CDZ EV question

[JoeMoma]

Yeah but are you stuck in a closed minded stance, and dealing in opinionative rhetoric based on wanting me to be wrong or are you actually reading the progress we are making along the road of ideas on this ? Now I've made concessions along the way, but you are stern in your opinion that nothing said is possible, although I've made some changes along the way that gets us closer to something working even though me not being given the entirety of my idea due to some very real obstacles to be overcome in the engineering process.

Have you ever sat in a room of engineering mind's, and discussed how something seemingly impossible could be made possible (although not perfect), but still possible through the exchange in ideas based upon the progress already achieved in area's of interest ??

It's not that I want you to be wrong. You simply are wrong. I've sat through enough physics and engineering classes to know. Physics doesn't care what you or I think.

In the case of regenerating breaking systems, it is beneficial to pipe the energy used to slow down the car back into the battery because YOU ARE SLOWING THE CAR. This system is already in place and perhaps can be improved.

Anyway, I'm done here. If I'm wrong and you are right, you can become a billionaire by implementing your idea and making it work. I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

[badger2]

Self perpetuate ? Why does everyone keep going there ? Where not talking about self-perpetuation or perpetual motion, because as many say that there is no such a thing in this world as is orchestrated by man's hand, but what I'm talking about is creating a loop that is powered by device's that regenerate by way of created movement, otherwise as is orchestrated by man's hand in this world that was given unto him by God himself..

Nuts.

 

[JoeMoma]

It's not that I want you to be wrong. You simply are wrong. I've sat through enough physics and engineering classes to know. Physics doesn't care what you or I think.

In the case of regenerating breaking systems, it is beneficial to pipe the energy used to slow down the car back into the battery because YOU ARE SLOWING THE CAR. This system is already in place and perhaps can be improved.

Anyway, I'm done here. If I'm wrong and you are right, you can become a billionaire by implementing your idea and making it work. I'm not going to hold my breath.

Well maybe I'm not done here. I propose to you a Myth Busters type project. Get an electric golf cart. Drive it around a track to see how far it will go on a single charge. Install a generator turned by one of the free wheels and a second 0% charged battery and then test to find the total distance that can be traveled around the track using the system you proposed. If you are right, then the golf cart can travel farther than originally by using the motion of the golf cart to charge the "other" battery.

Of course I know the outcome because I know about the conservation of energy.

Now if you simply want to extend the range you can drive the car, you are correct in one of your earlier posts that you could simply start with 2 charged batteries. But that would be the same as carrying an extra can of gas in your car to give it a greater range.

Also, are you aware of the size and weight of the battery for an EV. They are not small.

 

[badger2]

Solar panel recharging mounted on the vehicle while in motion is a partial working answer, happening in Wisconsin the working battery does not need pass-through charging.

 

[JoeMoma]

How Much Does a Tesla Battery Weigh

The uniqueness of Tesla batteries aside, you might be curious how much weight these batteries in the Tesla cars actually have. Here, you'll find all the information you need to know about the Tesla battery weight.

batteryprinciple.com

 

[Captain Caveman]

You can't engineer against the laws of physics.

Not to our current understanding of physics.

 

[beagle9]

How Much Does a Tesla Battery Weigh

The uniqueness of Tesla batteries aside, you might be curious how much weight these batteries in the Tesla cars actually have. Here, you'll find all the information you need to know about the Tesla battery weight.

batteryprinciple.com

Great responses, and yes indeed there is room for expansion on the ideas. Yes weight is definitely a contributing factor that has to be dealt with, as well as many other factors involved. The speed of the golf cart, and the resistance in weight factor is definitely a killer in regards to using the golf cart as a test vehicle.

The speed of the EV is what makes the possibilities in the recharging system a more practical application for use in the test prototype. The weight factor is another that can be addressed as well. Then there is the attacking of drag involved, otherwise designing systems that have as less drag or resistance when in use. Super quality engineered bearings are just one area to address, and onward the research goes.

