'don't Impose Your Values' Argument Is Bigotry In Disguise

Said1

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Jan 26, 2004
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'DON'T IMPOSE YOUR VALUES' ARGUMENT IS BIGOTRY IN DISGUISE

By John Leo


I am struggling to understand the "don't impose your values" argument. According to this popular belief, it is wrong, and perhaps dangerous, to vote your moral convictions unless everybody else already shares them. Of course if everybody already shares them, no imposition would be necessary.



Nobody ever explains exactly what constitutes an offense in voting one's values, but the complaints appear to be aimed almost solely at conservative Christians, who are viewed as divisive when they try to "force their religious opinions on us." But as UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh writes, "That's what most lawmaking is -- trying to turn one's opinions on moral or pragmatic subjects into law."

Those who think Christians should keep their moral views to themselves, it seems to me, are logically bound to deplore many praiseworthy causes, including the abolition movement, which was mostly the work of the evangelical churches courageously applying Christian ideas of equality to the entrenched institution of s
lavery. The slaveowners, by the way, frequently used "don't impose your values" arguments, contending that whether they owned blacks or not was a personal and private decision and therefore nobody else's business. The civil rights movement, though an alliance of Christians, Jews and nonbelievers, was primarily the work of the black churches arguing from explicitly Christian principles.

The "don't impose" people make little effort to be consistent, deploring, for example, Catholics who act on their church's beliefs on abortion and stem cells, but not Catholics who follow the pope's insistence that rich nations share their wealth with poor nations, or his opposition to the death penalty and the invasion of Iraq (news - web sites).

If the "don't impose" people wish to mount a serious argument, they will have to attack "imposers" on both sides of the issues they discuss, not just their opponents. They will also have to explain why arguments that come from religious beliefs are less worthy than similar arguments that come from secular principles or simply from hunches or personal feelings. Nat Hentoff, a passionate opponent of abortion, isn't accused of imposing his opinions because he is an atheist. The same arguments and activity by a Christian activist would likely be seen as a violation of some sort.

Consistency would also require the "don't impose" supporters to speak up about coercive schemes intended to force believers to violate their own principles: anti-abortion doctors and nurses who are required in some jurisdictions to study abortion techniques; Catholic agencies forced to carry contraceptive coverage in health plans; evangelical college groups who believe homosexuality is a sin defunded or disbanded for not allowing gays to become officers in their groups; the pressure from the ACLU and others to force the Boy Scouts to admit gays, despite a Supreme Court ruling that the Scouts are entitled to go their own way.

Then there is the current case of Rocco Buttiglione, an Italian Christian Democrat who was named to be justice and home affairs commissioner of the European Union (news - web sites), then rejected for having an opinion that secular liberals find repugnant: He believes homosexuality is a sin. The Times of London attacked the hounding of Buttiglione "for holding personal beliefs that are at odds with the prevailing social orthodoxy ... despite a categorical statement that he would not let those beliefs intrude upon policy decisions." The Times said this is a clear attempt by Buttiglione's opponents to impose their views. No word of protest yet from "don't impose" proponents.

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True....

When someone says that you can't legislate morality they are wrong.

We legislate morality all the time and we call that "The Law"

If you still don't think we can't legislate morality, try this on for size....

1. Lie under oath and watch what happens to you if you're caught (unless of course you happen to be Bill or Hillary Clinton)

2. Kill someone and see if the police don't launch a homicide investigation.

3. Sexually harrass a co-worker ......

4. Drive while you're drunk

5. Beat your wife or girlfriend

All of these things are illegal... and why? Because at some time in the past, people felt that they were immoral enough that there should be laws to prohibit them.....
 
KarlMarx said:
True....When someone says that you can't legislate morality they are wrong. We legislate morality all the time and we call that "The Law" If you still don't think we can't legislate morality, try this on for size.... 1. Lie under oath and watch what happens to you if you're caught (unless of course you happen to be Bill or Hillary Clinton) 2. Kill someone and see if the police don't launch a homicide investigation. 3. Sexually harrass a co-worker ...... 4. Drive while you're drunk 5. Beat your wife or girlfriend All of these things are illegal... and why? Because at some time in the past, people felt that they were immoral enough that there should be laws to prohibit them.....

