Demo-craven

Jackass

Active Member
Aug 29, 2003
1,969
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36
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I dont usually post in these sections..but thought this was interesting....

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/10076.htm
>
> DEMO-CRAVEN
>
> November 6, 2003 -- AT first glance, the memo just looks like Politics 101
> - the work of a Democratic staffer advising his colleagues on how to gain
> partisan advantage over the Republicans. But there's a reason why the
> document that leaked on Tuesday from the staff of the Senate Select
> Committee on Intelligence is creating a firestorm in Washington.
>
> Some Democrats desperate to stay on offense in the war over the Iraq war
> have now revealed just how nakedly and cynically partisan their line of
> attack against the Bush administration has been.
>
> The document lays out a Machiavellian strategy for the committee's
> Democrats to gull, use and then turn on the committee's Republicans.
>
> It's a fascinating and clever piece of political strategizing. It says, in
> essence, that Democrats should con the committee's chairman, Sen. Pat
> Roberts (R-Kan.), into cooperating with an aggressive political fishing
> expedition.
>
> Democrats should "pull the majority along as far as we can on issues that
> may lead to major new disclosures regarding improper or questionable
> conduct by administration officials . . . The fact that the chairman
> [Roberts] supports our investigations into these offices and co-signs our
> requests for information is helpful and potentially crucial. We don't know
> what we will find, but our prospects for getting the access we seek is far
> greater when we have the backing of the majority."
>
> Oh, and they'll do some leaking to reporters, even without proof of
> administration wrongdoing. "We can verbally mention some of the intriguing
> leads we are pursuing," the memo says - meaning that as part of their
> strategy, Democratic staffers are already anticipating the phone calls
they
> will make to Walter Pincus of The Washington Post and Seymour Hersh of The
> New Yorker with all kinds of unsubstantiated innuendo.
>
> All the while, as they act as though they are working in a bipartisan
> fashion with Roberts and the Republicans, Democrats will be preparing to
> declare the committee's efforts invalid and politicized. The Democrats,
the
> memo says, intend eventually to "castigate the majority for seeking to
> limit the scope of the inquiry."
>
> Let's try to follow the logic here. Democrats on the committee are already
> planning to invalidate an investigation in which they will serve as active
> participants. Sounds nuts, until you find out that what they really want
to
> do is give themselves political cover to "launch an independent
> investigation when it becomes clear we have exhausted the opportunity to
> usefully collaborate with the majority."
>
> The purpose of such an "independent investigation" is purely and simply to
> trash Bush in time for the election: "We can pull the trigger on an
> independent investigation at any time - but we can only do so once. The
> best time to do so will probably be next year." Next year, of course,
being
> the election year.
>
> "We have an important role to play in the revealing the misleading - if
not
> flagrantly dishonest methods and motives - of the senior administration
> officials who made the case for a unilateral, preemptive war," the memo
> concludes. "The approach outline above seems to offer the best prospect
for
> exposing the administration's dubious motives and methods."
>
> Welcome to the world of the prejudged conclusion, in which the purpose of
> the investigation is not determining the truth but "exposing the
> administration's dubious motives and methods."
>
> In practical terms, these Democrats have now screwed themselves. Pat
> Roberts now knows what his colleagues across the aisle intend, and what
> Democratic staffers want to do to him. He has no reason hereafter to serve
> as front man for the Democratic fishing expedition.
>
> But there's a more disturbing aspect to this story than the revelation of
> cynical Democratic partisanship. The structure of the Senate Select
> Committee on Intelligence is unique, in part to ensure that staffers and
> senators do not misuse the classified material to which they are given
access.
>
> That kind of thing happened during the 1970s, when House and Senate
> committees really did damage to the nation's intelligence capacity. The
> Senate Select Committee was created in the wake of those fiascoes to try
to
> insulate both senators and staff from the temptation to politicize
> intelligence.
>
> The structure was meant to create a bipartisan approach. As a result,
> senators who belong to the Senate's minority party actually have nearly
> equal power with the senators in the majority, and - unlike any other
> Senate committee - the ranking minority senator actually has the authority
> to run the committee when the chairman is away.
>
> With a few exceptions over the years, the Senate Select Committee has been
> an oasis of reason in an increasing polarized and partisan Washington. Not
> any more. In their desperate hunger to destroy George W. Bush, they have
> destroyed the oasis.
 
no more suprised than I was at the ken starr fishing expo. Time to clean both dem's and republicans out of office and get some folks in there that work together for the good of the country.
 
