Free will/time is fixed conundrum

[Slade3200]

Religion and science seem to agree, everything is fixed. My post was meant to happen, your response as well.

Was your post and his response supposed to happen exactly like it did in a singular event or did it happen in one of the infinite possibilities of events that may all be happening at once?

A problem with the multiple timeline/multiple universe theory is where does the new mass and energy for each new timeline/universe come from?

It comes from infinity

 

[onefour1]

That is the same question as the following but put a different way.

If God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being, why didn't he simply choose to create us to be perfect just like himself?

If he is all powerful, surely he had the power to do it. If he is all knowing, surely he had the knowledge of how to do it. Finally, if he is all loving, then he certainly would have loved us enough to give us perfection. So why didn't God simply create us to be perfect like himself?

I was asked this question by a professor I had back in college. It took me awhile but I believe I have found the true answer.

What is the true answer?

I apologize but I have just taken with a sickness which has me in chills and throwing up. I will try to get to this tomorrow if feeling better. If not, I will answer as soon as possible. Sorry!

 

[lg325]

If all is predetermined ,God is not Omnipotent because God cant change it . In a predetermined universe maybe God has given his children Free Will . Which would be proof of Gods Omnipotent .

 

[JoeMoma]

If all is predetermined ,God is not Omnipotent because God cant change it . In a predetermined universe maybe God has given his children Free Will . Which would be proof of Gods Omnipotent .

It is predetermined by God meaning he is the only one who can change it....if he wants to.

 

[onefour1]

That is the same question as the following but put a different way.

If God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being, why didn't he simply choose to create us to be perfect just like himself?

If he is all powerful, surely he had the power to do it. If he is all knowing, surely he had the knowledge of how to do it. Finally, if he is all loving, then he certainly would have loved us enough to give us perfection. So why didn't God simply create us to be perfect like himself?

I was asked this question by a professor I had back in college. It took me awhile but I believe I have found the true answer.

What is the true answer?

What I have found is that if you really take a look at the attribute "all powerful", it doesn't mean having absolute power to do anything imaginable. For example, does God have the power to have never existed and yet exist? Surely if you have absolute power and can do anything imaginable, God should be able to do this. However, I find this to be absurd. Can God be absolutely evil and at the same time be absolutely good? I don't think God can do that. But, if God were all powerful in the sense that he can do absolutely anything imaginable, then he should be able to do it. My point is that God being all powerful does not mean that he has absolute power to do anything imaginable. So I would modify the meaning of God being all powerful to say that God is all powerful in the sense that he can do all things that are possible for Him to do in eternity. Man does not have the knowledge of all that is possible. However, God possesses this knowledge and is able to do all that is possible. In other words, there are things that are eternally impossible even for God. Would you not agree?

(to be continued)

 

[JoeMoma]

What I have found is that if you really take a look at the attribute "all powerful", it doesn't mean having absolute power to do anything imaginable. For example, does God have the power to have never existed and yet exist? Surely if you have absolute power and can do anything imaginable, God should be able to do this. However, I find this to be absurd. Can God be absolutely evil and at the same time be absolutely good? I don't think God can do that. But, if God were all powerful in the sense that he can do absolutely anything imaginable, then he should be able to do it. My point is that God being all powerful does not mean that he has absolute power to do anything imaginable. So I would modify the meaning of God being all powerful to say that God is all powerful in the sense that he can do all things that are possible for Him to do in eternity. Man does not have the knowledge of all that is possible. However, God possesses this knowledge and is able to do all that is possible. In other words, there are things that are eternally impossible even for God. Would you not agree?

No

 

[onefour1]

please explain.

 

[JoeMoma]

please explain.

What I have found is that if you really take a look at the attribute "all powerful", it doesn't mean having absolute power to do anything imaginable. For example, does God have the power to have never existed and yet exist?

To exist, but never exist are mutually exclusive such that it would be nonsensical to propose that being all powerful would be able to make such a contradiction possible.


The question that your professor asked (which I paraphrase) is if God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving being, why didn't he create us to be perfect like himself? There is no paradox to this question that makes it impossible. God being able to create us perfect does fall under being all powerful. If God did not have the ability to make us perfect, then he is not all powerful.

 

[onefour1]

please explain.

What I have found is that if you really take a look at the attribute "all powerful", it doesn't mean having absolute power to do anything imaginable. For example, does God have the power to have never existed and yet exist?

To exist, but never exist are mutually exclusive such that it would be nonsensical to propose that being all powerful would be able to make such a contradiction possible.


The question that your professor asked (which I paraphrase) is if God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving being, why didn't he create us to be perfect like himself? There is no paradox to this question that makes it impossible. God being able to create us perfect does fall under being all powerful. If God did not have the ability to make us perfect, then he is not all powerful.