WRONG...

You are confusing the American justice system with moral laws as stated in Judeo-Christian bibles.

At some time in the past SOME PEOPLE FELT IMMORALITY and made laws to prohibit them?

How did 'some people feel' immorality and make laws?

Individual moral choices that do not harm others or oneself cannot be successfully legislated so that they can be enforced.
 
ajwps said:
WRONG...

You are confusing the American justice system with moral laws as stated in Judeo-Christian bibles.

At some time in the past SOME PEOPLE FELT IMMORALITY and made laws to prohibit them?

How did 'some people feel' immorality and make laws?

Individual moral choices that do not harm others or oneself cannot be successfully legislated so that they can be enforced.
Where did the American and British Justice System come from? They were based on the Laws of Moses....

On the Supreme Court Building there is a line of figures representing the great law givers of history and the one in the center is Moses.....
 
KarlMarx said:
Where did the American and British Justice System come from? They were based on the Laws of Moses....

On the Supreme Court Building there is a line of figures representing the great law givers of history and the one in the center is Moses.....

At last, one atheist who openly admits that humanity did not simply FEEL morality. Thank G-d.

Got-ya
 
The best way to demonstrate your values and convince someone that they have validity is by example. I have to say I really dont see much of the "christian ethic" put into practice. I would like to see the self sacrifice and brotherly love that is so preached about, put into action without so much self aggrandizement. I have seen it and I have great respect for those who use persuasion rather than force. "Imposing one's values" on someone else is a pointless and arrogant behavior that seldom, if ever, brings about change.
 
sagegirl said:
The best way to demonstrate your values and convince someone that they have validity is by example. I have to say I really dont see much of the "christian ethic" put into practice. I would like to see the self sacrifice and brotherly love that is so preached about, put into action without so much self aggrandizement.

Actually, you won't see about 95% of it. Many Christians and/or churches are volunteering time and resources to give to the needy without anyone knowing about it.
 
Blah blah blah...if you're going to say that to christians then say it also to the FRICKIN MUSLIMS who get to indoctrinate our kids in public school...sep. of church and state my ARSE....
 
gop_jeff said:
Actually, you won't see about 95% of it. Many Christians and/or churches are volunteering time and resources to give to the needy without anyone knowing about it.

I have seen this charity.....a friend was in a small neighborhood that got flooded, I was there to help with the clean up when a group of people from a small local church showed up....prepared to mop up mud, buckets in hand, and do some really dirty work. We were able to take care of own mess but they did help other neighbors....in addition they had brought in an rv and offered hot soup and sandwiches to everybody working to clean up. I can tell you that after working out in the cold, cleaning up the mess after a flood...and being offered a hot meal was truly a most generous and loving gesture. I will never forget those people, their kindness was really exceptional. My friend told me a couple of weeks later they came thru with bags of groceries and gifts...it was 2 weeks til christmas. I just cant imagine any more giving folks than these. To know that this loving act came from their hearts out of their dedication to their beliefs is a very powerful message.
 
ajwps said:
WRONG...

You are confusing the American justice system with moral laws as stated in Judeo-Christian bibles.

At some time in the past SOME PEOPLE FELT IMMORALITY and made laws to prohibit them?

How did 'some people feel' immorality and make laws?

Individual moral choices that do not harm others or oneself cannot be successfully legislated so that they can be enforced.

Your trying to do the impossible though, have laws without morality, the two are intertwined and will always be so. The American juducial system got a lot of it's laws from the Bible. Not killing, stealing, etc. There is no such moral or immoral act committed that doesn't affect others in some way. True the government cannot be in ones bedroom, thankfully as it doesn't belong there, however there are laws that prevent bigamy, some would say that is entering the bedroom, and those laws may not be enforced right away, but they are being prosecuted now in Utah. You can't legislate kids being nice to each other in the ball park, or on school grounds but guess what ther is new anti-bulying legislation being passed and enforced in schools, why because bullying is beleived to have led to school shootings...........
 
