Zone1 Explaining Jesus to a Jew

irosie91 said:
Jesus was not a THIEF IN THE NITE----he was a conscientious Pharisee Jew
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they were not jews at all nor ever claimed to be - jesus mary joseph and mary m ... they were heavenly enriched for who they were examples of liberation theology.
 
rosends said:
It doesn't matter what you believe. You have the right to whatever story you like.

Except that if you follow the grammar, Israel IS mentioned. Start from 52 because there really is no division between 52 and 53.

What am I modifying? I have been citing this understanding the whole time.

You misunderstand what the rabbis say and when they say it. Isaiah has specific instances which certain rabbis have ALSO applied to a messianic idea. Strange how none of those rabbis thinks it applies to Jesus. So you like if they say "messiah" but don't then follow their understanding that it isn't Jesus.

And you are inventing a reading to justify your theological needs. There is nothing in the text to support it so you claim "deeper meaning" so that you can hang onto something. Good luck with that invention.

This is true, and since the concept of the messiah was given to us, you might want to pay attention to how we understand it instead of coopting it and changing it to fit your needs.

Great. That just isn't what the messiah was or will be.


God saves. Exactly. That isn't the role of the messiah. At least not in the sense of the y-sh-ayin root.

Invoking the rabbinic concept of Pardes should mean that you accept the authority of the rabbinic statements. Then you should know this one "ein mikra yotze midei peshuto" which should help you understand how rabbis can see the Isaiah instances as applying secondarily to a deeper idea.

you are worried that I will "bewitch" people by pointing out what Judaism says? So how about this -- you stick with what your gospels say so that Christians can believe it and I'll stick with the Jewish texts. What? You mean you NEED the Jewish texts to establish Christian ideas and if I point out what the Jewish texts actually say that calls Christian understanding into doubt? And you want to rely on rabbinic ideas when it is convenient but otherwise they will bewitch? That's sad.

Or in need of external inventions.

And I'm just pointing out the errors of your inventions for the sake of, well, anyone who might not want to be misled by all the errors and inventions.

Actually,. I'm reading it accurately, not inserting stuff that isn't there. If you actually read that section of Isaiah, you would see who is talking and about whom and you would realize that your understanding is flawed.

"Jesus is in there because I believe in Jesus and so even if he's not in there, he must be in there because I believe in him." Good luck with that.

So you misunderstand the Ramchal. If we are all "reduced" because of the events in Eden, then following commandments and doing acts of piety now can affect all of us and raise us all up now.
The important line you seem to ignore from the Ramchal is "This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole."

If you read Jewish discussions of suffering and atonement you would learn that the Ramchal's statement falls in line with a classic Jewish idea about the suffering and death of the righteous. One of the things it does is inspire people to repent and improve, thus bringing about atonement. It isn't magic or automatic vicarious anything. It is about (as the Ramchal said) bringing about a chain of events. Those people suffer as a sig to others, driving others to repent without having to suffer as much. If you want more information about this so that you don't look so foolish when bringing up the Ramchal, just let me know. You also seem to be stepping into some of the more complex ideas of klipot and the original divine light. It isn't appropriate to move on to Zoharic ideas unless you understand the basics more thoroughly. If you just want to pick and choose in order to make your point, then feel free, but in Judaism, learning is cumulative and ordered so that things make sense in a context built on a foundation. For example, the section and footnotes you snipped led you to misunderstand the talmud. Had you studied Sukkah 45b you would see that RashBi's statement isn't about absolving anyone of sin and certainly not through death.

I'm assuming that you are citing the Derech Hashem because you already studied the Messilat Yesharim -- they need to be learned in order to be understood. So you did that, right?

You hear in him an echo of Christianity because that's the lens through which you read it. A Jew reading it wouldn't get any of that because the Jew would be reading him through the understanding of Jewish ideas and other Jewish texts. But I guess misappropriating rabbinic statements when they benefit you is a method that works for you. What's really funny is that nothing in the Ramchal talks about any of this as a role of the messiah.

Wrong word. Sigh. you mean כּלוּם. What you wrote is Kulom, meaning "all". If you don't know the stuff, you are better off not putting anything there so you don't look so foolish.

"Fallen angels"? Ugh. More Christian stuff. Not a Jewish concept.

It is just a belief, and one informed by misunderstandings and grand (non-biblical) statements.

No, the word ברנשא does not appear at all in Judaic books. Daniel 7:13 makes reference to a figure in a dream who looks human, and the text says כְּבַ֥ר אֱנָ֖שׁ (k'var enosh). Again, if you don't know the language, don't try to use it.

