point about the accretion of water as vapor by the early condition of planet earth - note models by scientists of the formation of our planet.

It can be complex when considered in detail - but simply:

Earth started out hot. Even with the heavy CO2 (carbon dioxide) atmosphere (deduced from earth's crustal carbonates produced by the geologic carbon cycle) the surface was originally too hot for liquid water even under this very high atmospheric pressure. But by the time of Genesis 1:2 hot liquid water covered the surface of the planet - otherwise the geologic carbon cycle, which requires oceans of liquid water, could not have proceeded.

But as the CO2 was removed by the oceans, atmospheric pressure lowered such that the critical condensation/evaporation point was breached - probably more than once. In Genesis 1:6-8 the liquid waters on earth's surface (now still cooler) separated from the water vapor above.

Likely much of this water was so high up that it ended up rotating (cp. Saturn's rings). The expansion indicated by the Hebrew word caused the atmosphere/espanse to be in between the surface waters and the waters above the atmosphere (likely mostly in orbit).

I can explain in more detail if you would like me to.

Btw - Like Newton (my user namesake), I seek (and find) harmony between science and the Bible

Yes please. More detail would be great

More would have to include the math involved, for one example. But the math can only be as accurate as the numbers used. So, for example, the amount of carbon in earth's crustal carbonates is about the same as the amount of carbon in the CO2 atmosphere of Venus at this time. So earth's crustal carbonates were deposited as a result of the primordial oceans absorbing CO2 as a result of the geologic carbon cycle which essentially means that early earth had about as much CO2 in its atmosphere as Venus does today, which therefore also means that earth's surface air pressure was about the same as Venus today. About 3.5+ billion years before the first creative day (likely thousands of years long each) Genesis 1:2 says God's spirit was going to and fro over the surface of earth's hot primordial waters in darkness under atmospheric pressure. [the heat and pressure are determined scientifically - the darkness and covering of the earth with water is stated in the verse.]

The Bible doesn't say what God's spirit was doing - but it seems likely it was creating life. If so, the first life on this planet would have been the extremophiles currently living by deep ocean hot thermal vents under great water pressure. Remember, this was long before Genesis 1:6-8 applies, but the decrease in atmospheric pressure along with the decrease in the temperature of the surface of earth's crust set the stage for the separating of the waters in Genesis 1:6-8.

But, as I said, for accuracy one needs the accurate numbers involved and many, including many scientists, ignore the clues found currently in earth's crustal carbonates, in/on hot Venus as well as Saturn's cold rings. In my next post I will try to document the numbers involved:

 

[Newtonian]

So, for starters - documenting the actual amount of carbon is earth's crustal carbonates estimated in the Britannica article on the evolution of earth's atmosphere:

Evolution of the atmosphere - Biological Carbon Cycle

Evolution of the atmosphere - Biological Carbon Cycle: The biological processes of photosynthesis and respiration mediate the exchange of carbon between the atmosphere or hydrosphere and the biosphere, In these reactions, CH2O crudely represents organic material, the biomass of bacteria...

www.britannica.com

This chart shows the amount of carbon in earth's crustal carbonates compared with other examples of carbon content:

form	total amount (Pg* C)
*One Pg (abbreviation for petagram) equals one quadrillion (1015) grams. Entries refer to amounts of carbon.
atmospheric CO (as of 1978)	696
oceanic carbon dioxide, bicarbonate ion, and carbonate ion	34,800
limestones, other carbonate sediments	64,800,000
carbonate in metamorphic rocks	2,640,000
total biomass	594
organic carbon in ocean water	996
organic carbon in soils	2,064
organic carbon in sedimentary rocks	12,000,000
organic carbon in metamorphic rocks	3,480,000

Notice the huge amount of carbon in carbonate sediments mostly in the form of Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) as in Limestone - over 64 million petagrams! By comparison earth's current (1978) carbon content of CO2 in the atmosphere is only 696 petagrams while the ocean's carbon content in dissolved CO2, and the oceans carbonate (CO3) ion and bicarbonate ion (HCO3) is 34,800 petagrams.

Remember, the carbon in earth's oceans is in the midst of the geologic carbon cycle which removes CO2 from the air and deposits it into earth's sediments - notably limestone (CaCO3) and Calcite (CaCO3) in other minerals.

Important to note, though off topic, is that the geologic carbon cycle has lowered the current global warming or we would already be in catastrophe because earth's surface species cannot adapt that fast - even now many species are in danger of extinction due to global warming. On the other hand, deep ocean extremophiles (e.g. tube worms) are in no such danger.

On topic, young earth creationists fail to take into account the speed of the geologic carbon cycle - it takes thousands of years, not just a week of days, for this cycle to deposit large amounts of carbonate - and likely billions of years to account for all of earth's crustal carbonates.