sagegirl said:
I have seen this charity.....a friend was in a small neighborhood that got flooded, I was there to help with the clean up when a group of people from a small local church showed up....prepared to mop up mud, buckets in hand, and do some really dirty work. We were able to take care of own mess but they did help other neighbors....in addition they had brought in an rv and offered hot soup and sandwiches to everybody working to clean up. I can tell you that after working out in the cold, cleaning up the mess after a flood...and being offered a hot meal was truly a most generous and loving gesture. I will never forget those people, their kindness was really exceptional. My friend told me a couple of weeks later they came thru with bags of groceries and gifts...it was 2 weeks til christmas. I just cant imagine any more giving folks than these. To know that this loving act came from their hearts out of their dedication to their beliefs is a very powerful message.


That is very true, these people truly live what they preach, and never ask for anything in return.
 
I think the bigger picture is weather your morals actually afect other people. Examples ...

If I want to smoke reefer, what business is that of the government's ? It grows naturally and was legal until fairly recently. I know it's not sold by Merk, but I'm gonna get my hands on it anyway and the government is going to screw up my whole life if they find out. Meanwhile I can go to the liquor store and pick up a fifth of Jim and a pack of Luckys .. all toxic. Since Marijuana is the least physically adictive of the 3, it's gotta make you wonder why our elected government would ruin so many lives over a product that the public obviously wants. Tax it, who cares ?! This is an example of something that I can do at home (we're not talking driving or operating heavy machinery on dope) that effects no one else any more than alcohol would and would certainly be less addictive than cigarettes the the government is trying to deprive me of.

How about this rule of thumb for our lawmakers ...
If you happen not to do it, or not to like it, but a part of the population does enjoy it responsibly, than just let it be. The world does not revolve around you or me or any other individual's or individual group's idea of what right or wrong. That's a slippery slope that leads to that word "God". I am Jewish and believe in God wholehearedly, but he has no place in politics. God would not want me to use his name to force my opinions upon others. That is the definition of "Thou shall not take God's name in vain".
So get your stupid laws like "blue ribbon" ones off my ass ? This applies to abortion as well. If God has such a problem with these women then let him judge. Or else don't pretend that there is seperation of church and state in this country.
 
Will someone please post on this board the place in the Constitution of The United States that says we have to have separation of church and states? The only words I can find about religion is as follows. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." I can't find where Congress has made any kind of laws whether for or against religion, and if not, this clause gives the absolute right to pray, and even teach religion in schools if one so desires. Also, I'm glad we are living in a democracy, but how did the word "Democracy" come about in every day use? It's not in the Constitution either.
 
DaTroof said:
I think the bigger picture is weather your morals actually afect other people. Examples ...

If I want to smoke reefer, what business is that of the government's ? It grows naturally and was legal until fairly recently. I know it's not sold by Merk, but I'm gonna get my hands on it anyway and the government is going to screw up my whole life if they find out. Meanwhile I can go to the liquor store and pick up a fifth of Jim and a pack of Luckys .. all toxic. Since Marijuana is the least physically adictive of the 3, it's gotta make you wonder why our elected government would ruin so many lives over a product that the public obviously wants. Tax it, who cares ?! This is an example of something that I can do at home (we're not talking driving or operating heavy machinery on dope) that effects no one else any more than alcohol would and would certainly be less addictive than cigarettes the the government is trying to deprive me of.

How about this rule of thumb for our lawmakers ...
If you happen not to do it, or not to like it, but a part of the population does enjoy it responsibly, than just let it be. The world does not revolve around you or me or any other individual's or individual group's idea of what right or wrong. That's a slippery slope that leads to that word "God". I am Jewish and believe in God wholehearedly, but he has no place in politics. God would not want me to use his name to force my opinions upon others. That is the definition of "Thou shall not take God's name in vain".
So get your stupid laws like "blue ribbon" ones off my ass ? This applies to abortion as well. If God has such a problem with these women then let him judge. Or else don't pretend that there is seperation of church and state in this country.

There is no seperation of church and state. Read the constitution!! It says something quite different, secondly I couldn't give a fig if someone smokes pot in their home for medical purposes until..... they get in their car and having impaired judgement run a red light and kill a mom and her kids..........Yes that's a problem, so if you would like to make pot legal do so with the stipulation that no one can drive under the influence.... which will be just as hard to enforce as drunk driving..........So yes all our actions affect others!!!!!!!!!
 
