Christian questions

[Gurdari]

Not sure how to word this, but I mean it to be discussed, not as a particular insult:

According to the Bible... does God have a case of self-loathing? Did he create Jesus to protect or 'save' people from himself? I hear about the damnation that awaits those who do not accept Jesus, but isn't that damnation directed FROM God? It seems like a bizarre dual-nature of a deity to at once condemn and pardon those he created...

 

[Taomon]

Not sure how to word this, but I mean it to be discussed, not as a particular insult:

According to the Bible... does God have a case of self-loathing? Did he create Jesus to protect or 'save' people from himself? I hear about the damnation that awaits those who do not accept Jesus, but isn't that damnation directed FROM God? It seems like a bizarre dual-nature of a deity to at once condemn and pardon those he created...

If one accepts the notion that in order to be saved and go to heaven, one must accept Jesus into one's heart. But what about Moses, Noah, Adam and all of the other good people who existed before Jesus? Were they not allowed entrance into heaven?

Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine both pointed out that Biblical myth correlated to Roman Paganistic myth both of which originated in Rome (Council of Nacia).

Jesus words were altered by the preachings of Paul. That movement was altered by later editors of the Bible in Rome. Rome engineered empires and were the perfect architects to create a religion that has violence, oppression and bigotry as an underlying theme.

The Bible is fraudulent. The divinity of Christ is a lie. The Trinity is a lie. The Eurochrist is a lie. The Virgin Birth is a lie. The Resurrection is a lie.

 

[Gurdari]

Whether I agree with that or not, the question is more 'Does the Bible or Christianity promote the idea of God disagreeing with himself' or is Jesus ostensibly there to protect God's creations from God himself?


(I am not affirming the existence of non-existence of anything - just trying to clarify some things as Christians put them)

 

[Taomon]

Whether I agree with that or not, the question is more 'Does the Bible or Christianity promote the idea of God disagreeing with himself' or is Jesus ostensibly there to protect God's creations from God himself?


(I am not affirming the existence of non-existence of anything - just trying to clarify some things as Christians put them)

The answer is the Bible contends that God is fallible and that Jesus was created to save us from a God that has shown human emotions (according to the stories within).

And my contention is that God is real, Jesus was a great man - buit no God and the Bible is flawed (to put it nicely).

 

[midcan5]

Complex question. While I may not be the person today to answer that, I was raised Catholic and Catholics have this odd idea that you can educate the person and they will still follow tradition. So whenever this question came up, comes up, the theological reply is you cannot know because God is really unknowable.

A story we were told as children was of a child sitting by the sea with a bucket dumping the sea into a hole, the skeptic (some saint I believe) walking by, asked the child, what they were doing, and when the child tells him they are emptying the sea into the hole, the skeptic says you can't do that, to which the child replies neither can you understand the mystery of God. (Anyone know the source of this?)

The Jesuits were/are famous for intellectual explanations of religious mysteries - this covers everything

http://catholic-resources.org/Both-And.htm

 

[Shogun]

If one accepts the notion that in order to be saved and go to heaven, one must accept Jesus into one's heart. But what about Moses, Noah, Adam and all of the other good people who existed before Jesus? Were they not allowed entrance into heaven?

the OT is god's covenent (contract) with the jews whereas the NT is god's covenant (contract) with gentiles. Moses, Noah, Adam and all the other good people would not have been required to observe the NT since, chances are, they would have rejected jebus as the messiah. In other words, you are looking at their dogma through the filter of christianity rather than as it's own separate dogma that predates the traditions of jebus.

 

[NuclearWinter]

Cameltoe is my favorite

Sho. Come on dawg it's not that kind of forum.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Maybe too many mortals create an image of god that is limited by their own limitations.

If I am a hateful person, my god is hateful. If I am a loving person, my god is loving.


If God has a sense of humor, he/she must be laughinfg her/his ass off over the stupidity of so many believing they have the one true religion.

 

[Shogun]

Sho. Come on dawg it's not that kind of forum.

Was that piece of fine art wit taken from prisonplanet.com? You might wanna email David Icke and let him know that you are hot on persuit of what you suspect is an alien overlord spreading propaganda on USMB.

 

[Eightball]

If one accepts the notion that in order to be saved and go to heaven, one must accept Jesus into one's heart. But what about Moses, Noah, Adam and all of the other good people who existed before Jesus? Were they not allowed entrance into heaven?

Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine both pointed out that Biblical myth correlated to Roman Paganistic myth both of which originated in Rome (Council of Nacia).

