Blowing Up Darwin

How does an ant change into a spider?
You're literally WAY too stupid to debate.
(loved your Spectacular Idiocy... 'boats (not AGW etc) are what's raising sea level'... unintentional joke OP.

You have an IQ in the Low 80s or less and can't debate anything with anyone.
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Nucleotides form spontaneously in seawater spray with a magnesium ion catalyst. Phosphorylation uses boron as a catalyst.

The 70s ribosome in bacteria has two subunits, one of which is about 1500 nucleotides long and the other is 120 nucleotides long.

To get from individual nucleotides to polymers requires lead ion and cold temperatures, and there are other ways of getting there (like imidazolides). You get about 10% 3'-5' linkages and about 90% 2'-5' linkages. The experiments with imidazolides commonly yield chain lengths of 40 bases within 24 hours.

To get from there to self replicating RNA without enzymes, is actually very easy. Poly-C can direct the replication of long oligo-nucleotides at room temperature. Less than 1% of the product contains non complimentary nucleotides.

These simple reactions lead to the "RNA world" hypothesis, which unfortunately is long since gone and doesn't leave any evidence. What is next is an RNA polymerase enzyme, which makes replication efficient. So now, we have to do a little math. For instance - how long does it take to get a 1500 nucleotide polymer with the correct sequence for a ribosome? If you model oligomerization as a Poisson process the answer is about 400 years. That's in seawater without any protection. But during that 400 years you also get every other sequence of length 1500, so you get your 120-long 5s subunit for free. So this is for the nucleotide portion of a ribosome, and then you also have to account for the 20 or so short proteins that are associated with a ribosome. The good news is that polypeptides are easier and quicker than polynucleotides. The sequence lengths in question are between 100 and 500 amino acids, so it is likely that the polynucleotide is the rate limiting factor.

So we could be generous and say that within 1000 years you'd have enough polymer nucleotides and proteins floating around for self replication, but then the next step is to get them inside a big enough micelle where they're protected and actual cellular replication can begin. This is a non trivial step because you need all the right polynucleotides and all the right proteins in the same place at the same time. But once it happens, you have a cell.

No one really knows how long this step takes because in simple seawater the micelles start eating each other, and there are degredatory processes in addition to constructive ones. The best guess so far is in the neighborhood of around 10,000 years to get a minimal cell. Of course you could speed it up in the laboratory, but under natural conditions the math is very complex and the most we can definitively say is "it takes a while".

But 10,000 years is a reasonable estimate considering we have full-on bacteria within about 500,000 years (complete with a cell wall and structured replication).

This mechanism is entirely plausible but no one's going to wait around 10,000 years to test it. What they do instead is model it on a computer. The best known software platform is called Avida, it runs on a supercomputer or in the cloud. Here is one of the early summaries of Avida from a few years ago:


These studies are ongoing, and NASA does this for other planets too, not just earth. The interesting thing about Avida is it doesn't actually synthesize any chemicals, instead it synthesizes software - self replicating and evolving software. It is a computational biology model of the real thing.


So then, any such effort has to deal with errors in replication, which is a form of variability. Even without actual mutation, you still get errors. A lot of attention has been paid to this issue.

Plus, then, there follows immediately the issue of shape. Protein folding is pretty easy compared to nucleotide looping. To get loops, you have to have complementary sequences of the right length. There are still all kinds of proposals about how this might happen, but that it does is undeniable. All your transfer RNA for example, has loops in the right places.

Anyway, that's about the frontier of evolution so far, we're limited by complexity and computation speed.
 
“Intelligent design” is code. It’s code for religious claims that are completely absent support. I D is entirely dependent on appeals to magic and supernaturalism.

The citation did, in fact, support that scientists were able to synthesize a simple cell.
It’s code only in your mind. Your citation fails at synthesizing a living cell from elements only as I already said.
 
It’s code only in your mind. Your citation fails at synthesizing a living cell from elements only as I already said.
It’s code at your ID’iot creationer madrassah.

As you’re not paying attention, from the link,

“Scientists create the simplest cell with only bare essentials for life and reproduction”
 
These loons think that just mentioning intelligent design is some kind of code
It is. It's just Cloaked Creationism dictated by legal rulings.


Intelligent design (ID) is a Pseudoscientific argument for the existence of God, presented by its proponents as "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins".[1][2][3][4][5] Proponents claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[6] ID is a form of creationism that lacks empirical support and offers no testable or tenable hypotheses, and is therefore not science.[7][8][9] The leading proponents of ID are associated with the Discovery Institute, a Christian, politically conservative think tank based in the United States.[n 1]

Although the phrase intelligent design had featured previously in theological discussions of the argument from design,[10] its first publication in its present use as an alternative term for creationism was in Of Pandas and People,[11][12] a 1989 creationist textbook intended for high school biology classes. The term was substituted into drafts of the book, directly replacing references to creation science and creationism, after the 1987 Supreme Court's Edwards v. Aguillard decision barred the teaching of creation science in public schools on constitutional grounds.[13] From the mid-1990s, the intelligent design movement (IDM), supported by the Discovery Institute,[14] advocated inclusion of intelligent design in public school biology curricula.[7] This led to the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, which found that intelligent design was Not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents," and that the public school district's promotion of it therefore violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. [15]

ID presents two main arguments against evolutionary explanations: irreducible complexity and specified complexity, asserting that certain biological and informational features of living things are too complex to be the result of natural selection. Detailed scientific examination has rebutted several examples for which evolutionary explanations are claimed to be impossible.
[....]