My question to you was whether or not you agree that God has limits to what he can or cannot do. Your answer in your first paragraph seems to agree with that in that contradictions such as having the power to both exist and not exist simultaneously would not be a power God has. That is an obvious example of how God does not have the power to do absolutely anything. However, since we do not know all there is to know about eternity, we would have to rely upon God himself to reveal to us what is possible for him to do and what is not.

God being able to create us perfect is an assumption on your part and I have never seen anyone or know of anyone in all the word of God and throughout our known history of him creating someone who is as perfect as God our Heavenly Father. Jesus himself while on the earth had to learn from God and went from grace to grace.

Hebrews 5:8-9
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Luke 2:52
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

So I am not sure how you can make the assumption that God has the capability of creating man to be perfect. If he had the ability to do so, why wouldn't he do it? Not sure how you can claim that he cannot hold the power to exist and not exist and be God and yet if he cannot make us to be perfect then he cannot be God. Both are a lack of absolute power to do anything imaginable.

 

[JoeMoma]

My question to you was whether or not you agree that God has limits to what he can or cannot do. Your answer in your first paragraph seems to agree with that in that contradictions such as having the power to both exist and not exist simultaneously would not be a power God has. That is an obvious example of how God does not have the power to do absolutely anything.

And I asked you what was the true answer (to your professor's question)? Are you saying that God wasn't able to make us perfect?

 

[JoeMoma]

Not sure how you can claim that he cannot hold the power to exist and not exist and be God and yet if he cannot make us to be perfect then he cannot be God.

To exist and not exist is not one thing, it's two mutually exclusively things. Doing one logically means not doing the other. That does not mean God isn't all powerful, it means that God chooses how to use his power in either-or situations. For example, God had a choice as whether to create us perfect or flawed. Not both perfect and flawed because by definition being perfect precludes being flawed and vice-versa.

Now if you want to answer your professor's question by saying God is not all powerful, okay. That seems to be what you are doing. Maybe God isn't all powerful, but that is not how the God of the bible is described.

 

[onefour1]

Not sure how you can claim that he cannot hold the power to exist and not exist and be God and yet if he cannot make us to be perfect then he cannot be God.

To exist and not exist is not one thing, it's two mutually exclusively things. Doing one logically means not doing the other. That does not mean God isn't all powerful, it means that God chooses how to use his power in either-or situations. For example, God had a choice as whether to create us perfect or flawed. Not both perfect and flawed because by definition being perfect precludes being flawed and vice-versa.

Now if you want to answer your professor's question by saying God is not all powerful, okay. That seems to be what you are doing. Maybe God isn't all powerful, but that is not how the God of the bible is described.

What I am saying, and what you do agree with, is that God does not have the power to exist and not exist simultaneously. Yes, they are mutually exclusive and direct opposites of each other, however, it is something that can be conceived of by the human mind. So, my point is that God is not all powerful in that he can do all things that anybody can conceive of . That is obviously not what is meant by "all powerful". So what does it mean to be all powerful? I suggest that "all powerful" means to be able to do all that is possible to do. Obviously, existing and not existing simultaneously is something that you and I find to be impossible even for God. So what it boils down to is that there are conceivable things that are impossible even for God. So when God says,

Mark 10:27
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Matthew 19:26
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

This does not mean that anything imaginable to man is possible for God to do. I suggest that all things are possible with God that are possible for a God to do. Obviously existing and simultaneously not existing doesn't seem to be something that is possible for God. Thus I suggested that there are eternal impossibilities that not even God can do.

 

[onefour1]

My question to you was whether or not you agree that God has limits to what he can or cannot do. Your answer in your first paragraph seems to agree with that in that contradictions such as having the power to both exist and not exist simultaneously would not be a power God has. That is an obvious example of how God does not have the power to do absolutely anything.

And I asked you what was the true answer (to your professor's question)? Are you saying that God wasn't able to make us perfect?

Yes, I am. My answer may not be believed by most because they do not believe in my religious belief. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In our belief, we believe that God himself has revealed to us what the true nature of man is. We do not, as many religions do, believe that the word "create" in the Bible means to create ex nihilo. God revealed to us that we, as eternal intelligences, have always existed and that as intelligences we were never created or made.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Here we find God telling us that mankind is self-existent. We existed as something known as "intelligence". God is telling us that intelligence, because it is self-existent, is something that not even God can create. So mankind before becoming spirit children of God the Father existed as intelligence. We then were born as the spirit children of God before coming to this earth.

Acts:17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Our spirits then engaged in a war in heaven where Satan and his followers we cast out of heaven into the earth without receiving physical bodies. The spirits of those who fought against Satan are born on earth with physical bodies and need the blood of the lamb to overcome Satan. Our physical bodies are subject unto death.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Here we read that there was a war in heaven and that Satan and his followers were cast out of heaven into the earth. We also see that those who fought against Satan, who were Michael and his followers, also came to this earth. Verse 11 tells us this. They overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb. This means that they need repentance and forgiveness of sin which the blood of the Lamb provides for them. They also were subject to death. So we see that those who fought in the war in heaven against Satan came to earth and received physical bodies and needed the blood of the Lamb and were subject unto death. We were the army of Michael and his angels.