Yes you are correct that the vehicle is constantly losing in the recharge battle due to the values expressed, but having the recharge system and extra battery pack is better than it having no recharge system with just the one battery pack in which only allows the vehicle to travel the reach based upon the one battery pack on board.

Ok, so let's say we start out with two battery packs that should in theory propel the vehicle over all 300 miles reach, but when the second battery pack is switched too, the charging system begins to lug down on the entire process to some degree, so this drag or lug causes the secondary power to be reduced to 100 miles instead of 150, and then we have the primary only being charged back up to say half power before the switch can be made back to it, therefore only giving it a range of 75 miles. Then the switch back to the secondary that is only charged to 1/4th of it's capacity will only propel the vehicle another 37 miles before it has to dock for full recharge.

So all in all the vehicle can actually go a length of 362 miles before a stationary full recharge is needed correct ??

Thanks for your patience with me. It's just an idea or thought that I had.

 

[JoeMoma]

So all in all the vehicle can actually go a length of 362 miles before a stationary full recharge is needed correct ??

No.

I'm done explaining. These videos might help if you take the time.

 

[Captain Caveman]

How Much Does a Tesla Battery Weigh

The uniqueness of Tesla batteries aside, you might be curious how much weight these batteries in the Tesla cars actually have. Here, you'll find all the information you need to know about the Tesla battery weight.

batteryprinciple.com

When I looked at EV vans, the payload you could carry dropped because of the weight of the batteries.

 

[AsherN]

Great responses, and yes indeed there is room for expansion on the ideas. Yes weight is definitely a contributing factor that has to be dealt with, as well as many other factors involved. The speed of the golf cart, and the resistance in weight factor is definitely a killer in regards to using the golf cart as a test vehicle.

The speed of the EV is what makes the possibilities in the recharging system a more practical application for use in the test prototype. The weight factor is another that can be addressed as well. Then there is the attacking of drag involved, otherwise designing systems that have as less drag or resistance when in use. Super quality engineered bearings are just one area to address, and onward the research goes.

Yes you are correct that the vehicle is constantly losing in the recharge battle due to the values expressed, but having the recharge system and extra battery pack is better than it having no recharge system with just the one battery pack in which only allows the vehicle to travel the reach based upon the one battery pack on board.

There you are correct. Weight and drag are a factor on battery life. But speed is not. Going faster will translate on more heat from the generator. Remember that matter and energy cannot be created, merely transformed. So the energy given to the charging wheels will produce heat and electricity. Regenerative braking does not create energy. It takes the car's kinetic energy and converts it to heat and electricity.

 

[beagle9]

There you are correct. Weight and drag are a factor on battery life. But speed is not. Going faster will translate on more heat from the generator. Remember that matter and energy cannot be created, merely transformed. So the energy given to the charging wheels will produce heat and electricity. Regenerative braking does not create energy. It takes the car's kinetic energy and converts it to heat and electricity.

Matter and energy can't be created, merely transformed ?

Otherwise yes energy exist already, so all we do is harness it (control it), and then transform it into the various types of energy that suit's our needs correct ? This is basically what Elon Musk has been up too lately and/or for quite sometime now correct ?

I guess my idea is born of a type of thinking that there is more efficiency and energy to be transformed into more usage via the free motion of a wheel used for stability instead of for powering the vehicle, otherwise a usage caused by the forward motion of the vehicle at certain speeds, downhill coasting, and in what has been talked about here with regenerative braking.. So it's all in a combining effort to create regenerative power for the batteries in which are being used in a staggered type of staged one and stage two effect that drives the vehicle against all odds.

What type of wheel system spark generator can we use to generate spark that could then be harnessed or transformed as you say into a source of energy that converts it into a charge that would be taken into the secondary battery pack for restoration of energy loss in which has occurred when the secondary was being used for the primary before a switching had taken place ?

 

[AsherN]

Matter and energy can't be created, merely transformed ?

