Cluster Munitions

[midcan5]

How did this country sink so low that they would not agree to more humane warfare? We did in the past, what changed?

Cluster Munitions by Senator Gravel

"111 nations signed on to a draft treaty this last month in Dublin, Ireland to outlaw the use of cluster munitions by their military forces. The United States boycotted this conference to produce a humane treaty. Cluster munitions contain dozens to hundreds of bomblets designed to explode above ground, inflicting maiming and lethal wounds. All battlefield weapons are cruel, but clusters rank up there with land mines––not only for their impact in battle, but more importantly because of their extensive residual damage long after the battlefield is quiet and overgrown.

Like land mines, the crippling and lethal legacy of cluster munitions is primarily on civilians––one in four victims are, children. The most recent example of their use was by the U.S. and Britain in the invasion of Iraq and Israel’s invasion of southern Lebanon against Hezbollah. The munitions used by Israel were older models purchased from American stocks that were prone to failure, with greater residual threats to civilian populations.

We should not lose sight of the irony that the U.S. is one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council––the world’s major munitions producers (plus Israel)––the majority of which opposed the Dublin draft treaty."

Cluster Munitions | Senator Mike Gravel

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ya lets just disarm and hope singing a ballad will protect us when our enemies come calling.

 

[Moon]

"Humane warfare"?

 

[DiamondDave]

What do you expect us to use??? Harsh Language?

 

[Charles_Main]

If we stopped using cluster munitions He would just find something else to cry about.

 

[Gunny]

How did this country sink so low that they would not agree to more humane warfare? We did in the past, what changed?

Cluster Munitions by Senator Gravel

"111 nations signed on to a draft treaty this last month in Dublin, Ireland to outlaw the use of cluster munitions by their military forces. The United States boycotted this conference to produce a humane treaty. Cluster munitions contain dozens to hundreds of bomblets designed to explode above ground, inflicting maiming and lethal wounds. All battlefield weapons are cruel, but clusters rank up there with land mines––not only for their impact in battle, but more importantly because of their extensive residual damage long after the battlefield is quiet and overgrown.

Like land mines, the crippling and lethal legacy of cluster munitions is primarily on civilians––one in four victims are, children. The most recent example of their use was by the U.S. and Britain in the invasion of Iraq and Israel’s invasion of southern Lebanon against Hezbollah. The munitions used by Israel were older models purchased from American stocks that were prone to failure, with greater residual threats to civilian populations.

We should not lose sight of the irony that the U.S. is one of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council––the world’s major munitions producers (plus Israel)––the majority of which opposed the Dublin draft treaty."

Cluster Munitions | Senator Mike Gravel

They work like a fucking charm. When you get your ass out there in the line of fire, THEN you can bitch about what's used to take out the enemy. Otherwise, shut your piehole.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Jesus, Midcan, do you not understand that women and children are expendable? It's a war, for chrissakes. Who cares if innocent civilians die? You're lucky we're still not commiting systematic rapes, which you'll wish we had once the 'enemy' comes to your door.

 

[Article 15]

Ya lets just disarm and hope singing a ballad will protect us when our enemies come calling.

That's not even remotely close to what the OP said ...

 

[Article 15]

They work like a fucking charm. When you get your ass out there in the line of fire, THEN you can bitch about what's used to take out the enemy. Otherwise, shut your piehole.

Maybe my sarcasm detector is a bit fuzzy tonight but are you really spitting the line that in order to opine on such matters one has to have served?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Maybe my sarcasm detector is a bit fuzzy tonight but are you really spitting the line that in order to opine on such matters one has to have served?

In this case yes. Those munitions work, that is why they are being attacked, just like Napalm was attacked. Just like land mines are attacked.

 

[editec]

Let's not kid ourselves.

Modern airborn warfare techniques made civilians military targets before most of us were born.

Civilians create the wealth and the military material which support the military.

Hence, mankind now often targets the source of the wealth that supports their enemies....civilians.

As to the specific horrors we rain down upon armies and the civilians who love them, alike?