Jesus words were altered by the preachings of Paul. That movement was altered by later editors of the Bible in Rome. Rome engineered empires and were the perfect architects to create a religion that has violence, oppression and bigotry as an underlying theme.

The Bible is fraudulent. The divinity of Christ is a lie. The Trinity is a lie. The Eurochrist is a lie. The Virgin Birth is a lie. The Resurrection is a lie.

You took some big steps of liberality, without one textual reason behind them.

First of all Thomas Paine and Mr, Jefferson have great credentials as politicians, but now you've given them creedence as theologians. Please support that premise.

I can certainly quote some obvious bias concerning Thomas Jefferson. He created his own bible from the King James translation, and it was called the Jeffersonian bible. Mr. Jefferson, did a very slick "cut and paste" job on all the verses in the N.T. that inflicted any guilt upon his human soul in the area of sin, need for salvation or reconciliation with his Maker.

I can't speak for Mr. Paine, but if he is of similar vain as Mr. Jefferson, then thats the way he is.

Both men can thank God for their liberty or freedom to mock, question, reject, or accept God of the bible.
*******
Now lets talk about Paul.....whom you say, changed Jesus's words. Please give some very explicit, clear examples of how Paul changed Jesus's teachings?

Just want to let you know that Paul was fully accepted by the remaining 11 disciples/apostles when he/Paul presented himself and his doctrinal knowledge of understanding of the Christian faith to this group of men in Jerusalem, whom Jesus had earlier chosen to lead and establish His church.

It's interesting that you who must be a gifted and noted theologian have found Pauline doctrine to be different from the teachings of Christ. Your observations go flatly against or disagree with all the notable biblical scholars past and present.

Again, Paul and his teachings were totally embraced/welcomed by the other apostles of Christ. Paul's main thrust of ministry was to the gentiles, and that, at first was difficult for the "11" to swallow, yet it was Peter who was initially called by God to bring or observe God's work of salvation in the house of Cornelias.

So Peter himself knew that this gospel/good news of Christ was not exclusively for the Jew, but for the gentile as well.

In fact it was propheside hundreds of years before the advent of Christ's birth/incarnation.
********
Whats truly sad, is that the very ability to refute Christianity and or it tenents, is a gift of one's Creator, yet is blindly, or willfully ignored by those same people.
*******
Not unlike the freedom of speech given to us via the U.S. Constitution, yet that freedom is often used to deride the very source of the freedom to do it?
*******
People have the God given right to not believe, to curse, to mock, to be indifferent, etc.. when it comes to any relational aspect with a Higher Power/God. In their willful rebellion, and biblical ignorance, they toss out proclamations of theological insignifigance, as though it were carved in granite, and sourced from the depths of a scholar.

Yet, He is mocked, not thanked, is disbelieved, not sought, is twisted or maligned, not observed as He is.......on and on and on. Human free will. A most special gift, but also a ticking time bomb when it comes to prospects of future, eternal destination.

 

[Taomon]

If one accepts the notion that in order to be saved and go to heaven, one must accept Jesus into one's heart. But what about Moses, Noah, Adam and all of the other good people who existed before Jesus? Were they not allowed entrance into heaven?

the OT is god's covenent (contract) with the jews whereas the NT is god's covenant (contract) with gentiles. Moses, Noah, Adam and all the other good people would not have been required to observe the NT since, chances are, they would have rejected jebus as the messiah. In other words, you are looking at their dogma through the filter of christianity rather than as it's own separate dogma that predates the traditions of jebus.

Nice deflection, but the Bible is flawed. It was manufactured for oppression by the greatest oppressors in history...the Romans. The Old Testament was included to keep archaic rules in place and burden, otherwise free thinkers.

If the Old Testament is Jewish Dogma, and the New Testament is Gentile dogma, why put them together?

 

[Taomon]

You took some big steps of liberality, without one textual reason behind them.

First of all Thomas Paine and Mr, Jefferson have great credentials as politicians, but now you've given them creedence as theologians. Please support that premise.

I can certainly quote some obvious bias concerning Thomas Jefferson. He created his own bible from the King James translation, and it was called the Jeffersonian bible. Mr. Jefferson, did a very slick "cut and paste" job on all the verses in the N.T. that inflicted any guilt upon his human soul in the area of sin, need for salvation or reconciliation with his Maker.

I can't speak for Mr. Paine, but if he is of similar vain as Mr. Jefferson, then thats the way he is.