Originally posted by Aquarian
no more suprised than I was at the ken starr fishing expo. Time to clean both dem's and republicans out of office and get some folks in there that work together for the good of the country.

:clap:
 
:clap: I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, partisan polarization in this country is growing by the month. The latest Pew poll shows the largest gap between Republicans and Democrats in Presidential approval and social values for at least 15 years.
 
Well, you know what they say - power corrupts.
I don't think getting rid of the current parties
would solve the problems for long.

There are a lot of people who switch over to third parties
or declare themselves independent out of disgust.
Their party doesn't represent them fully or
party members are corrupt.

Well, America now stands for a lot of things I don't
stand for, and it's full of a lot of corruption, but
I won't leave it. I love it and I'll do my best
to make it the best that I can. And that's
what I think we ought to do with our parties.

Oppose the corruption inside. Fight it. Use your
influence to try to mold your party into
what it should be. Do your best to clean
your party up before you think of leaving.

But if it's rotten to the core and nothing you
do will ever save it or point it towards change,
well, then perhaps it is time to give up.

I'm not ready yet, though :)
 
a belated welcome to the board from me, AmericanLib and XP.

XP,
What do you recommend for "fighting corruption from the inside"? My problem with the political parties is that they are both beholden to big business, and as a result, there is no real difference in policy between the two. I am decidedly on the "left" of the political spectrum, but to my eyes, Clinton was no better than Bush, and i'm not at all convinced that the war in Iraq wouldn't have materialized under Clinton. (Even if he didn't have a penchant with spouting senseless drivel; his penchant was for telling lies and looking sincere.)

It seems to me that even before any serious reform of the parties can take place, the preferential position of corporations in American Politics must be seriously reduced. Enron was a perfect example: they were receiving unprecedented aid and lifting of environmental and interstate trade regulations under Clinton, but as soon as Bush was elected, Enron was getting presidential invitations to come hang at the whitehouse, and it wasn't until their unraveling started to become public that politicians on both sides of the aisle started to distance themselves from Enron.

Apart from that, the two party system is a matter of tradition that developed well after the drafting of the Constitution, and I am not at all convinced that a two party system is the best to serve a nation so plural in its diversity. How can two parties represent such a variety of views and needs? It's impossible; the two party system turns interest away from local interests and consolidates power at the federal level. Meanwhile, despite the rift between Republican and Democratic voters, nothing changes in politics, and while people who have a false sense that by voting for the candidate of the other party could fix things they don't like about a current administration, in reality that sense of change is just an illusion. The only aspect which changes is into whose pockets flow the profits. Meanwhile, outsiders who have a real vision for change aren't taken seriously because they don't have the clout of the traditional power syndicates.

Obviously, I'm not advocating "giving up", as I see almost infinite potential for rectifying the problem, an abandonment of the two party system and Corporate influence as it has developed of the last 150 years couldn't be farther from a call to "give up", to the contrary, a more powerful call for Americans to participate I cannot imagine.
 
Thanks for the welcome :)

In answer:
Look at Howard Dean's quick rise to the top. His campaign made use of the Internet and appealed to more of the common
people than most of the other candidates did. That's one way
to fight. Support candidates in the party who do stand for
what you believe in. Fund them if you can, at least campaign
if you can't. Write letters. Make phone calls. Have debates.
Write editorials. Keep speaking out.

Businesses role extends only as far as the public lets it.
Anyone can run for president. The public tends to vote for
the best funded candidates, because they've got the
glamour and because it's easier to get information on them.

But with the internet, you can make information readily
available to a lot of people - and popularity itself gets
people air time and TV time. The media will cover whatever
it thinks will be big - that's in the public's hands.