Intelligent design - Wikipedia


`
 
Nucleotides form spontaneously in seawater spray with a magnesium ion catalyst. Phosphorylation uses boron as a catalyst.

The 70s ribosome in bacteria has two subunits, one of which is about 1500 nucleotides long and the other is 120 nucleotides long.

To get from individual nucleotides to polymers requires lead ion and cold temperatures, and there are other ways of getting there (like imidazolides). You get about 10% 3'-5' linkages and about 90% 2'-5' linkages. The experiments with imidazolides commonly yield chain lengths of 40 bases within 24 hours.

To get from there to self replicating RNA without enzymes, is actually very easy. Poly-C can direct the replication of long oligo-nucleotides at room temperature. Less than 1% of the product contains non complimentary nucleotides.

These simple reactions lead to the "RNA world" hypothesis, which unfortunately is long since gone and doesn't leave any evidence. What
It’s code at your ID’iot creationer madrassah.

As you’re not paying attention, from the link,

“Scientists create the simplest cell with only bare essentials for life and reproduction”
Your insults aside, your link does not show a living cell created from elements so why even post it? What’s your point?
 
Your insults aside, your link does not show a living cell created from elements so why even post it? What’s your point?
Just another gap, that's all.

More missing fossils.

lol :p
 
If you want to argue intelligence you have to do it from universal symmetries.

Everything else is explainable with the laws of probability.

The idea behind Avida is it uses the same laws of symmetry and probability without using actual chemicals. It's a kinetic model using just the numbers. In theory it's just as good as real chemistry.

The lesson is that you are limited by complexity before you can get to an actual cell. The number of chemical combinations in a 10,000 year period is so huge that you can't model it.
 
How soon after the supernatural design of the larynx did the gods design the cancer cell?

A masterstroke of design by the gods.
God didn't design the larynx to resist cancer caused by human stupidity.

The following factors can cause cancer of the larynx12345:
  • Smoking tobacco or marijuana, or exposure to secondhand smoke
  • Drinking more than one alcoholic beverage a day
  • Heavy alcohol use
  • Poor nutrition
  • Human papillomavirus (HPV) exposure
God created water, where people often drown. Is that God's fault? Should we drain all the lakes where people swim? What do we do about the oceans?
 
If you want to argue intelligence you have to do it from universal symmetries.

Everything else is explainable with the laws of probability.

The idea behind Avida is it uses the same laws of symmetry and probability without using actual chemicals. It's a kinetic model using just the numbers. In theory it's just as good as real chemistry.

The lesson is that you are limited by complexity before you can get to an actual cell. The number of chemical combinations in a 10,000 year period is so huge that you can't model it.
So, you can’t make and tou can’t model it.
If you want to argue intelligence you have to do it from universal symmetries.

Everything else is explainable with the laws of probability.

The idea behind Avida is it uses the same laws of symmetry and probability without using actual chemicals. It's a kinetic model using just the numbers. In theory it's just as good as real chemistry.

The lesson is that you are limited by complexity before you can get to an actual cell. The number of chemical combinations in a 10,000 year period is so huge that you can't model it.
If you can’t make it and you can’t model it, maybe it requires a higher intellect?
 
God didn't design the larynx to resist cancer caused by human stupidity.

The following factors can cause cancer of the larynx12345:
  • Smoking tobacco or marijuana, or exposure to secondhand smoke
  • Drinking more than one alcoholic beverage a day
  • Heavy alcohol use
  • Poor nutrition
  • Human papillomavirus (HPV) exposure
God created water, where people often drown. Is that God's fault? Should we drain all the lakes where people swim? What do we do about the oceans?
Yeah, they don’t think too deeply.
 
So, you can’t make and tou can’t model it.

If you can’t make it and you can’t model it, maybe it requires a higher intellect?
No, just a bigger computer.

There is no quantum Avida yet, NASA ran out of money. :p
 
How does an ant change into a spider?
Isn't it interesting that the government school grads eschew religion, but have a religous belief in Darwin's unproven theory?

Notice how they practically call any criticism of the theory blasphemy?



For the Democrats, Liberals, Communists, Nazis, Fascists.....Militant Secularism. Lacking self-awareness, the Democrats, Liberals, Progressives ridicule religion as superstition......but kneel to their false religion, Militant Secularism.
From the Amazon review of Godless, by Coulter…


Though liberalism rejects the idea of God and reviles people of faith, it bears all the attributes of a religion. In Godless, Coulter throws open the doors of the Church of Liberalism, showing us its sacraments (abortion), its holy writ (Roe v. Wade), its martyrs (from Soviet spy Alger Hiss to cop-killer Mumia Abu-Jamal), its clergy (public school teachers), its churches (government schools, where prayer is prohibited but condoms are free), its doctrine of infallibility (as manifest in the "absolute moral authority" of spokesmen from Cindy Sheehan to Max Cleland), and its cosmology (in which mankind is an inconsequential accident).