According to whom? I can give a citation for the understanding that the phrase refers to the future messiah. Can you show me the source that says it refers to the saints? In fact, the primary commentator who explains Bar Enosh as referring to the messiah explicitly says that the other references to the holy ones (such as in 7:18) are NOT references to the messiah. So drawing them together is a huge error. Delbert Burkett made the connection in a book he wrote specifically about Christianity, unrelated to any Jewish thought. [and Burkett is of the opinion that originally, "Bar Enosh" was not a messianic reference and only became so through rabbinic interpretation, so your claim that it can be the messiah requires you to accept rabbinic interpretive authority. But you do that only when convenient] If you want to go according to him, then you shouldn't go according to the rabbis. Unless you want to pick and choose and be inconsistent. Your call, I guess.

No, it can't. Different words/phrases refer to different groups/people.
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Actually,. I'm reading it accurately, not inserting stuff that isn't there. If you actually read that section of Isaiah, you would see who is talking and about whom and you would realize that your understanding is flawed.

As I pointed out there are various levels of meaning to scripture and even your own rabbis recognize that.

"Jesus is in there because I believe in Jesus and so even if he's not in there, he must be in there because I believe in him." Good luck with that.

We believe the suffering servant who is suffering unjustly and redeems the world through his suffering is Jesus the Messiah. Christianity isn't just a belief or opinion, it's the power of God to salvation. Christians who are born again and filled with the Holy Spirit know that. You're the one missing out, not the Christians.


So you misunderstand the Ramchal. If we are all "reduced" because of the events in Eden, then following commandments and doing acts of piety now can affect all of us and raise us all up now. The important line you seem to ignore from the Ramchal is "This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole." If you read Jewish discussions of suffering and atonement you would learn that the Ramchal's statement falls in line with a classic Jewish idea about the suffering and death of the righteous. One of the things it does is inspire people to repent and improve, thus bringing about atonement.

Yes, there is a belief that the suffering of the righteous can motivate sinners to repentance. But anyone who reads what the RAMCHAL wrote, can see for themselves, that's not what he's referring to. It's more than just "motivating people to repent". I know that you will assert otherwise, but Christians can just read what the RAMCHAL said for themselves. My expectation or concern here is not to convince you of anything, it's to help Christians, not fall prey to disingenuous, deceptive Jewish anti-missionary arguments.


It isn't magic or automatic vicarious anything.

What you call "magic" is simply spiritual or a divine work. There's certainly a vicarious component to what the RAMCHAL is saying.

It is about (as the Ramchal said) bringing about a chain of events. Those people suffer as a sign to others, driving others to repent without having to suffer as much.

He said much more than that. You can pretend otherwise, but you're not fooling anyone who reads it.

If you want more information about this so that you don't look so foolish when bringing up the Ramchal, just let me know. You also seem to be stepping into some of the more complex ideas of klipot and the original divine light. It isn't appropriate to move on to Zoharic ideas unless you understand the basics more thoroughly. If you just want to pick and choose in order to make your point, then feel free, but in Judaism, learning is cumulative and ordered so that things make sense in a context built on a foundation. For example, the section and footnotes you snipped led you to misunderstand the talmud. Had you studied Sukkah 45b you would see that RashBi's statement isn't about absolving anyone of sin and certainly not through death.

DERECH HASHEM - THE RAMCHAL/Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto:

" The rule that the Community of the Future World [Olam Haba] is restricted only to those who attained perfection in their own right is not absolute. For it was also decreed that an individual can reach a level where he can partake of perfection and be included in the Community as the result of his association with a more worthy individual. The only difference is that he will remain on a lower level, since he is not included in the Community in his own right, but only through the association of another.[1] "

As one can see, the less worthy are included in the community of the future world, not of their own merits or only because they repented of their sins and acquired their own merits, but in virtue of the merits of another person.

The above paragraph is just the beginning. He goes on to write:

" As a result of this principle, suffering, and pain may be imposed on a tzaddik (righteous person) as an atonement for his entire generation. This tzaddik must then accept this suffering with love for the benefit of his generation, just as he accepts the suffering imposed on him for his own sake. In doing so, he benefits his generation by atoning for it, and at the same time, is himself elevated to a very great degree. For a tzaddik such as this is made into one of the leaders in the Community of the Future World, as discussed earlier.

