Zone1 Does Paul receive enough credit in Christianity?

[shockedcanadian]

He really was a loyal servant who fearlessly spread the gospel,risking his life and fully a.Believer.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I see Paul as the usurper, myself.


He was Saul, persecuting Jesus' followers then Jesus died and all of a sudden, Paul was controlling a whole new movement.

 

[shockedcanadian]

I see Paul as the usurper, myself.


He was Saul, persecuting Jesus' followers then Jesus died and all of a sudden, Paul was controlling a whole new movement.

Really? I've never heard this position before. All I have ever read is his contribution to spreading the gospel even in courtrooms!

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Really? I've never heard this position before. All I have ever read is his contribution to spreading the gospel even in courtrooms!

Paul as Usurper of Christianity?

Source: Paul as Usurper of Christianity? « Common Treasury. I am aware that there has been much discussion in the past on the alleged contrasting visions of Jesus in the gospels (especially Matthew…

redletterliving.net

 

[luiza]

He really was a loyal servant who fearlessly spread the gospel,risking his life and fully a.Believer.

He re-wrote everything to suit himself and produced a thriller to interest the Romans with its fake uplifting end of story promises.

The greatest Fake News writer in modern times .

 

[Votto]

He really was a loyal servant who fearlessly spread the gospel,risking his life and fully a.Believer.

He did not risk his life, he gave his life and was murdered himself for a cause he previously tried to oppress and murdered others for, marking one of the most amazing conversions in human history.

But this is part of why he was chosen. Those who are forgiven much tends to love God that much more, causing him to be more devoted than the average follower of Christ. And he had the background and Jewish education that made him very articulate and able to write most of the NT.

And lastly, it was good for the apostles to come face to face with learning true forgiveness for a man who had once sought to take their very lives.

 

[Innocynioc]

I too see Paul as an usurper. He was not chosen by Christ as the twelve disciples were. Christianity was a religion of love and forgiveness before Paul transformed into a religion of wrath and authoritarianism. I feel that Paul is due no credit.

 

[ding]

Wow, these are some pretty harsh comments.

 

[norwegen]

Paul was no different than Josephus or Jesus in their portrayal of the Jews.

Josephus

I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed. (Wars 5.13.6)​

For [Zealot] was the name they went by, as if they were zealous in good undertakings, and were not rather zealous in the worst actions, and extravagant in them beyond the example of others. (Wars 4.3.9)​

[Y]et are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. (Wars 6.3.4)​

Accordingly they made no longer any delay, nor took any deliberation in their enormous practices, but made use of the shortest methods for all their executions, and what they had once resolved upon, they put in practice sooner than anyone could imagine; but their thirst was chiefly after the blood of valiant men, and men of good families; the one sort of whom they destroyed out of envy, the other out of fear; for they thought their whole security lay in leaving no potent men alive. (Wars 4.6.1)​

The Idumeans also strove with these men who should be guilty of the greatest madness! for they [all], vile wretches as they were, cut the throats of the high priests, that so no part of a religious regard to God might be preserved; they thence proceeded to destroy utterly the least remains of a political government, and introduced the most complete scene of iniquity in all instances that were practicable; under which scene that sort of people that were called Zealots grew up, and who indeed corresponded to the name, for they imitated every wicked work; nor, if their memory suggested any evil thing that had formerly been done, did they avoid zealously to pursue the same; and although they gave themselves that name from their zeal for what was good, yet did it agree to them only by way of irony, on account of those they had unjustly treated by their wild and brutish disposition, or as thinking the greatest mischiefs to be the greatest good. (Wars 7.8.1)​

That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness that this was, from the beginning of the world. (Wars 5.10.5)​

Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose upon the people. (Wars 6.5.2)​

Jesus

’In vain do they worship me,​

teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’​

You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”​

​

And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! (Mk 7:7-9)​

You brood of vipers. (Mt 12:34)​

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! (Mt 23:13, 23, 25, 27, 29)​

Woe to you, blind guides. (Mt 23:16)​

I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie . . . (Rv 3:9)​

Paul

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. (2 Thes 2:7)​

What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? (1 Cor 15:32, cf. Acts 19:8-10)​

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. (Rom 1:21-23)​

And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. (2 Cor 11:12-13)​

All three – Josephus, Jesus, Paul – wrote of the Jews as beasts, liars, and hypocrites. Not all Jews, of course; only that large, militant, rebellious generation of them who taught a corrupted Moses and wreaked havoc on their countrymen.

One stark difference, of course, is that Josephus recorded his observations after their destruction while Paul’s and Jesus’ observations (or prophecies, perhaps) were recorded as preceding it.

 

[ding]

Paul's epistles (letters) have had enormous influence on Christian theology, especially on the relationship between God the Father and Jesus, and on the mystical human relationship with the divine.

 

[norwegen]

He re-wrote everything to suit himself and produced a thriller to interest the Romans with its fake uplifting end of story promises.

You don't say. According to Luke and his truly, the Romans - Agrippa and Festus - had no interest in him at all (Acts 25 and 26). They were not Jews, you see.

