Christians vs. Non-Christians

[KMAN]

What would be better for the US? A country full of Christians or a country full of Non-Christians?

 

[Diuretic]

I don't care, just give me the contract to round up the losers and ship them out before bloody Halliburton gets one of those no-bid contracts and gazumps me.

 

[AllieBaba]

A country where both are allowed to practice their religion or non-religion, without fear of reprisal from the other group.

 

[bobbymcgill]

What would be better for the US? A country full of Christians or a country full of Non-Christians?

Well, statistics do show that atheist commit less crime per capita than those that call themselves "christian."

 

[Gungnir]

Well, statistics do show that atheist commit less crime per capita than those that call themselves "christian."

Of course when Atheist do commit crimes they normally kill quite a few people.

 

[midcan5]

A country where both are allowed to practice their religion or non-religion, without fear of reprisal from the other group.

Is that a question? If so it would be Sweden, Denmark maybe, as the most tolerant Christian/secular nations. I don't know how Buddhists or Hindus handle religion, although Hindus tend toward caste classifications. I would rate America similar to Iran in that being a free thinker in either society places you outside the mainstream power system.

Darn, I'm answering a comment. Religion will always create problems, as it has the answers, and when you have the answers why question. But secular has its problems too as while most of us consider ourselves rational and reasonable many aren't. So secular would be like the free market zealots - full of crazies - in the end tolerance and a clear recognition of pluralism are best traits.

 

[Gungnir]

Iran, is that like near Persia or something?

 

[strollingbones]

Of course when Atheist do commit crimes they normally kill quite a few people.

actually most murders are committed by people who claim to be chrisitians in the us. remember many are ones that were told by god to kill.....

 

[editec]

Well, statistics do show that atheist commit less crime per capita than those that call themselves "christian."

That's fascinating.

I'm fairly familiar with the DOJ statistical database, and don't recall any stats on religions of those convincted of crimes.

Can you point me to that statistic, please?

 

[mightypeon]

I dont have a link, but such statistics have, in cases of Atheists, some significant confounders:
1: Atheists tend to have a decent degree of education, otherwise one is not really going to make up his mind.
2: With Education usually comes money (or vice versa)

In the end we have rich and relativly smart people. This means: More to loose (beeing rich) more difficult to convict (No legal system I know treats the Rich and Poor equally) more difficult to catch in the first place (beeing smart increases you chances of getting away).

My gripe is not with religion, but with any ideology that says "we are the only ones who KNOW" everyone else is a "Heathen", "Heretic", "Untermensch", "Imperialist Swine" and will "Burn in Hell", "Be eradicated", "Be defeated by the arms of the working class".

 

[Mr. President]

Wouldn't that depend on a definitive definition of "Christian". If we are talking about people who hold the ten commandments in high regard and as the bible says obey the laws of the land then statiscally would that classification of Christians have the lower crime rate? So we can't fault Christianity for its "extremist" the same way we don't fault the muslim/islamic community for its "extremist".

 

[AllieBaba]

actually most murders are committed by people who claim to be chrisitians in the us. remember many are ones that were told by god to kill.....

What a load of crap. And some are told by their dogs to kill.

I get so sick of the bigotry in here, in the guise of liberalism. Shut down industry, shut down freedom of religion, brand those who believe as "evil" "stuipd" "corrupt" and what do you have?

Why you have Russia under Stalin. How many of his own people did he kill in the name of "the working man"? He was also successful at villifying those who clung to their religion and their guns:


Stalin - MSN Encarta
"Stalin’s historical legacy is overwhelmingly negative. Although his policies transformed the USSR from an agrarian-based society into an industrialized nation with a powerful military arsenal, the transformation was accomplished at the cost of millions of lives. Stalin’s militant distrust of the West and his assertion of Soviet dominance in Eastern Europe gave rise to the Cold War. His purges of society through violent police terror left a permanent scar on the collective memory of the people under his rule. Although admired by some Russians, most would agree with the assessment in the West that Stalin was one of the cruelest dictators in history.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
."

 

[AllieBaba]

Or Germany under Hitler. Shall we discuss how he described Jews, Poles, Gypsies?

Pretty much the way the assholes in here who mindlessly hate all Christians, and who believe any pap they're fed about them.

 

[editec]

I dont have a link, but such statistics have, in cases of Atheists, some significant confounders:
1: Atheists tend to have a decent degree of education, otherwise one is not really going to make up his mind.
2: With Education usually comes money (or vice versa)

Well I understand your logic, of course. But I believe that your presuppositions from whence that logica flows are as sketchy as your conclusion.

Do atheists really have a significantly higher educational level than believers?

I don't know for sure...do you?

I think you are assuming they do, but without any supporting evidence for that assumption.