DaTroof said:
I think the bigger picture is weather your morals actually afect other people. Examples ...

If I want to smoke reefer, what business is that of the government's ? It grows naturally and was legal until fairly recently. I know it's not sold by Merk, but I'm gonna get my hands on it anyway and the government is going to screw up my whole life if they find out. Meanwhile I can go to the liquor store and pick up a fifth of Jim and a pack of Luckys .. all toxic. Since Marijuana is the least physically adictive of the 3, it's gotta make you wonder why our elected government would ruin so many lives over a product that the public obviously wants. Tax it, who cares ?! This is an example of something that I can do at home (we're not talking driving or operating heavy machinery on dope) that effects no one else any more than alcohol would and would certainly be less addictive than cigarettes the the government is trying to deprive me of.

How about this rule of thumb for our lawmakers ...
If you happen not to do it, or not to like it, but a part of the population does enjoy it responsibly, than just let it be. The world does not revolve around you or me or any other individual's or individual group's idea of what right or wrong. That's a slippery slope that leads to that word "God". I am Jewish and believe in God wholehearedly, but he has no place in politics. God would not want me to use his name to force my opinions upon others. That is the definition of "Thou shall not take God's name in vain".
So get your stupid laws like "blue ribbon" ones off my ass ? This applies to abortion as well. If God has such a problem with these women then let him judge. Or else don't pretend that there is seperation of church and state in this country.
What makes you think it is just the government that wants to keep MJ illegal ?
 
Bonnie said:
There is no seperation of church and state.QUOTE]

Bonnie,
A separation of church and state most certainly exists both in the constitution and in the broader corpus of American law. The phrase "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is often overlooked. The guarantee of unmolested religious practice necessitates a separation of church and state. Suppose an individual is enrolled in the public school system. Further suppose that this person practices a religion that prohibits the worship of another god (has many religions do in fact do). Everyday class begins its day by reciting a prayer. The prayer recited in class belongs to a different religious group than the individual. Obviously this presents a problem for the individual. Their religion prohibits the worship of another god, yet their class requires them to do so. In this manner the person’s constitutional right to "free exercise" has been abridged.
A rational counter argument would of course suggest that this person be not required to participate in the morning recitation. However upon closer examination such an argument does not hold water and this is where the clause "No law respecting an establishment of religion" is of critical importance. Let us return to the public school classroom. The recitation of the morning prayer is a de facto endorsement of one religion over another. In choosing to recite one faith's prayer over another the teacher, an agent of the government, has chosen one faith over another.
The separation of church in and state stems from the fact that the inclusion of any religion in the practice of governing is a de facto endorsement of that religion; moreover, such an endorsement is a direct affront to the "free exercise" clause.
The court has long recognized the separation of church and state as a fundamental part of the constitution. If you would like to read more about the subject I would advise that you examine the following cases
Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. Hialeah 508 U.S. 520 (1993) Docket Number: 91-948

Abington Township v. Schempp 374 U.S. 203 (1963) Docket Number: 142

Further readings can be found at www.Oyez.org this is site run by a university law school and reports the activities of the Supreme Court.
 
Huckleburry said:
Bonnie said:
There is no seperation of church and state.QUOTE]

Bonnie,
A separation of church and state most certainly exists both in the constitution and in the broader corpus of American law. The phrase "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is often overlooked. The guarantee of unmolested religious practice necessitates a separation of church and state. Suppose an individual is enrolled in the public school system. Further suppose that this person practices a religion that prohibits the worship of another god (has many religions do in fact do). Everyday class begins its day by reciting a prayer. The prayer recited in class belongs to a different religious group than the individual. Obviously this presents a problem for the individual. Their religion prohibits the worship of another god, yet their class requires them to do so. In this manner the person’s constitutional right to "free exercise" has been abridged.
A rational counter argument would of course suggest that this person be not required to participate in the morning recitation. However upon closer examination such an argument does not hold water and this is where the clause "No law respecting an establishment of religion" is of critical importance. Let us return to the public school classroom. The recitation of the morning prayer is a de facto endorsement of one religion over another. In choosing to recite one faith's prayer over another the teacher, an agent of the government, has chosen one faith over another.
The separation of church in and state stems from the fact that the inclusion of any religion in the practice of governing is a de facto endorsement of that religion; moreover, such an endorsement is a direct affront to the "free exercise" clause.
The court has long recognized the separation of church and state as a fundamental part of the constitution. If you would like to read more about the subject I would advise that you examine the following cases
Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. Hialeah 508 U.S. 520 (1993) Docket Number: 91-948