Both men can thank God for their liberty or freedom to mock, question, reject, or accept God of the bible.
*******
Now lets talk about Paul.....whom you say, changed Jesus's words. Please give some very explicit, clear examples of how Paul changed Jesus's teachings?

Just want to let you know that Paul was fully accepted by the remaining 11 disciples/apostles when he/Paul presented himself and his doctrinal knowledge of understanding of the Christian faith to this group of men in Jerusalem, whom Jesus had earlier chosen to lead and establish His church.

It's interesting that you who must be a gifted and noted theologian have found Pauline doctrine to be different from the teachings of Christ. Your observations go flatly against or disagree with all the notable biblical scholars past and present.

Again, Paul and his teachings were totally embraced/welcomed by the other apostles of Christ. Paul's main thrust of ministry was to the gentiles, and that, at first was difficult for the "11" to swallow, yet it was Peter who was initially called by God to bring or observe God's work of salvation in the house of Cornelias.

So Peter himself knew that this gospel/good news of Christ was not exclusively for the Jew, but for the gentile as well.

In fact it was propheside hundreds of years before the advent of Christ's birth/incarnation.
********
Whats truly sad, is that the very ability to refute Christianity and or it tenents, is a gift of one's Creator, yet is blindly, or willfully ignored by those same people.
*******
Not unlike the freedom of speech given to us via the U.S. Constitution, yet that freedom is often used to deride the very source of the freedom to do it?
*******
People have the God given right to not believe, to curse, to mock, to be indifferent, etc.. when it comes to any relational aspect with a Higher Power/God. In their willful rebellion, and biblical ignorance, they toss out proclamations of theological insignifigance, as though it were carved in granite, and sourced from the depths of a scholar.

Yet, He is mocked, not thanked, is disbelieved, not sought, is twisted or maligned, not observed as He is.......on and on and on. Human free will. A most special gift, but also a ticking time bomb when it comes to prospects of future, eternal destination.

Our founding fathers were free masons and Unitarians. Jefferson and Paine were theologists as much as any thinking man at that time. The fact that their beliefs were in direct contention with contemporary churches of their day and Evangelicals of this era.

Christianity is a weak belief system. You can sin all you want and ask for forgiveness. There are no consequences, unless you do not accept Jesus as a God.

Buddhists believe that anything negative that we say, think or do directly affects one's soul, the world around and any sentient being whose presence has been tainted by the negative action. And the laws of Karma seek balance, like running water into a basin.

Being a Buddhist is harder than being a Christian.

Christianity is a den of thieves. Not literal thieves, but thieves of the spirit. All Christian denominations seek to separate us. You are either a Christian or an outsider.

The Bible is not a holy book. It was written by men. They were not inspired by God, they were lusting for control.

There is no evidence of a virgin birth and never will be. This is because it never happened. Do you see how flawed Christianity is?

 

[Eightball]

Hate to burst your bubble, but being a Free Mason, Shriner, Rosecrusianist, deist, etc.. does not make a man a theologian.

My father was a Worshipful Past Master of the Scottish Rite Freemasonry Lodge here in our S.F. bay area of California.

First of all, I love and loved my departed dad immensely, but I think he would have agreed with me that "Worshipful Master" is a misnomer of high degree, and in lieu of sound biblical scripture, borders on blasphemous titleing.

My father was a great humanitarian and person. He would have given his right arm for a friend in need. He was that kind of person.

Interestingly, he started attending a bible church years after retirement and his Master's post in the Lodge. He and I used to go round and round about the validity of scripture, and also the precedent that the Lodge set in dictating or teaching both initiates and long standing members a wholly different anti-biblical doctrine which the Lodge stands firmly in denial, about.

Even as Worshipful Master, my father like his predecessors never really read that venerated book on the Masonic alter. The read little snippets for ceremonies, but that was it.

What did happen in my father's later years, was he started to "seek" the truth, rather than assume it through strictly human intellect minus divine inspiration. He actually started to find interest in the sermons in this bible church. He even started to read his big thick, large print bible. We started to observe a change in my father too. He would always give the thank you prayer at special family meals at Thanksgiving and other holidays, and it was the same old "wrote" prayer from his childhood days as an orphan at the Episcopalean Orphanage in Southern California. My Dad perceived religion or Christianity as a bunch of do's and don'ts in order to please a stern unsmiling, detached God above.