Well, none of them aren't crimes against humanity.

Antipersonnel cluster bombs are part of that deadly arsenal of man's inhumanity to man.

 

[Gunny]

Maybe my sarcasm detector is a bit fuzzy tonight but are you really spitting the line that in order to opine on such matters one has to have served?

I'm saying I'm sick of some armchair quarterbacks without a clue sitting back here in the AC and comfort of their La-Z-Boy presuming to pass moral judgement on something they obviously have no understanding about, not to mention lacking even a modicum of reality to their lameass arguments.

He may "opine" all he wishes. In in turn will free to "opine" on his cluelessness.

War is ugly. It's brutal. It reduces man to his basest form. Fighting to lose is pointless. Setting an arbitrary moral standard that Christ himself would envy for only our military to adhere to is stupid, and provides the enemy weaknesses to exploit.

The savage, brutal tactics of the enemy are hardly even mentioned while some leftwingnut slams our military in some sorry-ass attempt to slam the administration because partisan politics trump all in tiny little pea-sized minds.

If my choice is assault a defended line with my Marines or call for CAS dropping Napalm or cluster munitions on the enemy and they're pos is close to civilians -- or they are hiding among them, a favorite tactic of Islamic fundamentalists -- tough shit. I'm calling in the air and lighting them up.

 

[editec]

I'm saying I'm sick of some armchair quarterbacks without a clue sitting back here in the AC and comfort of their La-Z-Boy presuming to pass moral judgement on something they obviously have no understanding about, not to mention lacking even a modicum of reality to their lameass arguments.

I feel pretty much the same way when the current administration attempts to forge America's foreign policy, but your point is still valid as it regards this issue.

 

[CSM]

I'm saying I'm sick of some armchair quarterbacks without a clue sitting back here in the AC and comfort of their La-Z-Boy presuming to pass moral judgement on something they obviously have no understanding about, not to mention lacking even a modicum of reality to their lameass arguments.

He may "opine" all he wishes. In in turn will free to "opine" on his cluelessness.

War is ugly. It's brutal. It reduces man to his basest form. Fighting to lose is pointless. Setting an arbitrary moral standard that Christ himself would envy for only our military to adhere to is stupid, and provides the enemy weaknesses to exploit.

The savage, brutal tactics of the enemy are hardly even mentioned while some leftwingnut slams our military in some sorry-ass attempt to slam the administration because partisan politics trump all in tiny little pea-sized minds.

If my choice is assault a defended line with my Marines or call for CAS dropping Napalm or cluster munitions on the enemy and they're pos is close to civilians -- or they are hiding among them, a favorite tactic of Islamic fundamentalists -- tough shit. I'm calling in the air and lighting them up.

Amen.

With some folks, it's alll about the "moral high ground." what they don't realize (or refuse to admit) is that when it gets down to brass tacks, morality doesn't mean squat in a knock down, drag out, snot slinging, rolling in the mud war. War is about chaos, destruction, and killing. It is not pleasant, glorious or any of those other high minded adjectives one may choose to apply. It is downright nasty business and if one wants to survive, one had better be prepared to do many things that would otherwise be considered horrendous in civilized society.

Ironically, the same folks who whine about our soldiers not having enough protection, modern equipment or other material support are the same ones who want our soldiers to adhere to moral standards that are more applicable to the Moromon Tabernacle Choir than they are to soldiers fighting to stay alive. Because of that advocacy, they think banning effective weapons will somehow raise the morality of war to that of a sporting event. I am surprised that we haven't heard someone campaigning for our troops to use muskets instead of modern weapons just to give our adversaries a "fair" chance.

 

[editec]

War is murder.

Imagining that we can make it a gentleman's sport with proper rules of conduct is a conceit.

Would that it were so, but it just ain't like that.

 

[CSM]

War is murder.

Imagining that we can make it a gentleman's sport with proper rules of conduct is a conceit.

Would that it were so, but it just ain't like that.

In essence, I agree. reality has a way of smacking idealism in the butt everytime.