The Federalist Papers, written by James Madison, will
explain to you why we have and need a two-party system.
The idea was really there from the time of founding.
You should be able to find a copy online.

Having multiple parties seems less effective to me.
If you look at places like Macedonia and Sweden,
I think you'll see what I mean. In order for one
party to get enough votes to win, it must make
consessions to radicals who would not be elected
by sensible people. The results are usually not very
pretty, and the general population is not represented
half so well as it would've been in a two party system.

A two party system ensures that the majority in a
country is represented, while allowing for some
debate. Major parties do not, however, have to
make radical concessions.

Madison explains things better than I can, though.
 
Aw, jeez, XP... you're not gonna make me read all 85 of the Federalist Papers, are you? Do i only have to read the ones Madison wrote? That, at least, would narrow it down to 15. Or should we include the ones whose author is in question, between Hamilton and Madison? That would probably double my assignment to 30... :D

Why do I get the feeling I'm being cowed in with the "radicals"?

I don't know ANYTHING about politics in Macedonia, so I'm not going to bring it up. But I have been paying close attention to Sweden, and their politics in general. So, if sensible people wouldn't vote for the "radicals", how come they get elected? Oh yeah, they get a percentage representation, just like they get a percentage of the votes. Makes sense to me. Actually, that's how it works here in Spain too. And according to you, ANYONE can run for president in the US (assuming, of course, they get the Repub or Dem nomination... I guess you meant anyone could run for the party nomination...) What then is to prevent a radical from running in the US? Frankly, I'd say we GOT a radical for president. It's funny: here in Europe, they joke how there's two political parties in the US: one representing the "right", and the other, the "far right". Accept nobody laughs when someone tells it because everyone recognizes it as the truth.

Businesses role extends only as far as the public lets it.

But we should only have two presidential candidates?

Doesn't that just make it way too easy for big business to get in bed with BOTH candidates: seems like they win either way. And how are we supposed to prevent it? As soon as they sign on to a party, (i.e. receive all that fundraising power...) they are irrevocably in the bed. They owe owe owe, and there's no getting around it.

My post is sounding a bit further out than I actually am. I think the only help for our country is convincing lots of average joes to run for political office. I plan to participate if I ever get around to coming back, and get established enough that a few people around might recognize me. Something small, like the education board, or something. I think that's where the people start taking it back. For the people, by the people... what a grand ol' dream. When the people are voting for real people, then I'll be satisfied. And if that can be accomplished in a two party system, well that's just fine with me. Of course, Dean getting the dem nod would be a good step in building my confidence. Getting to watch him tapdance in Washington would be the next step, though of course, I reserve judgement 'till the end of his four years. But hey, we're already so far off in hypothetical land, I'm going to go ahead and click my ruby heels... before I start wanting to see what Ralph could do in Washington.
 
I guarantee they'll build character! Besides! They're short and
well worth a read! It's not as if I'm asking you to read War and
Peace! But if you prefer I'll dig through and pick out the
ones that deal with parties :p The weekend is here, so I'll have
the time.

No, I didn't mean to classify you as a radical. I haven't debated
with you long enough to know. I was just summing up Madison's
basic theory.

Oh yeah, they get a percentage representation, just like
they get a percentage of the votes.

Having a small number of parties is useful for a number of things.
Organization is one of them. You want to have some opposition,
of course, so that there are checks and balances, but you don't
want your government to become so slow that nothing gets done.

When there are too many parties involved in government, that
is one of the dangers. The other main danger I mentioned to you
before, the candidates who end up making concessions to
radicals. This undermines the system of checks and balances.
Parties who realize they can't get anything done by arguing end
up agreeing to things they otherwise would not have, even if
those things hurt their people. Such is the case with Macedonian
politics.

Another danger is chaos. It is possible to have so many parties
involved that no one really knows what's going on. This again
undermines the process again. You can't check things you can't
see.


So I really do think that having two main parties is the most
efficient way to do things. That said, anyone CAN run. They don't
need the nomination from the two major parties. They can make
up their own and throw their hats in the ring.