Well that started to change. My wife, my mother, and other family member heard a different prayer come from my father's lips. It was not "wrote".......but was as though he was conversing with a live being. It was personal, it had heart-felt meaning and feeling. Tears rolled down from Dad's eyes. He genuinely had crossed the "bridge" of being religious, and discovered the difference in biblical Christianity. Christ wasn't a solemn stature on a cross. He was real! He was loving! He was forgiving, and gracious to an infinite degree! My father never attended another Lodge meeting after that change in his life. When he passed on, my sister and I gave him a beautiful funeral that included no Masonic references. Many of his Masonic friends who attended the funeral were miffed, by this omission on our part. We didn't care if it bothered them or not. Dad had discovered a true relationship with Christ through faith. He no longer sought out wisdom through fraternal rituals as his life's eternal destiny was settled to his peaceful satisfaction.
*******
The Lodge claimed not to be a religion, yet it filled the criteria of a religion right down to the last letter of the alphabet.

Upon the alter of the Lodge is the King James bible which the Mason's are taught to venerate, but not to hold wholly as the only source of divine guidance/wisdom. If you were to attend a Lodge in a predominantly Muslim country, the Quran will be on the alter. I.E. The Zoraster, Quran, King James, Talmud, etc.. all hold precedent to greater and lesser degrees to each lodge according to their cultural and national origin or make up of members.

The main doctrinal book of Freemasonry is called, "The Morals and Dogmas of Freemasonry" by Albert Pike. Albert Pike was a Southern rascist or anti-abolishionist, and former KKK leader of very high rank. This is not denied by the Lodge. There are other Masonic authors whose books are venerated or held up as great samples of wisdom. Try reading them and see if you don't fall asleep trying to read them past page one. Bill Cosby's old LP comedy album titled, "Why Is There Air?", is akin to the questions and ponderings that you will find in books written by venerated Masonic authors.

In the Morals and Dogmas of Freemasonry......again the most venerated book of Freemasonry, Pike, cleary explains that the true God or Divine One of Freemasonry is Luciferian or Lucifer. Masons will "blow off" Pikes assumptions by saying "To each his own. That was Pikes take; not Freemasonry's."

The ultimate 33 degree of Freemasonry, reveals this already known truth.
********
You will find that the literary books of Freemasonry are a hodge-podge of white magic, witch craft, polytheism, monotheism,.......or what we call a little of this and a little of that. Actually, witchcraft which is basically worship of Mother Earth isn't a far cry from Masonic teachings.
******
Freemasonry is supposed to have it's founding roots all the way back to King Solomon of Israel and the Old Testament. This is also rubbish and can't be validated by any ancient scripts or documents, and is just a myth perpetrated by the lodge to "suck" in those folks that have a little "peppering" of Christian bible knowledge, which is common in Western European and American culture.

Initiates also take "blood oaths" that certainly go cross-grain to Christian/biblical principles. You will hear much of a fictional character named Hiram Abiff in these early initiations. Initiates are hooded, and are shirtless. They are taught special handshakes of recognition. The Lions Paw, and many others.

Nowadays, Freemasons will laugh when you bring up the Solomon connection, and say, they don't believe in it anymore. Sadly, their teachings promote it never the less.

Freemasons welcome all who believe in a diety.........Yet, they use the King James in most American Lodges to add some validity to their institutions. The Shriners have the Quran at their alter.........figure that one folks? Yep, thats the funny old boys with the red fuzzy KFC buckets on their heads with yellow tassles. Yep the old boys that like to sit in bars and chase bar flies when their together for a fraternal convention/get-together.

Yes, many of our founding fathers were Masons. In George Washington's later years, he distanced himself from the Lodge, and his writings reflected a solemn change towards biblical Christianity.

For a true Christian to be a Freemason is only via ignorance of the persons understanding of their Christian faith. The organization allows biblical Christians to be members, but Jesus may not be promoted via the ending thanks of a prayer within the confines of the Lodge. The Lodge does not want to promote any one religion or system of faith, yet that in itself is a system of faith to embrace tidbits of all the faiths into one big conglomeration of beliefs that is totally P.C..

Don't get me wrong here. The Lodge has done many beneficial things to our society. Children's burn hospitals and many other wonderful charities.
*********
Again, I hold up Jefferson, Paine, Washington, and many more, as great thinkers, great men of wisdom.........but biblical theologians, no. They themselves wouldn't claim that piety either.......except for possibly Mr. Jefferson, who decided to correct "God" and make a totally P.C. bible (Jeffersonian Bible) for those that believe in Jesus as just one of a myriad roads to eternal life.