 

[Reality]

I'm saying I'm sick of some armchair quarterbacks without a clue sitting back here in the AC and comfort of their La-Z-Boy presuming to pass moral judgement on something they obviously have no understanding about, not to mention lacking even a modicum of reality to their lameass arguments.

He may "opine" all he wishes. In in turn will free to "opine" on his cluelessness.

War is ugly. It's brutal. It reduces man to his basest form. Fighting to lose is pointless. Setting an arbitrary moral standard that Christ himself would envy for only our military to adhere to is stupid, and provides the enemy weaknesses to exploit.

The savage, brutal tactics of the enemy are hardly even mentioned while some leftwingnut slams our military in some sorry-ass attempt to slam the administration because partisan politics trump all in tiny little pea-sized minds.

If my choice is assault a defended line with my Marines or call for CAS dropping Napalm or cluster munitions on the enemy and they're pos is close to civilians -- or they are hiding among them, a favorite tactic of Islamic fundamentalists -- tough shit. I'm calling in the air and lighting them up.

Hence planes flying into buildings.

 

[editec]

Hence planes flying into buildings.

Oh, ouch!

I if your point was that labeling unconventional warfare like terrorism immoral, while casually telling us that cluster bombing by uniformed soldiers is moral, you scored.

This cynic finds it rather amusing (of the black humor variety, of course) to see the outrage that some who advocate that our every foreign policy effect comes with the threat of WAR (as in: the war on terrorism) as a perfectly reasonable poltical approach, but who then weap tears of flag wrapped frustration when other people apply that same specious and deadly logic to US (as in 9-11) in order to solve their problems with the USA foreign policy.

One can almost taste the hypocracy ...

 

[CSM]

Oh, ouch!

I if your point was that labeling unconventional warfare like terrorism immoral, while casually telling us that cluster bombing by uniformed soldiers is moral, you scored.

This cynic finds it rather amusing (of the black humor variety, of course) to see the outrage that some who advocate that our every foreign policy effect comes with the threat of WAR (as in: the war on terrorism) as a perfectly reasonable poltical approach, but who then weap tears of flag wrapped frustration when other people apply that same specious and deadly logic to US (as in 9-11) in order to solve their problems with the USA foreign policy.

One can almost taste the hypocracy ...

Bullcrap. There is a huge difference between intentionally targeting civilians and targeting enemy military forces. Cluster munitions are not designed for soley targeting civilians and their use is not planned for in such a manner (at least not by our military) ..... flying a plane load of civilians into a building loaded with civilians is not even close to be morally or militarily the same.

There is some specious logic going on all right but it is not being used by the the ones shedding "tears of flag wrapped frustration". It is being used by a few posters in this thread.

 

[editec]

Bullcrap. There is a huge difference between intentionally targeting civilians and targeting enemy military forces.

Tell it to the tens of millions of civilians termed "collatoral damages" that have died at the hands of military men in the last century or so.

Cluster munitions are not designed for soley targeting civilians

Cluster bombs are designed to kill people. the USA HAS used them specifically to kill civilians (during WWII for example, and VietName for example). Killing civilians is a tried and try method of winning wars, sport.

I can't help it if you are unwilling to accept historic truth

and their use is not planned for in such a manner (at least not by our military) ..... flying a plane load of civilians into a building loaded with civilians is not even close to be morally or militarily the same.

Well there is a difference, to be sure...not much but some. Both cases are seeking to break the spirit of the people they target and both are murder of innocents.

There is some specious logic going on all right but it is not being used by the the ones shedding "tears of flag wrapped frustration". It is being used by a few posters in this thread.

Guess we'll just have to disagree about that until you can read some military history.

Targeting civilians is very common. The USA has done it in the past, and god help us, if we find we need to do it again, I'm absolutely certain that we will.

As will every other power that uses their airforce to break the economy and spirit of their enemies.

I am not morally outraged by that, nor am I advocating that we eshew the use of clusterbombs.

I am simply unwilling to buy into the bullshit you seem to think is true about how American conducts itself in war.