Thank Jehovah planet earth has been fine tuned or earth would be like Venus today - no life can exist on the surface of Venus! More on Venus in my next post:

 

[there4eyeM]

What has been proven by observation (so far) is that life exists where it can and doesn't where it can't. Ascribing more to this observation is speculation.

 

[Newtonian]

I already researched this - but I am re-researching right now - from:

Venus atmosphere, mainly composed of carbon dioxide and nitrogen

Venus' atmospheric composition in percentages show 96,5% of carbon dioxide and less than 3,5% of N2.

www.aeronomie.be

"Carbon dioxide (CO2, 96,5 %) and nitrogen (N2, less than 3,5%) already represent more than 99,9% of the composition.

Scientists also discovered minor molecular constituents such as H2, O2, Kr, H2O, H2S and COS in Venus' atmosphere.

Water vapour is present in extremely low quantities (about 30 parts per million or ppm, 1 ppm = 0.001 %), making Venus the driest planet of the solar system."

"
Chemical composition of the atmosphere of Venus
In the cloud layer, sulphur dioxide (SO2) and water (H2O) in both solid and gaseous state are present, as well as sulphuric acid (H2SO4) in liquid state. Carbon dioxide still dominates.

Element or molecule	Percentage in the lower atmosphere (below the clouds)​
Carbon dioxide	96.5 %​
Nitrogen	Less than 3.5 %​
Sulphur dioxide	0.015 %​
Argon	0.007 %​
Water vapour	0.002 %​
Carbon Monoxide	0.0017 %​
Helium	0.0012 %​
Oxygen	0.001 %​
Neon	0.0007 %​

The higher atmosphere consists primarily of carbon dioxide (more than 96 %). There are also traces of molecular nitrogen (N2) and carbon monoxide (CO).
We can wonder why there is so much more CO2 in Venus’ atmosphere compared to that of the Earth. Carbon dioxide was certainly more abundant in the past than it is now. With time, it has dissolved in the seas and migrated into rocks, so that nowadays there is less in the atmosphere.

Last update on 04/20/2018"​

Again, thank God for the fine tuning of earth so that while Venus' primordial carbonates were vaporized as CO2 in a catastrophic feedback loop yet on earth the exact opposite has happened! Scientists warn that earth could have the same catastrophe if global warming is allowed to reach a crucial tipping point. [see warnings by Greta Thunberg] Thankfully, Revelation 11:18 states God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth so that we can live on earth forever as stated in Psalms 37:29 (compare Ps.37:10,11 quoted by Jesus at Matthew 5:5: "the meek shall inherit the earth")

to be continued.

 

[Newtonian]

What has been proven by observation (so far) is that life exists where it can and doesn't where it can't. Ascribing more to this observation is speculation.

True, but overly simplistic. Scientific observation tells us so much more! Thank God we will have the joy of discovery forever!

What I am posting is not speculation. The over 64 million petagrams of carbon in earth's crustal carbonates deposited by the geologic carbon cycle is not speculation - it is a fact ignored by evolutionists and young earth creationists.

Thankfully - many scientists do not share your negative assessment of current scientific research. But you are not alone in your feelings.

One of the problems with current popular science models is specialization. For one example, some astronomers ignoring the evidence from geology and earth science as to the early earth's temperature.

The invitation for us earthlings in Romans 1:20 to learn more about God by the study of "the things made" involves all branches of scientific study. For example, I am posting evidence from such different fields of scientific research as chemistry, astronomy, earth science, planetary geology, the study of minerals, atmospheric science, meteorology and many other fields of scientific research. One reason I love the Bible and science - the joy of discovery from Biblical and scientific research - and the humility to change beliefs when accurate observations demand it.

Note: the study of earth's minerals demonstrates how Oxygen is the most abundant element in earth's crust (a fact ignored by chemical evolutionists) and chemistry, volcanology and geology reveals how this happened along with other sciences.