We have more parties than two. They're just not as
popular. The independent party, the Jefferson party,
the Southern party, The Green Party, etc, etc. We don't
bar others from running.

The one thing that really does put third party candidates
at a disadvantage, besides social response, is the set up
of congress. Third parties have less power in congress
than members of the two major parties because they
don't have the backing of a majority or minority leader.

For the most part, though, it's a matter of social preference.

One last thing: You're welcome to Dean and Nader!
Keep them in Spain for us ;)
 
I have read a significant portion of the Federalist Papers, and I have alway found that the Federalist Papers show (in as much as the Federalist Papers represent the thinking of some of the founding fathers, and not just an interesting example of late 18th century propaganda) that our current system is an aberation. I do not recall the suggestion from the Federalist Papers that we should have a two party system, nor have I been able to find any reference to such an idea using the searches that are available on the internet. (Though of course i would be happy to be enlightened, I wouldn't ask you to waste your weekend attempting to do it.) It may be said that to the extent that Hamilton, Madison and Jay seemed to believe that the Constitution would not allow itself to be dominated by the interests of a few without regard for the masses, my argument would be that they have been proved wrong, and that an innovation is required to rectify the situation.

And to my central argument that a system of two dominant political parties leaves us susceptible to the influence of Corporate interests, you have said nothing. Diversifying the representation would seem to counter the problem to some extent, though I also think that corporate interests should not be allowed to make any donations to parties or campaigns. For example, here in Spain, (a system with two dominant parties, and a third minor party, or swing party, with which the other two parties are sometimes obliged to make agreements in order to form government) there is no issue of political donations. Both parties are given a certain amount of coverage, and funding to run advertisements. As I am sure you are aware, in spite of your optimistic view that the people are free to vote for whomever they want, the quantity of money spent on any given campaign has a dramatic effect on the outcome of the election. One can only assume that the politicians see themselves as indebted for their election to those groups which donated the greatest quantities. That, for me, is tantamount to anulling the concept of one person one vote which is so essential to any democratic institution.

As for your arguments in favor of two parties, I find your supports vague.

You want to have some opposition,
of course, so that there are checks and balances, but you don't
want your government to become so slow that nothing gets done.

I don't know what you mean by "some opposition". What is desirable is as much opposition as the demographics of the country require. I have seen no evidence that a smaller number of parties results in greater speed of legislation. (In fact one of the arguments against our system is that it is ineffectual, and results in deadlock.) I would ask you that if you're going to make obscure references to one or two of the myriad political systems in the world, that you say something about their actual situation rather than leaving it veiled in obscurity. What exactly is the situation in Macedonia? What has been agreed too that is detrimental to the population and to the benefit of radical elements? And how exactly does it present an obstacle to my argument?

Another danger is chaos. It is possible to have so many parties
involved that no one really knows what's going on. This again
undermines the process again. You can't check things you can't
see.

Again, don't expect me to balk at the drop of a word like "chaos". In order to support your argument, you would have to show why, in your opinion, a two party system is transparent (I would argue that there are too many things we can't "check" in our current system, but that a multiplying of parties would not make the system less transparent than it already is.)

The one thing that really does put third party candidates
at a disadvantage, besides social response, is the set up
of congress. Third parties have less power in congress
than members of the two major parties because they
don't have the backing of a majority or minority leader.

Thanks for pointing this out. I believe it's an argument for my position that power in our system is too localized, and therefore too susceptible to special interest / corporate influence.
 
It to bad there isnt some way to do away with ALL the partys of political BS and have the folks THAT WE THE PEOPLE voted in do the bidding of the majority of the above. those poor souls[most in office now] getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar or getting hummers on the peoples time:finger: SEE YA!!!! Our government was meant to work FOR THE PEOPLE not against. and FOR THE PEOPLE MEANS FOR THE FOLKS THAT LIVE IN THE GOOD OLE U.S.A. not some camel litter box 10 time zones away. Charity starts at home. just thinking bout our foreign policys of the last 40 years:mad: I am going to go and take my meds now................:D
 

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