CDZ EV question

[beagle9]

The amount the second battery can be charged will never be enough to go the original 200 miles that the car could go with out the system. The resistance the charging of the second battery will cause more of an energy drain that would of resulted in miles traveled than will be recovered by charging the second battery.

I can of wonder if you are shitting us by pretending that you don't already understand this.

Doesn't have to go the original 200 miles, where as at that point the primaries drop to low before switched over to the charged secondaries...

It's only this we are wanting to be achieved - We don't want to have to seek out a charging station, because we now have an on board system that is charging in route that is using minimal amount of drag on the drive system while doing so.

Forget the miles, and let's focus on recharge without seeking a recharge station.

 

[JoeMoma]

Doesn't have to go the original 200 miles, where as at that point the primaries drop to low before switched over to the charged secondaries... It's only this wanting to be achieved - We don't want to have to seek out a charging station, because we now have an on board system that is charging in route that is using minimal amount of drag on the drive system while doing so.

Forget the miles, and let's focus on recharge without seeking a recharge station.

It won't get the original 200 miles even after all the switching from one battery to another. The energy cost of charging the second batter will be more than the energy gotten out. That's why it's not already being done.

 

[beagle9]

It won't get the original 200 miles even after all the switching from one battery to another. The energy cost of charging the second batter will be more than the energy gotten out. That's why it's not already being done.

That's my problem, otherwise it's hard for me to believe that the energy used by the recharging apparatus would rob to much of the primary power IOW so that it can't be figured out or designed to work somehow. We have seen Tesla's being raced and having huge amounts of power to do that, but we can't figure out a charging system that can operate using just a fraction of that power in order to have a secondary battery pack ready to be switched too when the system calls for it ?

 

[AsherN]

That's my problem, otherwise it's hard for me to believe that the energy used by the recharging apparatus would rob to much of the primary power IOW so that it can't be figured out or designed to work somehow. We have seen Tesla's being raced and having huge amounts of power to do that, but we can't figure out a charging system that can operate using just a fraction of that power in order to have a secondary battery pack ready to be switched too when the system calls for it ?

I will hazard a guess that you are too young to remember dynamo powered bicycle lights, where it night you would flip the dynamo against the front wheel to produce enough power to energize a flashlight bulb. The drag was noticeable. The drag is enough to help stop the vehicle in regenerative braking.

 

[M14 Shooter]

How much friction do you think that it would rob....

It doesn't matter.
As long at there is anything more than zero friction and/or zero energy loss to resistance (that is, heat), the system will not self-perpetuate.
Not sure why you refuse to understand this.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I will hazard a guess that you are too young to remember dynamo powered bicycle lights, where it night you would flip the dynamo against the front wheel to produce enough power to energize a flashlight bulb. The drag was noticeable. The drag is enough to help stop the vehicle in regenerative braking.

It helps stop a train, but apparently won't affect a car.

 

[beagle9]

It doesn't matter.
As long at there is anything more than zero friction and/or zero energy loss to resistance (that is, heat), the system will not self-perpetuate.
Not sure why you refuse to understand this.

All I know is that we have the EV in which has batteries, an electric motor, and some accessories that also run off of the batteries while in operation. At this point everything is a drag, but it's been figured out how to save power in various configurations, and that transcribes into longer trip miles with all things considered. However the EV must stop sooner or later in order to be recharged back to it's fullest capacity, and this in order to continue on beyond the initial charge and trip schedule.

I'm thinking that an added internal charge system could be invented that would charge a secondary set of batteries in order to switch over too when needed.

 

[beagle9]

It doesn't matter.
As long at there is anything more than zero friction and/or zero energy loss to resistance (that is, heat), the system will not self-perpetuate.
Not sure why you refuse to understand this.

Self perpetuate ? Why does everyone keep going there ? Where not talking about self-perpetuation or perpetual motion, because as many say that there is no such a thing in this world as is orchestrated by man's hand, but what I'm talking about is creating a loop that is powered by device's that regenerate by way of created movement, otherwise as is orchestrated by man's hand in this world that was given unto him by God himself..