Otherwise yes energy exist already, so all we do is harness it (control it), and then transform it into the various types of energy that suit's our needs correct ? This is basically what Elon Musk has been up too lately and/or for quite sometime now correct ?

I guess my idea is born of a type of thinking that there is more efficiency and energy to be transformed into more usage via the free motion of a wheel used for stability instead of for powering the vehicle, otherwise a usage caused by the forward motion of the vehicle at certain speeds, downhill coasting, and in what has been talked about here with regenerative braking.. So it's all in a combining effort to create regenerative power for the batteries in which are being used in a staggered type of staged one and stage two effect that drives the vehicle against all odds.

What type of wheel system spark generator can we use to generate spark that could then be harnessed or transformed as you say into a source of energy that converts it into a charge that would be taken into the secondary battery pack for restoration of energy loss in which has occurred when the secondary was being used for the primary before a switching had taken place ?

Correct, matter and energy can't be created, just transformed. And your system can't work as the transformation of energy always incurs a loss. IOW, you can't put back the same amount of energy as you draw out. coasting downhill and braking requires applying friction to slow down the vehicle. At that point, you can use that to recharge the batteries. Already being done. What you are describing, maintaining a constant speed forward motion while also putting energy back in the system will require more energy than just required for the forward motion, and some of that energy will be lost to the additional drag the generator imposes on the system and to the less than 100% efficiency of the generator.

 

[beagle9]

Correct, matter and energy can't be created, just transformed. And your system can't work as the transformation of energy always incurs a loss. IOW, you can't put back the same amount of energy as you draw out. coasting downhill and braking requires applying friction to slow down the vehicle. At that point, you can use that to recharge the batteries. Already being done. What you are describing, maintaining a constant speed forward motion while also putting energy back in the system will require more energy than just required for the forward motion, and some of that energy will be lost to the additional drag the generator imposes on the system and to the less than 100% efficiency of the generator.

Not looking to put 100% charge back into the battery pack, but to put back what would he allowed by the entire regenerative package. Not looking to maintain a constant speed in theory or as you suggest, because that is impossible, but merely looking to use all available avenue's to generate some charge back into the system from alternate means, otherwise that are already available due to the motion of the vehicle as being a by product of that motion.

 

[AsherN]

Not looking to put 100% charge back into the battery pack, but to put back what would he allowed by the entire regenerative package. Not looking to maintain a constant speed in theory or as you suggest, because that is impossible, but merely looking to use all available avenue's to generate some charge back into the system from alternate means, otherwise that are already available due to the motion of the vehicle as being a by product of that motion.

what you don't seem to grasp is that unless you are trying to slow down the vehicle, putting energy back into the system will ALWAYS incur a loss, therefore not putting as much energy as was taken out. Going down a hill maintaining speed requires slowing down the vehicle (gravity), that can put the excess energy in the system. Same as braking where you are expending the vehicle kinetic energy. In a ICE, the braking converts the kinetic energy into heat on the brake parts. In constant or accelerating motion, energy will be lost trying to put it back.

 

[beagle9]

what you don't seem to grasp is that unless you are trying to slow down the vehicle, putting energy back into the system will ALWAYS incur a loss, therefore not putting as much energy as was taken out. Going down a hill maintaining speed requires slowing down the vehicle (gravity), that can put the excess energy in the system. Same as braking where you are expending the vehicle kinetic energy. In a ICE, the braking converts the kinetic energy into heat on the brake parts. In constant or accelerating motion, energy will be lost trying to put it back.

Ok, and so why can't the free wheel that is turning freely, otherwise that is mainly used for stabilizing the structure as it rolls down the road, not produce some form of (slight drag effect on the overall), electrically generated charge through a created highly efficient mechanism that can transfer that charge back to the secondary battery pack for a boost in replacement stored energy there ??

