Colorado baker told to bake that cake

[LeftofLeft]

So.
Would you force a Muslim baker to make a big penis cake for a Gay wedding?

He probably loses his shit over Target employees’ rights to refuse to scan bacon or a cab driver refusing to handle luggage with liquor.

 

[LeftofLeft]

Absolutely. Public businesses should serve the public. You advocate for Jim Crow.

Conservatives are being kicked out of restaurants which you probably support yet you are concerned about two dudes getting married yet are pussies to go to another bakery.

 

[Esdraelon]

So.
Would you force a Muslim baker to make a big penis cake for a Gay wedding?

Only once...

 

[g5000]

Would you be all that upset if he refused adultry cakes?

Have you ever heard of a so-called bible-compliant baker refusing to bake a cake for someone's second, third, fourth, etc. wedding?

Me, either.

Adultery is cool now.

 

[Grumblenuts]

And again, Phillips, to my knowledge, has never to refused to bake a cake just because the customer is gay, he’s only refused 2 cakes, as far as I’m aware, both dealing with a ceremony.

Indeed, those who don't bother to read tend to remain blissfully ignorant. Nothing terribly wrong with that necessarily.. Only becomes a problem when some idiot goes and argues that a thing never occurred because they never bothered to look for it:

The Civil Rights Division opened an investigation. The investigator found that “on multiple occasions,” Phillips “turned away potential customers on the basis of their sexual orientation, stating that he could not create a cake for a same-sex wedding ceremony or reception” because his religious beliefs prohibited it and because the potential customers “were doing something illegal” at that time. Id., at 76. The investigation found that Phillips had declined to sell custom wedding cakes to about six other same-sex couples on this basis. Id., at 72. The investigator also recounted that, according to affidavits submitted by Craig and Mullins, Phillips’ shop had refused to sell cupcakes to a lesbian couple for their commitment celebration because the shop “had a policy of not selling baked goods to same-sex couples for this type of event.” Id., at 73. Based on these findings, the Division found probable cause that Phillips violated CADA and referred the case to the Civil Rights Commission.

 

[ThisIsMe]

You can commit adultery, marry three, four, five times, and cheat on all your wives, and these fake bible-compliant bakers will happily bake your third, fourth, fifth wedding cake for you.

You know, you make a good point. Just as homosexuality is addressed in the Old Testament, adultery is as well. Now, certain religions have different views on marriage, remarriage, there are some laws that are just not done anymore (like plucking your eye out if it offends you etc…), however, your argument here does put the baker in a bit of a predicament, as it could be seen as certainly a hypocrisy. I still wouldn’t call it discriminatory, because again, different religions have adapted different views on marriage. However, going by a strict reading of the scripture, adultery is also considered wrong.

So, one would need to find out if a person has ever come into his shop and told Phillips he wanted to have a cake made for his 5th wedding (or whatever number), if Phillips has, then one would have a case that he is certainly hypocritical, and maybe even that he was not holding to his religious values.

“I don't discriminate against anybody — I serve everybody that comes in my shop,” Phillips said. “I don't create cakes for every message that people ask me to create.

“This cake is a specific cake, a wedding cake is an inherently religious event and the cake is definitely a specific message,” Phillips said, explaining his objection to making the wedding cake for the same-sex wedding.

But Phillips said there were several other messages he would never agree to put on any of his cakes — including anything that would disparage a member of the LGBTQ community.

Baker who refused to make cake for gay wedding: 'I don't discriminate'

Jack Phillips maintained he would 'serve everybody that comes in my shop,' but that he wouldn't 'create cakes for every message.'

www.nbcnews.com

He even says he wouldn’t make a cake for someone wanting a negative stance on lgbtq, he just doesn’t want to make a cake for every message that comes through the door, and a wedding is an inherent religious event and so he wouldn’t make one for a same sex wedding, which his religion opposes

 

[ThisIsMe]

Indeed, those who don't bother to read tend to remain blissfully ignorant. Nothing terribly wrong with that necessarily.. Only becomes a problem when some idiot goes and argues that a thing never occurred because they never bothered to look for it:

Yeah, read that again, even the document contradicts itself:

turned away potential customers on the basis of their sexual orientation, stating that he could not create a cake for a same-sex wedding ceremony or reception”

The two qualifiers there are not the same thing. It tries to say that he wouldn’t bake a cake based on their sexual orientation, and then says that he even states that he wouldn’t bake a cake for a same sex wedding or ceremony.

In the syllabus you posted it even says:

In 2012 he told a same-sex couple that he would not create a cake for their wed- ding celebration because of his religious opposition to same-sex mar- riages—marriages that Colorado did not then recognize—but that he would sell them other baked goods, e.g., birthday cakes.

So, granted that’s a syllabus and not the actual court opinion, the person writing it even says that Phillips told the gay couple that he would sell them other baker goods, birthday cakes, for example. So, he’s showing here that he’s not refusing to do business with gay people, just that he won’t make cakes for gay weddings.

If you can find examples of Phillips posting anti gay rhetoric on social media, or show examples of him refusing to do business with gay people…just because they are gay, not in connection with any kind of celebration or ceremony, then you would have something to go on, but barring that, it’s just a religious freedom issue.