My gripe is not with religion, but with any ideology that says "we are the only ones who KNOW" everyone else is a "Heathen", "Heretic", "Untermensch", "Imperialist Swine" and will "Burn in Hell", "Be eradicated", "Be defeated by the arms of the working class".

It is, huh? Mine, too.

Yet you assume, with no support other than your imagination, that you know a lot about the educational levels of two very diverse groups.

You assume, again, with no supporting evidence, that believers are more criminal than non-believers.

And yet you do not see how your ideology is so similar to those other arrogant ideologies you eschew?

Forest meet trees.

 

[AllieBaba]

Atheists have a higher degree of education...let's see a link that proves that.

I've run across very few educated atheists in my lifetime, but innumerable ignorant idiots who are so incredibly uneducated it's almost impossible to communicate. But the one thing they do know is there ain't no god, nohow.

Let's see some numbers about the education level of atheists. I'm dying of curiousity.

 

[jillian]

A study has shown atheism to be particularly prevalent among scientists, a tendency already quite marked at the beginning of the 20th century, developing into a dominant one during the course of the century. In 1914, James H. Leuba found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected U.S. natural scientists expressed "disbelief or doubt in the existence of God" (defined as a personal God which interacts directly with human beings). The same study, repeated in 1996, gave a similar percentage of 60.7%; this number is 93% among the members of the National Academy of Sciences. Expressions of positive disbelief rose from 52% to 72%.[9] (See also Relationship between religion and science.)

Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AllieBaba]

However, that doesn't prove that most atheists are better educated than Christians. If you look at theologists, I'll bet most of them are Christian.

Nice try, though.

 

[mightypeon]

Note, beeing an Atheist (actually, more an agnostican, I cannot exclude the existence of a higher god-like beeing on a scientific basis) myself I may be biased on the matter.

Links by popular demand:

ScienceDirect - Intelligence : Average intelligence predicts atheism rates across 137 nations

Unfortunatly Science direct only, that study was obviously quite controversial
as evidenced here:

Intelligent people 'less likely to believe in God' - Telegraph

and here

Newsvine - Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers


A not controversial study looked at the number of leading scientists believing in god:

Nature, "Leading scientists still reject God"  July 23, 1998
(published in nature but freely accessable at the above link)


While people without religious beliefs make up between 3-16% of the US population,
(The Graduate Center, CUNY)
The Graduate Center, CUNY)
they make up less than 1% of the prison population,
The results of the Christians vs atheists in prison investigation. (link seems a bit dubious)

however, it may be that
-"They found god" in prison (religion does correlate with poor living conditions, conversion is very active in prisons)
-Atheists may be overrepresented in the proportion of those who did not awnser questions about their religiousity.

One a more loosely related issue:

Journal of Religion and Society

states that religiuos belief and things like homicide, STDs and teenage pregnancy are correlated with religiousity in developed countries like the USA, Japan and western Europe.


My personal opinion:
In general, I think that the distinction of "Atheist" vs. "Believer" are likely a bit to broad.
If someone is raised as an Atheist and stays one, I would not expect him to be different from someone who was raised as a christian and stays one.
However, the act of converting (based on free will) will likely require that the person asks (fairly philosphical) questions to himself. Asking yourself philosophical questions should mean that your IQ is at least normal. While staying what you are does not demand any intellectual skills, so your IQ may be anything.

To sum it up, it is, in my opinion, likely that the population of people who have undergone a "conversion" not triggered by missionars are likely not dumb (from what to what they convert may not matter much), increasing their average IQ over the one of the total population(which can be smart, normal or dumb) . If one assumes that Atheists largely converted to Atheism, as opposed to beeing "baptized" or "missionarized", one may find the conclusion that the population of those who "convert to atheism" may have a higher average IQ than the population of those who "were born and died as christians" or those who "were born and died as atheists".

Was this a bit clearer?

Cheers,

Mightypeon

 

[mightypeon]

Apart from that, Hitler was NOT an Atheist, you may argue about Stalin (I know less here), but Hitler was definitly not. I am not implying that he was a devout Christian.
One can make a more convincing case for Lincoln or even Jefferson beeing one.

Random Hitler quotes about the matter:

Mein Kampf:
"faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude,"
"Modern systems of belief have not proved so successful from the standpoint of results that they could be regarded as a useful replacement for previous religious creeds."

Reichstag speak in 38 (also in Mein Kampf)
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

Personal correspondence
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

 

[mightypeon]

Or Germany under Hitler. Shall we discuss how he described Jews, Poles, Gypsies?

Pretty much the way the assholes in here who mindlessly hate all Christians, and who believe any pap they're fed about them.

Let me give you some examples here:

"The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves,"
"We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them."
"Ungodly wretches"

Thats not Mein Kampf,
That is Table Talk (Tischgespräche) by Martin Luther.