 

[JoeMoma]

Self perpetuate ? Why does everyone keep going there ? Where not talking about self-perpetuation or perpetual motion, because as many say that there is no such a thing in this world as is orchestrated by man's hand, but what I'm talking about is creating a loop that is powered by device's that regenerate by way of created movement, otherwise as is orchestrated by man's hand in this world that was given unto him by God himself..

Why? Because what your are proposing is a variation of that. And if what you are proposing worked, then in theory one could design a two battery system in which one battery could both provide energy for the propelling the car and propelling the car would turn a generator that would charge the battery. When the first battery runs our of juice, the batteries switch roles and the second battery is used to propel the car and the first battery is charged. And you are saying that this will extend the miles the car can travel beyond what the first battery alone could do. Therefore you are implying that the machine is creating it's own energy by recharging it's self. If this could work, then in theory, the car could go forever on just one initial battery charge because the motion of the car would always be charging one of the batteries. Just keep switching from one battery to the other and the car goes forever.

Likewise, if one fully charged battery can power a car 200 miles, you can't simply charge a second battery using the motion of the car's wheels and then switch batteries and get 201 or more miles. You cannot make a machine that creates it's own energy from its own motion more than the energy it was supplied from an outside source. When a generator is used to charge a battery, you never get as much energy out of the battery as it took to operate the generator to charge the battery because no machine is 100% efficient.

 

[beagle9]

Why? Because what your are proposing is a variation of that. And if what you are proposing worked, then in theory one could design a two battery system in which one battery could both provide energy for the propelling the car and propelling the car would turn a generator that would charge the battery. When the first battery runs our of juice, the batteries switch roles and the second battery is used to propel the car and the first battery is charged. And you are saying that this will extend the miles the car can travel beyond what the first battery alone could do. Therefore you are implying that the machine is creating it's own energy by recharging it's self. If this could work, then in theory, the car could go forever on just one initial battery charge because the motion of the car would always be charging one of the batteries. Just keep switching from one battery to the other and the car goes forever.

Likewise, if one fully charged battery can power a car 200 miles, you can't simply charge a second battery using the motion of the car's wheels and then switch batteries and get 201 or more miles. You cannot make a machine that creates it's own energy from its own motion more than the energy it was supplied from an outside source. When a generator is used to charge a battery, you never get as much energy out of the battery as it took to operate the generator to charge the battery because no machine is 100% efficient.

Great response... Ok a few things, uhhhh if I can be as good at responding as you were. Ok in one of my post I wrote that the miles would be sacrificed because of the added drag on everything due to recharging while in motion, so instead of the EV reaching it's original mileage goal without the added drag, it would only reach instead of 200 miles out it would only reach 140.

But when switched over to the secondary batteries, it would reach 140 again before switching back to the newly charged primaries. Ok, and so we are now saying that the primaries couldn't be recharged with the weaker charging system because we can't create a charging system that would create to much drag, so the primaries would suffer in this regard on being fully charged back up correct ?

Hmmm ok so now we only get an added 100 miles out of the recharged primaries before having to switch back over to the recharged secondaries again, and then we only get 80 miles extra from them because as the miles get lower so does the charge being applied.

Ok now at some point the EV needs to be placed in dock (at a recharging station), in order for primaries and secondaries to be fully charged again. After that the system returns to it's original 200 mile reach on just the primaries until the process is reactivated and used again.

So no charging needed until switch over to the fully charged secondaries that were in waiting, and then the charging system kicks in to start the charge on the primaries that would be switched back over too once the secondaries are lowered to a level that warrant's the switching process to be repeated back to the primaries for let's say the get back home stretch run.

Ok in all of this, did we extend the miles driven on the EV, even though as you say it is a dying process due to the somewhat added drag that is created by the weaker charging process and switching mechanism ?

Ok and then we could still have the regenerated braking process or down hill process that can also be available in the vehicle as another charging method used in the complete recharging on board system.