It's hard one to swallow and let Jesus be more than a nice guy, a prophet, a very wise man.......but to allow Him to be what He Himself referred to Himself to be in scripter, the Son of God, or Yahweh in the flesh/incarnate, is just too much, and too convicting to the human soul. If Jesus is who He claims to be, then a lot of folks will have a lot more than egg on their faces when they breath their last breath.

 

[Taomon]

Hate to burst your bubble, but being a Free Mason, Shriner, Rosecrusianist, deist, etc.. does not make a man a theologian.

My father was a Worshipful Past Master of the Scottish Rite Freemasonry Lodge here in our S.F. bay area of California.

First of all, I love and loved my departed dad immensely, but I think he would have agreed with me that "Worshipful Master" is a misnomer of high degree, and in lieu of sound biblical scripture, borders on blasphemous titleing.

My father was a great humanitarian and person. He would have given his right arm for a friend in need. He was that kind of person.

Interestingly, he started attending a bible church years after retirement and his Master's post in the Lodge. He and I used to go round and round about the validity of scripture, and also the precedent that the Lodge set in dictating or teaching both initiates and long standing members a wholly different anti-biblical doctrine which the Lodge stands firmly in denial, about.

Even as Worshipful Master, my father like his predecessors never really read that venerated book on the Masonic alter. The read little snippets for ceremonies, but that was it.

What did happen in my father's later years, was he started to "seek" the truth, rather than assume it through strictly human intellect minus divine inspiration. He actually started to find interest in the sermons in this bible church. He even started to read his big thick, large print bible. We started to observe a change in my father too. He would always give the thank you prayer at special family meals at Thanksgiving and other holidays, and it was the same old "wrote" prayer from his childhood days as an orphan at the Episcopalean Orphanage in Southern California. My Dad perceived religion or Christianity as a bunch of do's and don'ts in order to please a stern unsmiling, detached God above.

Well that started to change. My wife, my mother, and other family member heard a different prayer come from my father's lips. It was not "wrote".......but was as though he was conversing with a live being. It was personal, it had heart-felt meaning and feeling. Tears rolled down from Dad's eyes. He genuinely had crossed the "bridge" of being religious, and discovered the difference in biblical Christianity. Christ wasn't a solemn stature on a cross. He was real! He was loving! He was forgiving, and gracious to an infinite degree! My father never attended another Lodge meeting after that change in his life. When he passed on, my sister and I gave him a beautiful funeral that included no Masonic references. Many of his Masonic friends who attended the funeral were miffed, by this omission on our part. We didn't care if it bothered them or not. Dad had discovered a true relationship with Christ through faith. He no longer sought out wisdom through fraternal rituals as his life's eternal destiny was settled to his peaceful satisfaction.
*******
The Lodge claimed not to be a religion, yet it filled the criteria of a religion right down to the last letter of the alphabet.

Upon the alter of the Lodge is the King James bible which the Mason's are taught to venerate, but not to hold wholly as the only source of divine guidance/wisdom. If you were to attend a Lodge in a predominantly Muslim country, the Quran will be on the alter. I.E. The Zoraster, Quran, King James, Talmud, etc.. all hold precedent to greater and lesser degrees to each lodge according to their cultural and national origin or make up of members.

The main doctrinal book of Freemasonry is called, "The Morals and Dogmas of Freemasonry" by Albert Pike. Albert Pike was a Southern rascist or anti-abolishionist, and former KKK leader of very high rank. This is not denied by the Lodge. There are other Masonic authors whose books are venerated or held up as great samples of wisdom. Try reading them and see if you don't fall asleep trying to read them past page one. Bill Cosby's old LP comedy album titled, "Why Is There Air?", is akin to the questions and ponderings that you will find in books written by venerated Masonic authors.

In the Morals and Dogmas of Freemasonry......again the most venerated book of Freemasonry, Pike, cleary explains that the true God or Divine One of Freemasonry is Luciferian or Lucifer. Masons will "blow off" Pikes assumptions by saying "To each his own. That was Pikes take; not Freemasonry's."

The ultimate 33 degree of Freemasonry, reveals this already known truth.
********
You will find that the literary books of Freemasonry are a hodge-podge of white magic, witch craft, polytheism, monotheism,.......or what we call a little of this and a little of that. Actually, witchcraft which is basically worship of Mother Earth isn't a far cry from Masonic teachings.
******
Freemasonry is supposed to have it's founding roots all the way back to King Solomon of Israel and the Old Testament. This is also rubbish and can't be validated by any ancient scripts or documents, and is just a myth perpetrated by the lodge to "suck" in those folks that have a little "peppering" of Christian bible knowledge, which is common in Western European and American culture.