 

[JoeB131]

If one group gets more protection than a different group then there is not equal protection.

I agree, white, straight people have more protections than other people. We need to fix that.

 

[JoeB131]

Why do you have to point

Shush, the grownups are talking.

I understand the arguments...

But as a former bakery owner I can say that the reputation of his entire business is at stake here. People buy from him because of his relationship with the customers, his style of decorating, and his reputation.

And basically the state is telling him that they want to flush all of those things down the toilet....that his business is actually theirs despite having no personal financing or investment in his shop.

Small business like these pay collectively more in taxes than anyone else....

Okay, it seems to me that his reputation wouldn't suffer because he made the gay cake or the transition cake.

The state is requiring him to comply with certain laws. Laws we all agreed to through the democratic process.

He has to comply with sanitation laws. This is to protect his customers from food poisoning.
He has to comply with public accommodation laws to protect his customers from discrimination.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Even if it's Thanksgiving, a bakery is not required to bake pumpkin pies no matter how foolish or prejudiced that decision might be. And having the state force them to create a menu of the state's choosing is the very definition of conscription.

That would make sense if he never bakes pumpkin pies because he doesn't know how or doesn't have the right equipment.

If he refused to sell pumpkin pies to black people or gay people, then he is in violation of the law.

Who in their right mind wants a custom made cake baked under duress?

Thus man's business was targeted...pure and simple. And independent bakeries are pig headed and stubborn people to start with. (I'm one that is that very much in alignment)
Nobody tells me what I will or won't make in my bakery. I will have the final say in the matter even if I have to do time.

And I'm okay with that. I'm perfectly okay with this guy losing his business for being a bigot.

Let me give you another example. When the four black people sat at the counter at Woolworth's in violation of segregation, they were insisting on food made under duress. Why would anyone in their right minds want that?
Oh, maybe because it's about more than the food.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I agree, white, straight people have more protections than other people. We need to fix that.

Please link to the laws giving them these protections.

Thanks

 

[HeyNorm]

Shush, the grownups are talking.



Okay, it seems to me that his reputation wouldn't suffer because he made the gay cake or the transition cake.

The state is requiring him to comply with certain laws. Laws we all agreed to through the democratic process.

He has to comply with sanitation laws. This is to protect his customers from food poisoning.
He has to comply with public accommodation laws to protect his customers from discrimination.

Sounds reasonable to me.




That would make sense if he never bakes pumpkin pies because he doesn't know how or doesn't have the right equipment.

If he refused to sell pumpkin pies to black people or gay people, then he is in violation of the law.


And I'm okay with that. I'm perfectly okay with this guy losing his business for being a bigot.

Let me give you another example. When the four black people sat at the counter at Woolworth's in violation of segregation, they were insisting on food made under duress. Why would anyone in their right minds want that?
Oh, maybe because it's about more than the food.

Have you yet to find anywhere that he made a cake for a same sex straight couples wedding? And do you still believe all trans are gay?

If you haven’t you have lost the debate.

 

[Papageorgio]

But they don't have to. A private business may choose to serve or not serve whomever they want Commie.

There are public accommodation laws and certain groups are protected. You can’t decided to not serve groups because of race, color, religion, sexual orientation. If those laws exist, then you can’t decide not to serve someone who falls under any of those categories.

 

[JoeB131]

In the list you provide, he could make the cake because they are not asking him to make a cake for a celebration, even if they were, you list things that the catholic religion might consider a sin, but a Protestant religion may not. And again, Phillips, to my knowledge, has never to refused to bake a cake just because the customer is gay, he’s only refused 2 cakes, as far as I’m aware, both dealing with a ceremony.

Actually, all those things are considered sins under the bible. True, most people don't make a big deal about them. When I grew up in the 1970's, it was considered a bit of a scandal when my cousin moved in with her boyfriend without marriage. Today, it's kind of the norm. And no baker would scream, "I'm not serving you because you are living in sin."

God didn't change his mind, we changed ours.

Now, as to your scenario with the Muslim truck drivers, and apparently with Catholics too (again, I’m not a catholic so I had to look it up), but in both cases, we’ll, at least in the Muslim religion, they are forbidden to transport, sell, or cause other people to buy, basically, they are forbidden to have anything to do with intoxicants, likewise, there is something in the catholic religion that says selling condoms would cause others to sin…so, accommodations have to be made. Here the deal though, that’s going to be a tougher sell working at a place like wal mart where it’s expected that the customers may come through your line with items that may be against your religion to sell. What is the store supposed to do? Put up a sign “no condoms this lane” and “no pork products this lane”? No, more than likely if someone has a religious objection to those things, you don’t put them in the checkout line, you put them in another area of the store.

Here's the thing, the store can make reasonable accommodations for that employee. (Although, more than likely, they would just find another excuse to fire that employee, welcome to the world of at-will employment.)

However, in the case of the two truck drivers, the court ruled in FAVOR of protecting their religious liberty…..which is exactly the same thing that’s happening here with the bakery.