 

[JoeMoma]

Great response... Ok a few things, uhhhh if I can be as good at responding as you were. Ok in one of my post I wrote that the miles would be sacrificed because of the added drag on everything due to recharging while in motion, so instead of the EV reaching it's original mileage goal without the added drag, it would only reach instead of 200 miles out it would only reach 140.

But when switched over to the secondary batteries, it would reach 140 again before switching back to the newly charged primaries. Ok, and so we are now saying that the primaries couldn't be recharged with the weaker charging system because we can't create a charging system that would create to much drag, so the primaries would suffer in this regard on being fully charged back up correct ?

Hmmm ok so now we only get an added 100 miles out of the recharged primaries before having to switch back over to the recharged secondaries again, and then we only get 80 miles extra from them because as the miles get lower so does the charge being applied.

Ok now at some point the EV needs to be placed in dock (at a recharging station), in order for primaries and secondaries to be fully charged again. After that the system returns to it's original 200 mile reach on just the primaries until the process is reactivated and used again.

So no charging needed until switch over to the fully charged secondaries that were in waiting, and then the charging system kicks in to start the charge on the primaries that would be switched back over too once the secondaries are lowered to a level that warrant's the switching process to be repeated back to the primaries for let's say the get back home stretch run.

Ok in all of this, did we extend the miles driven on the EV, even though as you say it is a dying process due to the somewhat added drag that is created by the weaker charging process and switching mechanism ?

Ok and then we could still have the regenerated braking process or down hill process that can also be available in the vehicle as another charging method used in the complete recharging on board system.

Due to inefficiencies of all machines, the energy require to operate a generator to charge a battery will always be greater than the energy that can be used from the battery. There is no extending of miles by charging that second battery.

You can divert some of the energy from propelling the car forward to charging a second battery, but the reduction in miles from doing so will always be greater than the miles you can get back when you switch over to the second battery. If you could drive the car 200 miles originally off one battery, you may be able to go 150 miles while charging that second battery and the distance that second battery can take your car will be less than 50 miles, probably much less. Its the law of conservation of energy. You can't get more energy out of the system than what is put in.

 

[beagle9]

Due to inefficiencies of all machines, the energy require to operate a generator to charge a battery will always be greater than the energy that can be used from the battery. There is no extending of miles by charging that second battery.

You can divert some of the energy from propelling the car forward to charging a second battery, but the reduction in miles from doing so will always be greater than the miles you can get back when you switch over to the second battery. If you could drive the car 200 miles originally off one battery, you may be able to go 150 miles while charging that second battery and the distance that second battery can take your car will be less than 50 miles, probably much less. Its the law of conservation of energy. You can't get more energy out of the system than what is put in.

That would depend on the batteries and the regenerating design and processes used correct ? Otherwise if the design of the batteries are being made more and more efficient and more effective be it on longevity, and on ease of recharge, then all boundaries can be extended correct ?

I just refuse to believe that we can't improve more and more in these areas or are we being fed a bunch of bull crap when it comes to EVs being the next knew thing that will eventually take over the gasoline or fuel driven vehicle's ???

Are we being fooled by it all or is their engineering creative design still available in the area ??

 

[JoeMoma]

That would depend on the batteries and the regenerating design and processes used correct ? Otherwise if the design of the batteries are being made more and more efficient and more effective be it on longevity, and on ease of recharge, then all boundaries can be extended correct ?

No, it does not. The math does no change. At 100% efficiency the best that could be obtained by charging and switching to a second battery is the same total distance traveled from using the 1st battery alone. And 100% energy efficiency will never be reached.

 

[JoeMoma]

No, it does not. The math does no change. At 100% efficiency the best that could be obtained by charging and switching to a second battery is the same total distance traveled from using the 1st battery alone. And 100% energy efficiency will never be reached.

For your two battery system to work, it would have to be more than 100% energy efficient. Not going to happen even when using common core math.