We have used paddle wheels in river's, we've used windmill's, ocean currents, hydro's powered by water flow based upon a primary energy source that is propelling the necessary flow that is then taken advantage of to create the alternative energy source that is then transformed into or used for another purpose as a side effect captured from the original source of energy that propels the forces that are then being tapped into.

In dams we have the primary energy source that is the water flow, and then we are taking that flow and creating a secondary energy source by way of that flow in which we then convert in a step down effect that puts that energy into a form that can be used and distributed. Now yes of course we have to depend on the rains to fill the reservoir in order to keep our flow strong or yes both energy sources will eventually die out due to drought etc.

So it's the same thing in effect, where as the water table drops, the flow decreases, and the generated power becomes less and less, but that which was stored might keep us going until the rains return hopefully in short order.

So for the max period in which the EV is at it's strongest, then the regenerative process will also be maximizing that period to create, but as the primary diminishes, so does the generating ability diminish in it's ability, but hopefully the generated power created during peak performance was saved in the secondary battery pack for the remaining miles projected to be completed once switched over too.

Yes at some point the over night charging station will come into play, but extending the miles is what it's all about during usage correct ?

 

[JoeMoma]

Ok, and so why can't the free wheel that is turning freely, otherwise that is mainly used for stabilizing the structure as it rolls down the road, not produce some form of (slight drag effect on the overall), electrically generated charge through a created highly efficient mechanism that can transfer that charge back to the secondary battery pack for a boost in replacement stored energy there ??

Using the "free wheel" to generate electricity puts a load on the free wheel and slows the car. In other words, the free wheel is no longer a free wheel. It takes away the kinetic energy of the moving car which is a good thing when you want to slow the car anyway; however this process takes more energy than it can later return because nothing is 100% efficient. Regenerative breaking is already a reality to slow the car and return some of that energy to the battery. But the "free wheel" isn't a source of free energy that can simply tapped into to provide extra energy to use later. The reason that wheel is turning is because energy from the battery turned an electric motor to power the car forward giving the car, the free moving wheels kinetic energy.

Using the "free wheel" to generate electricity to charge a battery would be like driving with the park break engaged. The energy that could be used from charging the second battery would always be less that the kinetic energy taken by slowing the car.

 

[beagle9]

Using the "free wheel" to generate electricity puts a load on the free wheel and slows the car. In other words, the free wheel is no longer a free wheel. It takes away the kinetic energy of the moving car which is a good thing when you want to slow the car anyway; however this process takes more energy than it can later return because nothing is 100% efficient. Regenerative breaking is already a reality to slow the car and return some of that energy to the battery. But the "free wheel" isn't a source of free energy that can simply tapped into to provide extra energy to use later. The reason that wheel is turning is because energy from the battery turned an electric motor to power the car forward giving the car, the free moving wheels kinetic energy.

Using the "free wheel" to generate electricity to charge a battery would be like driving with the park break engaged. The energy that could be used from charging the second battery would always be less that the kinetic energy taken by slowing the car.

Ok, but the secondary battery being charged by the free wheel in motion, otherwise that is charging by way of a highly unique easy to spin generator system that is operating off of the free wheel spinning, isn't being drained at the same time it's being charged. Wouldn't that make the secondary more easy to charge if nothing is coming against it or it's not being used while charging is taking place ???

Ok, so the vehicle has the power to power the vehicle with ease, and it can propel the vehicle to high speeds along with running various accessories while doing so, yet it can't spare or sacrifice a small amount of it's resources to power a charging system that would be directed at recharging a battery that is now idled or separated from the power side in order for the recharge to take place ?

In summary - We start the trip with two fully charged batteries (one primary and one secondary). The vehicle is slated to go 150 miles on the primary. Then the secondary is switched over too therefore releasing the primary from the main in order to receive recharge that is conducive to the capabilities of the charging apparatus that is driven by the wheel spin on the free wheel (non-drive wheel) rolling.

Ok, so let's say the charging apparatus doesn't have the capabilities of the at home charging station of course, because it can't compete with the powered outlet that has no resistance against it when the vehicle is in dock being charged, but it can restore in route some of the power to the primary without sacrificing to much in the powering of the vehicle when doing so correct ?