The greatest Fake News writer in modern times .

Modern times, eh.

 

[Vastator]

He really was a loyal servant who fearlessly spread the gospel,risking his life and fully a.Believer.

Probably far too much credit. As many “Christians seem to revere, and exalt Saul; more than Christ. They hang on Paul/Sauls every word, flawed mortal he was… And discard many of the words of Jesus himself.

 

[ding]

Probably far too much credit. As many “Christians seem to revere, and exalt Saul; more than Christ. They hang on Paul/Sauls every word, flawed mortal he was… And discard many of the words of Jesus himself.

I don't see Paul as more important than Jesus and I doubt Paul thought he was more important than Jesus.

I'm not aware of anyone else's effort to further Christianity more than Paul though. Is there something I am missing? Is there someone else who was involved in the early Christian communities that I should consider? I'm not saying there isn't. I'm just not aware of any of Paul's contemporaries (Peter, James the Just or John the Apostle) holding different views or doing as much work furthering the faith like Paul.

 

[luiza]

the relationship between God the Father and Jesus, and on the mystical human relationship with the divine

Paul invented the Trinity and now the Gullibles cannot accept that they are repeating a Fairy Story.
They will even tell you that they have seen / heard / felt it.

All made up , yet they pledge their undying faith in it . And get very ratty if you point out to them that they are technically mad as march hares .

 

[Vastator]

I don't see Paul as more important than Jesus and I doubt Paul thought he was more important than Jesus.

I'm not aware of anyone else's effort to further Christianity more than Paul though. Is there something I am missing? Is there someone else who was involved in the early Christian communities that I should consider? I'm not saying there isn't. I'm just not aware of any of Paul's contemporaries (Peter, James the Just or John the Apostle) holding different views or doing as much work furthering the faith like Paul.

Probably not a convo you want, but… When I hear “Christians” quote Saul, more often than Jesus… It throws red flags. When they misquote, or take Saul out of context in order to find solace in disobeying Jesus actual words..? It starts throwing Red Flares. And I see it often.

 

[ding]

Paul invented the Trinity and now the Gullibles cannot accept that they are repeating a Fairy Story.
They will even tell you that they have seen / heard / felt it.

All made up , yet they pledge their undying faith in it . And get very ratty if you point out to them that they are technically mad as march hares .

The Trinity isn't a mystery to be solved. It's a relationship to be entered into... a very powerful relationship. So, no. Paul didn't invent the Trinity.

 

[norwegen]

I don't see Paul as more important than Jesus and I doubt Paul thought he was more important than Jesus.

I'm not aware of anyone else's effort to further Christianity more than Paul though. Is there something I am missing? Is there someone else who was involved in the early Christian communities that I should consider? I'm not saying there isn't. I'm just not aware of any of Paul's contemporaries (Peter, James the Just or John the Apostle) holding different views or doing as much work furthering the faith like Paul.

The apostles and primitive Christians often confirmed their views through correspondences. Perhaps thousands of them in the first century alone. Paul once confirmed his with two disciples in person.

Shortly after the crucifixion, at least 14 years before writing Galatians and soon after his encounter with Christ on his way to Damascus, Paul met with Peter and James for 15 days (Gal 1:18-2:1). All three of these men for their own reasons once doubted Christ’s authenticity. James, and indeed Jesus’ entire family, believed him to be insane (Mk 3:20-21). Peter valued his own well-being more than his relationship with Christ when he denied him. And Paul, of course, once persecuted Christ’s followers. But in Galatia at this juncture, three more devoted men could scarcely be found.

What changed their minds about Jesus? In their 15 days together, what might Paul, Peter, and James have talked about to validate and synchronize their gospel messages? Paul shared with them his take on the gospel that he had been preaching to the Gentiles. He wanted to know that he had not been preaching an errant word (Gal 2:2). He subsequently realized he had not been, for James and Peter added nothing to his message and extended to him the right hand of fellowship (Gal 2:6-9). They had all been carrying the same message of the kingdom; they had all been preaching gospel truth.

 

[ding]

Probably not a convo you want, but… When I hear “Christians” quote Saul, more often than Jesus… It throws red flags. When they misquote, or take Saul out of context in order to find solace in disobeying Jesus actual words..? It starts throwing Red Flares. And I see it often.

That doesn't sound like it's Paul's fault that they did that. He's been dead quite some time.

 

[norwegen]

Probably not a convo you want, but… When I hear “Christians” quote Saul, more often than Jesus… It throws red flags. When they misquote, or take Saul out of context in order to find solace in disobeying Jesus actual words..? It starts throwing Red Flares. And I see it often.

When people take Paul out of context, they call him a usurper.

 

[ding]

When people take Paul out of context, they call him a usurper.

I don't know if that's why. The ones posting here who claim Paul was a usurper seem to be making the argument that what he wrote in his letters were not what Jesus taught. Lot's of innuendo but not much credible evidence presented to support it. As near as I can tell the Epistles are true to the gospels. So maybe they did take Paul out of context. Or Jesus.