 

[Hollie]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

 

[Hollie]

So, for starters - documenting the actual amount of carbon is earth's crustal carbonates estimated in the Britannica article on the evolution of earth's atmosphere:

Evolution of the atmosphere - Biological Carbon Cycle

Evolution of the atmosphere - Biological Carbon Cycle: The biological processes of photosynthesis and respiration mediate the exchange of carbon between the atmosphere or hydrosphere and the biosphere, In these reactions, CH2O crudely represents organic material, the biomass of bacteria...

www.britannica.com

This chart shows the amount of carbon in earth's crustal carbonates compared with other examples of carbon content:

form	total amount (Pg* C)
*One Pg (abbreviation for petagram) equals one quadrillion (1015) grams. Entries refer to amounts of carbon.
atmospheric CO (as of 1978)	696
oceanic carbon dioxide, bicarbonate ion, and carbonate ion	34,800
limestones, other carbonate sediments	64,800,000
carbonate in metamorphic rocks	2,640,000
total biomass	594
organic carbon in ocean water	996
organic carbon in soils	2,064
organic carbon in sedimentary rocks	12,000,000
organic carbon in metamorphic rocks	3,480,000

Notice the huge amount of carbon in carbonate sediments mostly in the form of Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) as in Limestone - over 64 million petagrams! By comparison earth's current (1978) carbon content of CO2 in the atmosphere is only 696 petagrams while the ocean's carbon content in dissolved CO2, and the oceans carbonate (CO3) ion and bicarbonate ion (HCO3) is 34,800 petagrams.

Remember, the carbon in earth's oceans is in the midst of the geologic carbon cycle which removes CO2 from the air and deposits it into earth's sediments - notably limestone (CaCO3) and Calcite (CaCO3) in other minerals.

Important to note, though off topic, is that the geologic carbon cycle has lowered the current global warming or we would already be in catastrophe because earth's surface species cannot adapt that fast - even now many species are in danger of extinction due to global warming. On the other hand, deep ocean extremophiles (e.g. tube worms) are in no such danger.

On topic, young earth creationists fail to take into account the speed of the geologic carbon cycle - it takes thousands of years, not just a week of days, for this cycle to deposit large amounts of carbonate - and likely billions of years to account for all of earth's crustal carbonates.

Thank Jehovah planet earth has been fine tuned or earth would be like Venus today - no life can exist on the surface of Venus! More on Venus in my next post:

Why did the gods include tornadoes, earthquakes, etc. in their "fine tuning''?

 

[Newtonian]

Ok, back to Venus - from:

Venus: The Atmosphere, Climate, Surface, Interior and Near-Space Environment of an Earth-Like Planet - Space Science Reviews

This is a review of current knowledge about Earth’s nearest planetary neighbour and near twin, Venus. Such knowledge has recently been extended by the European Venus Express and the Japanese Akatsuki spacecraft in orbit around the planet; these missions and their achievements are concisely...

link.springer.com

Excerpts:

"Venus is the closest planet to the Earth, not only in distance but also in size and mass. With a radius about 5% smaller, the uncompressed density of Venus works out to be nearly the same as Earth’s (Table 1), implying a similar structure and composition for the body of both planets. However, Venus has a much more massive atmosphere than its terrestrial sibling, with a surface pressure about 90 times higher and a composition predominantly of carbon dioxide, which is a minor constituent on the Earth."

"Despite increasingly sensitive measurements, there is still no sign of a planetary magnetic field, but the field induced by the solar wind interaction with the planet and its ionosphere has now been investigated and the escape rates for ions accelerated by various mechanisms have been estimated. Remarkably, these include not only hydrogen and helium as expected, but also oxygen at a rate roughly half that of hydrogen, with obvious implications for the loss of water from Venus over time."

[So, Venus may also have had much more water (H2O) though it is the dryest planet in the solar system now. Earth's magnetic field is another example of the fine tuning of planet earth. Thank Jehovah that earth did not turn out like Venus!]

"Clearly, higher-resolution radar imaging and more extensive coverage were needed to find out whether Venus was Earth-like, or like the smaller, one-plate terrestrial planets with ancient surfaces. When Venera 15 and 16 surveyed the northern hemisphere of Venus with 1–2 km radar imaging resolution they found additional evidence for the existence of Earth-like features on Venus, despite the fundamental difference in hypsometry. One of the highland regions, Beta Regio, is characterised by a rift zone, surmounted by volcanoes, while another, Ishtar Terra, is surrounded by multiple parallel linear features analogous to Earth’s folded mountain belts. Many of the highlands consist of ancient, very highly deformed terrain, named tessera because of its tile-like nature. The similarity between the morphologies of Venus trough-and-ridge tessera and the earth’s ocean floor has been noted (Head 1990)."

in other words. Venus may have been earthlike in ancient times. including perhaps covered with water (Genesis 1:2, 6-8).

There is much more in this article - if any of you are interested in this branch of scientific study, see the link! I am out of time for now and going offline - take care you all!

Social distancing, masks or the safest: shelter in place (Proverbs 22:3).

 

[Newtonian]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

 

[zaangalewa]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Water is formless matter - if it is in form then it is living matter. So indeed it could be two forms of living spheres - combined by water - the substance of life - but seperated by spirit - the essence of life.

 

[Hollie]

"6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."