Athiests often ask us the question of why is there evil in the world? Why does a God who is all powerful allow evil in the world? The reason is because God did not create man out of nothing. He was created from the dust of this earth and the spirit that he had before being born into this life. According to the revelation to our church, God did not and could not create the intelligences that exist. The mind of man is self-existent and has always existed. This does not infer that a man's intelligence is perfect however. Thus God made man from his spirit which was made from self-existent intelligence and through birth into this world through the posterity of he who was created from the dust of this earth. The reason evil exists in the world is because God has given mankind their free will. Mankind are not perfect. God could not create them perfect because the mind of man is self-existent and was not created or made. Neither could God create mankind's intelligence. Man has to choose good over evil of his own volition. Some do not choose good and this is the reason for evil in the world.

The professor's question makes the assumption that all powerful implies that God is all powerful in the sense that God can do absolutely anything imaginable to the mind of man. This is the flaw in his assumption. God is only all powerful in that he can do only those things that are possible for God to do. If the purpose of God is to help eternal self-existent intelligences to progress, then God doesn't have the power to create them to be perfect since he doesn't have the power to create something that is already self-existent.

I realize that this is controversial to those who do not believe my religion. But to me this is the great answer why we never see God create a perfect person in this life. This also shows us why there is evil in the world because God has placed imperfect people on the earth with the free will to choose evil over good. God doesn't create mankind out of nothing but he always creates them from spirit and element. A part of spirit is the intelligence which is self-existent. The element part of man we believe to also be eternal in nature.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

To me these revelations from God are true. To others they may not believe that they are true but they are true to me. They explain why man is never created perfect, why there is evil in the world, and why God uses a process of improvement to further the perfection of his children through free will.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

A problem with the multiple timeline/multiple universe theory is where does the new mass and energy for each new timeline/universe come from?

If universes have net zero energy, it doesn't need to some from anywhere.

 

[FredVegbarfuss]

There is no real contradiction with free will that we have, God meant us to have choice, and choose accordingly, we have responsibility in that. It is we ourselves who can bring judgment on us. Also, I won't accept interpretation of science stating that all things now ultimately came from nothing. Only nothing would come from nothing, there is not ever anything shown to truly come from nothing. Ultimately, there is necessary existence explaining how things of the universe came to be, that is the supreme being, and there is nothing we find in the universe that can be that.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

God meant us to have choice, and choose accordingly, we have responsibility in that.

Then why does the science show we are not really conscious agents of our decisions, and they are made before we realize they are made?

 

[ding]

God meant us to have choice, and choose accordingly, we have responsibility in that.

Then why does the science show we are not really conscious agents of our decisions, and they are made before we realize they are made?

That's a specious argument. You used the phrase "made" as in decisions were made. You are confusing how we process and make decisions for there not being a decision or a choice.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

God meant us to have choice, and choose accordingly, we have responsibility in that.

Then why does the science show we are not really conscious agents of our decisions, and they are made before we realize they are made?

That's a specious argument. You used the phrase "made" as in decisions were made. You are confusing how we process and make decisions for there not being a decision or a choice.

I didn't make any argument. So your post is crap from the start.

Second, the science shows that our decisions occur before we ar aware they have occured. So i am curious how that is squared with the idea of free will presented. I did not expect you to attempt this exercise. It involves science we have performed since 1990. If you have no answer, please allow someone else to answer.

 

[ding]

A problem with the multiple timeline/multiple universe theory is where does the new mass and energy for each new timeline/universe come from?

If universes have net zero energy, it doesn't need to some from anywhere.

The spontaneous creation of space and time doesn't violate the conservation of energy because the net energy of the universe is zero because the positive energy of energy/matter is balanced by the negative energy of gravitation of the energy/matter.

It would be more accurate to say matter and energy were created from nothing than to say matter and energy doesn't need to come from anywhere.

 

[ding]

God meant us to have choice, and choose accordingly, we have responsibility in that.

Then why does the science show we are not really conscious agents of our decisions, and they are made before we realize they are made?

That's a specious argument. You used the phrase "made" as in decisions were made. You are confusing how we process and make decisions for there not being a decision or a choice.

I didn't make any argument. So your post is crap from the start.

Second, the science shows that our decisions occur before we ar aware they have occured. So i am curious how that is squared with the idea of free will presented. I did not expect you to attempt this exercise. It involves science we have performed since 1990. If you have no answer, please allow someone else to answer.

But you did. You argued there is no free will.

Again... you are confusing the process in which decisions are made with free will. Free will is nothing more than choice. Everything is choice.