 

[beagle9]

No, it does not. The math does no change. At 100% efficiency the best that could be obtained by charging and switching to a second battery is the same total distance traveled from using the 1st battery alone. And 100% energy efficiency will never be reached.

Ok so first battery is operating the vehicle with a projected range of let's use 150 miles. The secondary battery is sitting in wait that was charged to full capacity along with the primary over night by an at home charging station. So they are equally charged when the trip begins.

This equally charged situation has already extended the miles from 150 to 300 because there is an equally charged battery sitting in wait after the primary has exhausted it's miles in usage before needing to be switched over to the secondary.

Ok, now once the secondary takes over, then a charging system that is engineered as so that it places very little drag on the driven power side of the operation, uhhh begins to charge the freed up battery via the regenerative braking system, down hill coasting, and a magneto generation created by the turning of the free wheel in motion that is separate from the power side of the operation, but is engineered not to cause sever drag against the powered side of the operation.

Yes miles will be depleting in the secondary charging of the batteries due to not being able to fully charge the batteries as would be when the vehicle is in dock, but the extended life of the trip due to a regenerative power system should enhance the vehicles distance to some degree wouldn't you agree ??

 

[beagle9]

For your two battery system to work, it would have to be more than 100% energy efficient. Not going to happen even when using common core math.

If the engineering world was restricted by your barriers placed upon it, we would still be attempting to figure out why the wheel actually rolls... LOL.

 

[JoeMoma]

If the engineering world was restricted by your barriers placed upon it, we would still be attempting to figure out why the wheel actually rolls... LOL.

Don't believe me! Prove me wrong by making a working prototype.

If this could be done, it would already be done. Conservation of energy is physics 101. People have tried to implement similar ideas for hundreds of years. All fail.

 

[JoeMoma]

Ok, now once the secondary takes over, then a charging system that is engineered as so that it places very little drag on the driven power side of the operation, uhhh begins to charge the freed up battery via the regenerative braking system, down hill coasting, and a magneto generation created by the turning of the free wheel in motion that is separate from the power side of the operation, but is engineered not to cause sever drag against the powered side of the operation.

An electric generator is harder to turn as the voltage/current generated by the turning the generator increases. It will produce more drag, slowing down the car and decreasing the miles traveled more than can be recovered by charging a second battery. You seem to think charging the second battery is for free or near free because the wheels of the car are already turning. It is not free, there is an energy/drag cost to it and the energy cost will always be greater than the return.

The regenerative breaking system is all ready in place. But it will not allow the car to be driven any farther than it would be possible to simply drive the car and never apply breaks.

 

[beagle9]

Don't believe me! Prove me wrong by making a working prototype.

If this could be done, it would already be done. Conservation of energy is physics 101. People have tried to implement similar ideas for hundreds of years. All fail.

Yeah but are you stuck in a closed minded stance, and dealing in opinionative rhetoric based on wanting me to be wrong or are you actually reading the progress we are making along the road of ideas on this ? Now I've made concessions along the way, but you are stern in your opinion that nothing said is possible, although I've made some changes along the way that gets us closer to something working even though me not being given the entirety of my idea due to some very real obstacles to be overcome in the engineering process.

Have you ever sat in a room of engineering mind's, and discussed how something seemingly impossible could be made possible (although not perfect), but still possible through the exchange in ideas based upon the progress already achieved in area's of interest ??

 

[beagle9]

An electric generator is harder to turn as the voltage/current generated by the turning the generator increases. It will produce more drag, slowing down the car and decreasing the miles traveled more than can be recovered by charging a second battery. You seem to think charging the second battery is for free or near free because the wheels of the car are already turning. It is not free, there is an energy/drag cost to it and the energy cost will always be greater than the return.

The regenerative breaking system is all ready in place. But it will not allow the car to be driven any farther than it would be possible to simply drive the car and never apply breaks.

What is the regenerating braking system in place for, otherwise if it doesn't extend the trip miles of the vehicle or the efficiency there of ?? All I'm saying is that it seems that there is still wiggle room for improvement's wouldn't you agree ??