Such suffering also includes cases where a tzaddik suffers because his entire generation deserves great punishments, bordering on annihilation, but is spared via the tzaddik’s suffering. In atoning for his generations, through his suffering, this tzaddik saves these people in this world, and als greatly benefits them in the World-to-Come."

He atones for the less worthy and prevents them from being annihilated. There is no mention here, that the reason these people were spared destruction was because they saw a righteous person suffering and they all repented. You're projecting that on the text. They don't deserve to be spared but are anyways in virtue of the atoning sacrifice of the righteous.

The RAMCHAL goes on:

"In addition, there is a special, higher type of suffering that comes to a tzaddik who is even greater and more perfected than the ones discussed above. This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole. According to the original plan, the sequence of worldly events required that man undergo at least some suffering before both he and the world could attain perfection. This was required by the very fact that one of the basic concepts of man’s predicament was that Hashem should hold back His Light and hide His Presence. This became all the more necessary as a result of the corruption and spiritual damage caused by man’s many sins, which held the good back even more and caused Hashem’s presence to become all the more hidden. The world and everything in it are therefore in a degraded evil state, and require that Hashem’s unfathomable wisdom bring about numerous chains of events to achieve their rectification."

The chains of events that you reduce to mere repentance are clearly more than that. The events that lead to redemption involve more than just people repenting of their sins and promising to keep shabbos. The sacrifice or suffering of the righteous has a "magical", cosmic, spiritual effect on YHWH's creation, contributing to the chains of events that lead to the final redemption. The RAMCHAL writes:

"Among the most important elements of this sequence is the requirement that man be punished for his wickedness until the Attribute of Justice is satisfied. Hashem arranged matters, however, so that select perfect individuals could rectify things for others, as discussed earlier. The Attribute of Justice therefore relates to them rather than to the rest of the world in general.

Individuals such as these, however, are themselves perfect, and are therefore worthy only of good. The only reason that they suffer is because of others, and the Attribute of Justice must therefore be as satisfied with a small amount of suffering on their part as with a large amount on the part of those who actually sinned.

Beyond that, the merit and power of these tzaddikim is also increased because of such suffering, and this gives them even greater ability to rectify the damage of others. They can therefore not only rectify their own generation, but can also correct all of the spiritual damage done from the beginning, from the time of the very first sinners."

Like most Jewish anti-missionaries, that reduce all of the above to a righteous person suffering and then people feeling sorry for him and repenting of their sins. The suffering of the righteous has an effect at a "cosmic" level, it is a spiritual power that cleanses the creation of its impurities and damage. The RAMCHAL continues:

" It is obvious that individuals such as these will ultimately be the foremost leaders in the Perfected Community, and the ones who are the very closest to Hashem.[4] All this is not only the result of justice, but also follows from the actual order of things. As a result of man’s sins, corruption is increased and incorporated into both man and the world. This in turn causes Hashem’s Light to be increasingly retracted and hidden. The more that this corruption is cleansed, on the other hand, and the more people that are purified of it, the more Hashem’s Light is once again revealed, step by step.

Suffering is the thing that Hashem created to cleanse the pollution, both in general and in particular. Thus, through the suffering of these select individuals, creation in general is cleansed, and step by step the world is brought closer to perfection"

Suffering itself is the thing that God created to cleanse the pollution of His creation, both in general and in particular. Thus, through the suffering of these select individuals, creation, in general, is cleansed, and step by step the world is brought to perfection. Your disingenuous, anti-missionary interpretation is that it's just people feeling sorry for the righteous who are suffering and repenting of their sins. Yeah sure, that's what it is.

Rx.gif

Your reductionist interpretation isn't very convincing. Christians will see right through it and thank God for that. That's my only concern.

I'm assuming that you are citing the Derech Hashem because you already studied the Messilat Yesharim -- they need to be learned in order to be understood. So you did that, right?


tenor.gif


You hear in him an echo of Christianity because that's the lens through which you read it. A Jew reading it wouldn't get any of that because the Jew would be reading him through the understanding of Jewish ideas and other Jewish texts. But I guess misappropriating rabbinic statements when they benefit you is a method that works for you. What's really funny is that nothing in the Ramchal talks about any of this as a role of the messiah.

Time and time again, we hear Jewish anti-missionaries characterizing our Christian faith as alien to the faith of the ancient Israelites. Supposedly, the suffering of the righteous, can't redeem others. It's supposedly a "pagan belief", to believe that the Messiah would redeem the world through His suffering. Well, the more mystical you rabbinic Jewish people get, the more Christian you sound. The RAMCHAL is clearly stating that the suffering of the righteous has an ontological, cosmic, redemptive, and purifying effect on creation. You disparagingly dismiss that as "magic", but that's exactly what the RAMCHAL is saying.