The firmament. Solid matter. An extended expanse. Heaven. Visible sky. To divide the 'waters above from the waters below'.

This 'Heaven', in the Hebrew language, is rarely used together with 'angels'.. [angels of Heaven], [Kingdom of Heaven; where The Father Is], etc...

could this extended expanse be the other planets which divide the 'waters above from the waters below'?

Good question Deoro! See our Bible dictionary under "expanse" here:

Expanse — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

I normally don't cut and paste whole articles, but in this case, I could not choose what to quote - so here is the whole context:

"EXPANSE
Concerning the second creative period, or “day,” Genesis 1:6-8 states: “And God went on to say: ‘Let an expanse [Heb., ra·qiʹaʽ] come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.” Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in “the expanse of the heavens,” and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth “upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.”—Ge 1:14, 15, 17, 20.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro; Fn; Yg; An; NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond; Ostervald [French]).
Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
While it is true that the root word (ra·qaʽʹ) from which ra·qiʹaʽ is drawn is regularly used in the sense of “beating out” something solid, whether by hand, by foot, or by any instrument (compare Ex 39:3; Eze 6:11), in some cases it is not sound reasoning to rule out a figurative use of the word. Thus at Job 37:18 Elihu asks concerning God: “With him can you beat out [tar·qiʹaʽ] the skies hard like a molten mirror?” That the literal beating out of some solid celestial vault is not meant can be seen from the fact that the word “skies” here comes from a word (shaʹchaq) also rendered “film of dust” or “clouds” (Isa 40:15; Ps 18:11), and in view of the nebulous quality of that which is ‘beaten out,’ it is clear that the Bible writer is only figuratively comparing the skies to a metal mirror whose burnished face gives off a bright reflection.—Compare Da 12:3.
So, too, with the “expanse” produced on the second creative “day,” no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It thus describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also accords with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
That the Hebrew writers of the Bible did not conceive of the sky as originally formed of burnished metal is evident from the warning given through Moses to Israel that, in the event of their disobedience to God, “Your skies that are over your head must also become copper, and the earth that is beneath you iron,” thus metaphorically describing the effects of intense heat and severe drought upon the skies and land of Israel.—De 28:23, 24.
Similarly, it is obvious that the ancient Hebrews held no pagan concept as to the existence of literal “windows” in the arch of the sky through which earth’s rain descended. Very accurately and scientifically the writer of Job quotes Elihu in describing the process by which rain clouds are formed when he states, at Job 36:27, 28: “For he draws up the drops of water; they filter as rain for his mist, so that the clouds [shecha·qimʹ] trickle, they drip upon mankind abundantly.” Likewise, the expression “floodgates [ʼarub·bothʹ] of the heavens” clearly manifests a figurative expression.—Compare Ge 7:11; 2Ki 7:1, 2, 19; Mal 3:10; see also Pr 3:20; Isa 5:6; 45:8; Jer 10:13.
In his vision of heavenly arrangements, Ezekiel describes “the likeness of an expanse like the sparkle of awesome ice” over the heads of the four living creatures. The account is filled with figurative expressions.—Eze 1:22-26; 10:1.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts.
In the Psalms “the expanse,” along with “the heavens,” is said to tell of God’s works and praise.—Ps 19:1."

Just curious. As opposed to the need for these rather... how shall we say... "creative and circuitous explanations" for the natural world, why couldn't the gods give us a clear explanation?

Why couldn't the gods have required final editing rights to the bibles and included: "verily we say the weight of all the air surrounding earth is thus 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (The World Book Encyclopedia of the gods, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere.''

Just curious - really? The reason we were not told in detail all of this is the joy of discovery. It is an evidence of Jehovah's love for us. We will have the joy of discovery forever!

Ecclesiastes 3:9-13
What does the worker gain from all his efforts?+ 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of men to keep them occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful* in its time.+ He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish.
12 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life,+ 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.+

The joy of discovery though hard work (as in Venus probes) and research is a loving gift of God!

One reason for my user name, btw!

That's curious. The Bibles are very clear about obedience and conformance as opposed to human discovery.

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

 

[zaangalewa]

...
Few religionists, even the most fundamentalist of religionists are very closely connected to the realities of science and knowledge. Their foundational beliefs can usually be found elsewhere in the form of their religion. The various creation ministries are usually able to promote to religionists whatever propaganda they choose, put whatever spin they prefer on their falsified claims because they have an audience that is primarily ''sold'' on the dogma that the ministries are preaching.

An interesting atheistic "dogmatism". But the christian religion (rebound in god) is not an ideology and fundamentally truth is always true, wherever we find it - in science as well as in politics or in religions. In all human activities it is good to use rationality and love.