Abington Township v. Schempp 374 U.S. 203 (1963) Docket Number: 142

Further readings can be found at www.Oyez.org this is site run by a university law school and reports the activities of the Supreme Court.

Huck, I tend to agree with you about prayer in PUBLIC schools. However, you libs take it too far, you seem to think it gives you the RIGHT to a president who is an atheist. Bush is NOT going to implement a theocracy.
 
Hucleberry, I am certainly not suggesting teacher led prayer in schools, but certianly a moment of silence would be perfectly reasonable, to bar everything completley is the governemnt going the other way in obstructing religious expression. The constitution states the governemnt will make no laws establishing or obstructing any religion or the free and public expression of faith. What we have now are some in governement, and activists in the judicial branch of government going too far in carrying that to mean all public expression of faith as well, this was never intended by our founding fathers.
 
Right wings, the actions of private schools are absolutely that, private. Also, while I may not prescribe to a particular faith, I am very faithful person. I do not think that the president need be an atheist to be an effective and good president, because my faith is an intensely personal aspect of my life I am naturally inclined to identify with politicians who refrain from including religious beliefs in their political rhetoric.

Bonnie, the problem with public displays of faith is again that they are de facto endorsements of particular religious ideologies. In addition they have practical implications that, in the current geo political climate, can be exceedingly damaging both domestically, and internationally. You are correct in saying the founders never envisioned the separation of church and state to be taken to its current extreme. (Extreme being a very subjective term) However the founders also never envisioned the extreme transformation of our nation from that of a relatively homogenous population with similar political and religious ideologies, to the current heterogeneous America with a wide variety of political and religious ideologies. Whether or not they would agree with this new America is an empirical question of little relevance. What is certain is that the founders were, above all, concerned with the unity of the nation. (Hamilton argued against political parties in the federal papers because of their intrinsically divisive nature) To this end I think they would support the extreme separation of church and state because religion is such a divisive issue. Some of the extreme hatred of bush (logical or not) stems from his religious view point, and the perception that he is trying to force his religious beliefs on others. Internationally public displays of faith can also have negative effects. Many of the European nations are extremely secular. In their view Bush's public declaration of faith, and the stated role he allows his faith to play in broader policy decisions, is no different from that of leaders of Hammas, or the Iraqi insurgents. I am not arguing that such a view is correct and indeed the validity of such a view is of little importance. The fact is that such a view persists. Strong allies are integral to victory in the war on terror (which I whole heartedly support). There can be little doubt that the war in Iraq would be easier if it had broad international support. Indeed there are few areas in the war on terror that would not benefit greatly from broad international support. If the public display of religion is an impediment to securing strong allies and in turn the expedient victory in the war on terror, than it becomes a question of priorities. Is victory in the war on terror more or less important than the public display of our faith? I feel that the war on terror is more important but again mine is a personal and quiet sense of faith.

Finally subjecting the separation of church and state to some subjective test is a very dangerous path to tread. How much God is appropriate is a divisive issue that elicits strong reactions on both sides. Why is it acceptable to use public school voucher dollars to enroll your child in catholic school but unacceptable to use public funds to support institutions that view abortion as an acceptable alternative to child birth. This is essentially a question of how much God is acceptable in public life, and as I am sure you are aware, both of these issues elicit strong reactions from both sides of the fence. From an economic standpoint both should be permissible. I am a strict constructionist I am a strong believer in states rights and in limiting the interpretation of the Constitution. I do believe though that the separation of church and state must be absolute. The divisive nature of religion requires it.
 

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