What you criticize as "magic" is simply spiritual. That's what the RAMCHAL calls it. Spiritual. There's a spiritual effect, that the suffering of the righteous has on YHWH's creation. You pretend that the "sequence of events", is just people feeling sorry for the righteous who are suffering, so they repent and become righteous themselves. Can the suffering of the righteous, lead people to repentance? Of course, that's part of it, but you reduce it to just that, because if it's something more it's supposedly "magic" and in your mind most likely, despite you denying it, it's "too Christian". That's why you call it "magic", to discredit the obvious.

You said "It's not vicarious anything", when it clearly is vicarious. OH NO OUR RAMCHAL IS TOO CHRISTIAN!!

Wrong word. Sigh. you mean כּלוּם. What you wrote is Kulom, meaning "all". If you don't know the stuff, you are better off not putting anything there so you don't look so foolish.

Typo. I'm sure if I go through your posts I will find plenty. You missed my point and reduce it to a typo.

"Fallen angels"? Ugh. More Christian stuff. Not a Jewish concept.

It's not a rabbinic Jewish concept. But reality itself undermines your rabbinic-Talmudic Jewish beliefs. The point is that all of the false gods or idols are demons or fallen spirits. They entice people to perform sacrifices to them, including the murder of children. The purpose of Israel was to create an idolatrous free environment for the incarnation of the Son of YHWH, who is the Messiah.

It is just a belief, and one informed by misunderstandings and grand (non-biblical) statements. No, the word ברנשא does not appear at all in Judaic books. Daniel 7:13 makes reference to a figure in a dream who looks human, and the text says כְּבַ֥ר אֱנָ֖שׁ (k'var enosh). Again, if you don't know the language, don't try to use it.

The human being in the vision represents the saints or tzadikim, whereas the beasts are the nations without the law of God. That is the interpretation of the angel. In my Artscroll Tenach commentary, the Son of Man, or the man in the vision, is also the Mashiach. So here we see that a Biblical passage can refer to both the saints and the Messiah. Both. That was my point.


According to whom? I can give a citation for the understanding that the phrase refers to the future messiah. Can you show me the source that says it refers to the saints? In fact, the primary commentator who explains Bar Enosh as referring to the messiah explicitly says that the other references to the holy ones (such as in 7:18) are NOT references to the messiah. So drawing them together is a huge error. Delbert Burkett made the connection in a book he wrote specifically about Christianity, unrelated to any Jewish thought. [and Burkett is of the opinion that originally, "Bar Enosh" was not a messianic reference and only became so through rabbinic interpretation, so your claim that it can be the messiah requires you to accept rabbinic interpretive authority. But you do that only when convenient] If you want to go according to him, then you shouldn't go according to the rabbis. Unless you want to pick and choose and be inconsistent. Your call, I guess.
No, it can't. Different words/phrases refer to different groups/people.


  1. The Son of Man as the Saints or the Remnant of Israel:     This interpretation reads the "one like a son of man" as a symbol for the people of Israel themselves, particularly the faithful "remnant" who remain true to God amidst persecution. In this view, the figure's triumph over the beasts (interpreted as oppressive foreign empires) is a symbolic promise of Israel's eventual vindication and restoration. This interpretation is suggested in Daniel 7:18, where it says, "But the holy ones of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever and ever." Here, the "holy ones" are often understood to represent the faithful saints/tzadikim.
  2. The Son of Man as the Messiah: This interpretation understands the "one like a son of man" as a specific individual an anointed one or Messiah who will act on behalf of Israel and bring about the restoration and vindication promised in the vision. This is a common understanding in Christian interpretations, where the "Son of Man" is identified with Jesus. However, it's also found in Jewish commentaries, that identify the human figure in the vision as the Messiah.
These interpretations aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. The vision could be using a single figure to represent a collective reality, or it could be anticipating a specific individual who embodies and represents the people as a whole.
 
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Meriweather said:
I wasn't speaking of the Holocaust, but of personal events in Anne's diary--those events that occurred outside of historical fact. Historical facts in Jesus' time were crucifixions. Personal event was the resurrection. Crucifixions left physical evidence; the resurrection did not. I am certain you can understand the difference between historical physical proof and personal events that leave no physical evidence.
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What personal things in Anne Frank’s diary you don’t believe happened?
 