Hmmm, maybe the charger or generator if not used to charge the secondary battery, could power various accessories on the vehicle otherwise making it a super luxury model due to those powered accessories ?

What does the air conditioner run off of, because that's got to be a major drain to a system ?

 

[JoeMoma]

highly unique easy to spin generator system

No! No! No! You are not listening (well reading!.) There is no unique easy to spin generator system. An electric generator is basically an electric motor operating in reverse. In order to generate electricity, the electromagnetic fields used to make the current sets up a force counter to turning the generator, thus counter to the turning of the wheels. Generating current means creating a counter force that goes against the motion of the wheel. I'm not talking about the usual friction that is present with the "free rolling" wheel. I'm talking about a force that increases in proportion to the output current being generated.

Just as the input current powers the motor to propel the car forward, the generator applies a force load in the opposite direction, thus slowing the car. The higher the input current/voltage to the cars electric motor, the faster it goes., The higher the output current/voltage from the generator, the harder it is to turn and the more it loads up against the otherwise "free turning" wheel.

 

[beagle9]

No! No! No! You are not listening (well reading!.) There is no unique easy to spin generator system. An electric generator is basically an electric motor operating in reverse. In order to generate electricity, the electromagnetic fields used to make the current sets up a force counter to turning the generator, thus counter to the turning of the wheels. Generating current means creating a counter force that goes against the motion of the wheel. I'm not talking about the usual friction that is present with the "free rolling" wheel. I'm talking about a force that increases in proportion to the output current being generated.

Just as the input current powers the motor to propel the car forward, the generator applies a force load in the opposite direction, thus slowing the car. The higher the input current/voltage to the cars electric motor, the faster it goes., The higher the output current/voltage from the generator, the harder it is to turn and the more it loads up against the otherwise "free turning" wheel.

Wait, are you thinking that I'm talking about the electric motor that drives the vehicle or propels it forward, would be used in a duel usage to charge the secondary battery also ????

No, I'm talking about a small generator that is operated off of the free wheel that would be turning in order to operate that generator. Charging and powering are two different or separate systems on board the platform.

 

[JoeMoma]

Wait, are you thinking that I'm talking about the electric motor that drives the vehicle or propels it forward, would be used in a duel usage to charge the secondary battery also ????

No, I'm talking about a small generator that is operated off of the free wheel that would be turning in order to operate that generator. Charging and powering are two different or separate systems on board the platform.

No, I was not talking about the electric motor in duel usage.

You don't seem to realize the the conservation of energy is a zero sum game. The motor coverts the charge (energy) that is stored in the battery to kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is the energy of a moving body and equals 1/2 times the mass times its velocity squared. The generator in turn converts the kinetic energy of the moving car to electric energy and stores it in another battery. In other words the generator takes the kinetic energy of the car and turns it into electricity, the opposite of what the electric motor is doing. For every joule of energy produced by the generator to be stored into the second battery, the kinetic energy (the motion of the car) must be reduced. Well the mass of the car is constant, so taking kinetic energy from the car means reducing the cars velocity. The current from the battery to the electric motor pushes the car forward giving it kinetic energy (1/2 mV^2) The generator creates a force pushing against the forward motion of the car reducing the the velocity of the car. So having a generator is in effect like operating a motor in opposition to the motion of the car.

Every smidgen of energy/charge stored from the generator to the battery comes directly from reducing the kinetic energy (the velocity) of the car. Doing this is fine in situations that braking/slowing the car is needed, hence regenerative braking systems. But if braking isn't necessary then it's simply more efficient not to slow the car because you will never get back as much energy you take away.

Also note, a "small generator" small meaning much smaller than the electric motor , will charge the second battery much much slower than the first battery is being drained. In fact, the generator regardless of size will generate less energy to the second battery than output from the first battery, otherwise the car would never move.