Then, of course, there's the liberal creation myth: Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.



Here we can watch their religious service:

1733093073299.png
 
Nucleotides form spontaneously in seawater spray with a magnesium ion catalyst. Phosphorylation uses boron as a catalyst.

The 70s ribosome in bacteria has two subunits, one of which is about 1500 nucleotides long and the other is 120 nucleotides long.

To get from individual nucleotides to polymers requires lead ion and cold temperatures, and there are other ways of getting there (like imidazolides). You get about 10% 3'-5' linkages and about 90% 2'-5' linkages. The experiments with imidazolides commonly yield chain lengths of 40 bases within 24 hours.

To get from there to self replicating RNA without enzymes, is actually very easy. Poly-C can direct the replication of long oligo-nucleotides at room temperature. Less than 1% of the product contains non complimentary nucleotides.

These simple reactions lead to the "RNA world" hypothesis, which unfortunately is long since gone and doesn't leave any evidence. What is next is an RNA polymerase enzyme, which makes replication efficient. So now, we have to do a little math. For instance - how long does it take to get a 1500 nucleotide polymer with the correct sequence for a ribosome? If you model oligomerization as a Poisson process the answer is about 400 years. That's in seawater without any protection. But during that 400 years you also get every other sequence of length 1500, so you get your 120-long 5s subunit for free. So this is for the nucleotide portion of a ribosome, and then you also have to account for the 20 or so short proteins that are associated with a ribosome. The good news is that polypeptides are easier and quicker than polynucleotides. The sequence lengths in question are between 100 and 500 amino acids, so it is likely that the polynucleotide is the rate limiting factor.

So we could be generous and say that within 1000 years you'd have enough polymer nucleotides and proteins floating around for self replication, but then the next step is to get them inside a big enough micelle where they're protected and actual cellular replication can begin. This is a non trivial step because you need all the right polynucleotides and all the right proteins in the same place at the same time. But once it happens, you have a cell.

No one really knows how long this step takes because in simple seawater the micelles start eating each other, and there are degredatory processes in addition to constructive ones. The best guess so far is in the neighborhood of around 10,000 years to get a minimal cell. Of course you could speed it up in the laboratory, but under natural conditions the math is very complex and the most we can definitively say is "it takes a while".

But 10,000 years is a reasonable estimate considering we have full-on bacteria within about 500,000 years (complete with a cell wall and structured replication).

This mechanism is entirely plausible but no one's going to wait around 10,000 years to test it. What they do instead is model it on a computer. The best known software platform is called Avida, it runs on a supercomputer or in the cloud. Here is one of the early summaries of Avida from a few years ago:


These studies are ongoing, and NASA does this for other planets too, not just earth. The interesting thing about Avida is it doesn't actually synthesize any chemicals, instead it synthesizes software - self replicating and evolving software. It is a computational biology model of the real thing.


So then, any such effort has to deal with errors in replication, which is a form of variability. Even without actual mutation, you still get errors. A lot of attention has been paid to this issue.

Plus, then, there follows immediately the issue of shape. Protein folding is pretty easy compared to nucleotide looping. To get loops, you have to have complementary sequences of the right length. There are still all kinds of proposals about how this might happen, but that it does is undeniable. All your transfer RNA for example, has loops in the right places.

Anyway, that's about the frontier of evolution so far, we're limited by complexity and computation speed.
"All living organisms have certain characteristics that distinguish them from non-living forms. The basic processes of life include organization, metabolism, responsiveness, movements, and reproduction. In humans, who represent the most complex form of life, there are additional requirements such as growth, differentiation, respiration, digestion, and excretion. All of these processes are interrelated. No part of the body, from the smallest cell to a complete body system, works in isolation. All function together, in fine-tuned balance, for the well being of the individual and to maintain life. "


Do any of the chemicals that you mentioned perform these functions?

No?
Then they aren't living, are they?

Then why are you spamming the thread with them?

  • Tucker Carlson, on Joe Rogan: “Evolution as articulated by Darwin is kinda not true. There is no evidence for it….if all life originated from a single organism, there would be a fossil record of that….and there is not.”
    • Meyer: “Here in London, 2016, there was a conference held by the most august scientific society, the Royal Society, a group of evolutionary biologists, are dissatisfied with Darwin’s method of evolutionary change, natural selection and random mutation …lacks the creative power to generate major changes in life.”
 
Science is a result of faith, faith that nature can be comprehended and predicted.
One hundred percent false of course. Fai.th is belief without evidence. Literally every shred of evidence ever collected shows that the universe is deterministic.



You're saying things you wish were true. So that you can wedge your magical nonsense on the same shelf as rigorous science.

It will never, ever work for you, so you can give up right now.
 
Depends on the computer.

If it's Windows, definitely not. :p
More like your quantum computer, but then you gotta ask where did that quantum computer come from? ;)
 

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