Magnus said:
What personal things in Anne Frank’s diary you don’t believe happened?
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You may have missed the first part of the discussion. Another poster has no belief in the resurrection because there is no physical evidence. I believe in the resurrection despite there being no physical evidence and I believe everything Anne wrote happened--even the personal events where there is no physical evidence. In everyone's life there are events that leave no physical evidence despite the fact they actually occurred. The same with Jesus' life.
 
irosie91 said:
BS----at no time or place is the messiah described as a warlord----Mr. Nutz is thinking
of the Mass Murdering Pig ---Richard the FAT-CAT hearted
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What is the Jewish understanding of the messiah?
 
rosends said:
As a Jew, if you have any questions about what Red Front is saying, just let me know. Red Front ignores what I have said, admits to introducing phantom "deep meanings" and does not know Hebrew, or much about Judaism. Don't be fooled by his flawed arguments in favor of Christianity.
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I haven't ignored anything you've said, I've addressed all of your disingenuous arguments. The "deep meaning" that you are dismissing is used by your own rabbis. They admit that the Hebrew Bible has multiple levels of meaning. You haven't shown so far how any of my arguments are "flawed".
 
irosie91 said:
as far as I know----the person who USHERS in an UTOPIAN AGE of peace
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How? A microwave redemption? Or perhaps YHWH redeems the world like a master chef. He uses the oven, not the microwave. It's a process that begins with the suffering and resurrection of the Messiah 2000 years ago and ends with the whole world either becoming Christian or recognizing the God of Israel and the return of the Messiah. Christianity is part of the process of redemption and was necessary, otherwise, no one would care about a Jewish Messiah. Jesus/Yehoshua is so renowned that even Hindus know and respect him. Buddhists know Jesus. Practically every nation on Earth, even if they have their own religious or national calendar, is forced by necessity to use the calendar based on the birth of the Jewish Messiah.

You go anywhere on Earth and ask someone "What year is it", most will tell you the equivalent of 2023 in their own language. What does that mean? It's 2023 years since the birth of a Jewish man named Yehoshua, who the Christians call Jesus and consider the Messiah. He was the catalyst for the redemption of humanity, starting the process that leads to all of the nations knowing Him and His God, YHWH.

The Jews don't send missionaries, the Christians are the ones proselytizing and distributing the Bible everywhere. Jews don't want to convert the world to Judaism, Christians want to convert everybody to Christianity (The Bible, YHWH, and His Son). Thousands of translations of the Bible, and people reading about YHWH our heavenly Father, Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the Messiah, as far as the Islands of the South Pacific. Everywhere. This Jewish man, named Jesus/Yehoshua is everywhere. That's how YHWH is going to redeem humanity. Through His Son, Mashiach. When he returns, the world will be ready.
 
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Meriweather said:
You may have missed the first part of the discussion. Another poster has no belief in the resurrection because there is no physical evidence. I believe in the resurrection despite there being no physical evidence and I believe everything Anne wrote happened--even the personal events where there is no physical evidence. In everyone's life there are events that leave no physical evidence despite the fact they actually occurred. The same with Jesus' life.
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ok----on faith and poetry----I believe that a bunch of jews were sorta stuck in Egypt and then left--
I am not so sure that Moses Heston waved his magic wand and the sea parted---but it is
nice on faith and poetry. I believe that a Jesus---or a few dozen people named "jesus"
were crucified by the Romans. A cult developed around one of the more charismatic of the
several "Jesuses" ----sorry--but I am an equal opportunity cynic. Based on my reading of
the NT (in english translation)---the Jesus in question was a typical Pharisee jew of his
time and got transformed to a symbol of the hatred "SAINT" constantine harbored for
Jews who rejected his autocratic empire - the FIRST REICH
 
irosie91 said:
Let me know when it happens---so far millions have been genocided
out of existence in his name----thru no fault of HIS---he was railroaded
into an undesired role
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He said that "Many will come in my name and deceive many". Charlatans are everywhere. Most of the world has heard of Jesus, but few accept him as Lord.
 
Woodznutz said:
He said that "Many will come in my name and deceive many". Charlatans are everywhere. Most of the world has heard of Jesus, but few accept him as Lord.
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so true-----Poor Jesus----a conscientious Pharisee Jew-----so misunderstood
over 2000 years
 
15th post
Woodznutz said:
Nah, he condemned the Pharisees. :mad:
His true followers understand him. :)
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Constantine condemned the Pharisees and his minions
murdered them in the millions in the name of something
they call "JESUS CHRIST"
 
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