Not really. In the case of the two drivers, they ruled the company could have assigned someone else to the beer run.

they did not deny the customer their beer based on a religious objection.

In the case of the baker, he has the right to not be a baker. Once he decided to be a baker, he has to take care of all customers who ask for his product. In short, HE has religious liberty, his business does not.

 

[JoeB131]

Sadly, the Dominican Rent boy didn't get any of those cakes.

Have you yet to find anywhere that he made

Shush, the grownups are talking.

 

[JoeB131]

He probably loses his shit over Target employees’ rights to refuse to scan bacon or a cab driver refusing to handle luggage with liquor.

Quite the contrary, I know that person will probably lose his job eventually because at will employment. They'll just find other things to write him up on and then get rid of him.

Have you ever heard of a so-called bible-compliant baker refusing to bake a cake for someone's second, third, fourth, etc. wedding?

Me, either.

Adultery is cool now.

But it goes beyond that.

75% of couples who get married live together before getting married. Yet you'd never hear of a baker refusing service based on people "living in sin".

 

[HeyNorm]

Sadly, the Dominican Rent boy didn't get any of those cakes.


Shush, the grownups are talking.

Ok Kid. Tired of getting your a$$ kicked? Joey, time to go to school, and if anyone needs it, it is you.

Why do you think only gays have the right to marry, and why do you think all trans are gay?

 

[JohnDB]

Shush, the grownups are talking.



Okay, it seems to me that his reputation wouldn't suffer because he made the gay cake or the transition cake.

The state is requiring him to comply with certain laws. Laws we all agreed to through the democratic process.

He has to comply with sanitation laws. This is to protect his customers from food poisoning.
He has to comply with public accommodation laws to protect his customers from discrimination.

Sounds reasonable to me.




That would make sense if he never bakes pumpkin pies because he doesn't know how or doesn't have the right equipment.

If he refused to sell pumpkin pies to black people or gay people, then he is in violation of the law.


And I'm okay with that. I'm perfectly okay with this guy losing his business for being a bigot.

Let me give you another example. When the four black people sat at the counter at Woolworth's in violation of segregation, they were insisting on food made under duress. Why would anyone in their right minds want that?
Oh, maybe because it's about more than the food.

Oh I get what the transgender people want their status to be....but from the many statistics I've seen, Transgenders are mentally ill....they need help and not the legitimizing of their dysphoria.

And as a "Bigoted Baker" I actually don't believe in "giving a drunk a drink".
YMMV.

So the bakery has to close....it's not really that big of a deal. Especially if he is a true professional. He'll break down the equipment and move it to another location and set up again or sell it for what he has in it....maybe more. Either way he loses maybe $20K in the worst case scenario but likely makes some money due to supply chain issues for the equipment.

Bakeries are more of a service business to the community than a profitable enterprise.

And us Bigoted Bakers don't have to do them. We are just fine without creating a shop and jobs.

 

[mak2]

Here's why I think it is a big deal to provide your services to all who want to spend money in your establishment, if you are open to the public. I live in a small Midwestern town that was/is very racist. To this day this town is far less diverse than one would expect. But back in the day (early to mid 60's) there were two gas stations close or in town, and on the main road to a larger city. Back then an attendant would pump you gas. When I was a kid as a rule the gas stations would not pump gas for black people. Period. They were also refused service in the restaurant etc. The effect of this is black people avoided my little town and effectively segregated it from all minorities for decades. If the conservatives can make it so bakeries don't have to bake cakes for selected people they don't like, others can refuse to provide services to minorities and I have seen the effects of this in my lifetime. My little town had a public swimming pool I guess it was in the late 60's, one day a black family showed up. They got everyone out of the pool and closed it for some length of time, I don't remember how long. For the last several years I had thought this might not be that big of deal anymore, but since I have been on this forum and witnessed the overt racism on this forum I am afraid the racism is just a bit more covert now.

 

[Papageorgio]

Here's why I think it is a big deal to provide your services to all who want to spend money in your establishment, if you are open to the public. I live in a small Midwestern town that was/is very racist. To this day this town is far less diverse than one would expect. But back in the day (early to mid 60's) there were two gas stations close or in town, and on the main road to a larger city. Back then an attendant would pump you gas. When I was a kid as a rule the gas stations would not pump gas for black people. Period. They were also refused service in the restaurant etc. The effect of this is black people avoided my little town and effectively segregated it from all minorities for decades. If the conservatives can make it so bakeries don't have to bake cakes for selected people they don't like, others can refuse to provide services to minorities and I have seen the effects of this in my lifetime. My little town had a public swimming pool I guess it was in the late 60's, one day a black family showed up. They got everyone out of the pool and closed it for some length of time, I don't remember how long. For the last several years I had thought this might not be that big of deal anymore, but since I have been on this forum and witnessed the overt racism on this forum I am afraid the racism is just a bit more covert now.

When was this? What have you done to make the town more diverse?

 

[mak2]

When was this? What have you done to make the town more diverse?

In the 60's. I get the second half of your question, but it won't work. I am not an ignorant redneck racist jerk.