Initiates also take "blood oaths" that certainly go cross-grain to Christian/biblical principles. You will hear much of a fictional character named Hiram Abiff in these early initiations. Initiates are hooded, and are shirtless. They are taught special handshakes of recognition. The Lions Paw, and many others.

Nowadays, Freemasons will laugh when you bring up the Solomon connection, and say, they don't believe in it anymore. Sadly, their teachings promote it never the less.

Freemasons welcome all who believe in a diety.........Yet, they use the King James in most American Lodges to add some validity to their institutions. The Shriners have the Quran at their alter.........figure that one folks? Yep, thats the funny old boys with the red fuzzy KFC buckets on their heads with yellow tassles. Yep the old boys that like to sit in bars and chase bar flies when their together for a fraternal convention/get-together.

Yes, many of our founding fathers were Masons. In George Washington's later years, he distanced himself from the Lodge, and his writings reflected a solemn change towards biblical Christianity.

For a true Christian to be a Freemason is only via ignorance of the persons understanding of their Christian faith. The organization allows biblical Christians to be members, but Jesus may not be promoted via the ending thanks of a prayer within the confines of the Lodge. The Lodge does not want to promote any one religion or system of faith, yet that in itself is a system of faith to embrace tidbits of all the faiths into one big conglomeration of beliefs that is totally P.C..

Don't get me wrong here. The Lodge has done many beneficial things to our society. Children's burn hospitals and many other wonderful charities.
*********
Again, I hold up Jefferson, Paine, Washington, and many more, as great thinkers, great men of wisdom.........but biblical theologians, no. They themselves wouldn't claim that piety either.......except for possibly Mr. Jefferson, who decided to correct "God" and make a totally P.C. bible (Jeffersonian Bible) for those that believe in Jesus as just one of a myriad roads to eternal life.

It's hard one to swallow and let Jesus be more than a nice guy, a prophet, a very wise man.......but to allow Him to be what He Himself referred to Himself to be in scripter, the Son of God, or Yahweh in the flesh/incarnate, is just too much, and too convicting to the human soul. If Jesus is who He claims to be, then a lot of folks will have a lot more than egg on their faces when they breath their last breath.

In a nutshell, no one is an expert unless they believe as you do. Everyone else is unqualified to be a theologian because they do not see your interpretation of truth.

And you wonder why people hate Christians?

 

[Eightball]

In a nutshell, no one is an expert unless they believe as you do. Everyone else is unqualified to be a theologian because they do not see your interpretation of truth.

And you wonder why people hate Christians?

Interesting response........, but not unexpected either.

No where in the bible does Jesus express hate towards those that mocked, arrested, or inevitably killed Him.

Nor did I in my post. So where is this alleged hate for biblical Christians coming from? Let's explore this.
*****
The hate that folks express as yourself comes from what Jesus, not me said in scripture..........Conviction or guilt.

It's disguised or shrouded-over with, "You folks think your right, and were wrong!". Kind of a a "nah, nah, nah, nah" response, that creates a total breakdown of objective commnication.

What I expressed to the board and apparently to you, was from the bible. It isn't eightballsidepocket's authorship. So if you think their is appropriate, "hate" aimed at what I expressed, it is being expressed at both the "author" of what was expressed, as well as the "messenger".

Interestingly, Jesus did tell His disciples, that if they were hated for expressing or bringing the "good news", He was hated as well, and also hated before them.

It is a "hate" for the Jesus that is clearly revealed in scripture. It isn't my debate or fight with you. It is between you and Christ, or more clearly you and your Maker.

So if you don't except the biblical scripture as it is revealed, then there should be no "hate", as you have already indicated that it/bible is not applicable to you?

So there is a contradiction here, isn't there? Hate for biblical Christianity, by those that say they don't believe in it, is a non-sensical response. How can you hate something that shouldn't affect you, since you don't believe it's the truth anyway?

That's the "catch-all" of the bible, and what was revealed in it about mankind. He/mankind denies God's existence or denies God's reality as revealed in the bible, yet reacts to the scripture as though it is trully real or reality applicable to him/mankind.

The best response for one who trully doesn't accept scripture or the bible as the truth, would be to just "say it" and not have an emotional response.......i.e hate......or whatever. To respond with hate, joy, happiness, peace, is evidence that there is some believeable weight to the contents of the scripture.

To have an emotional response is indicative, of one who lays credence or a degree of truthful weight to it, but is resisting in their human will, and mind, what it communicates to them personally. The bible teaches a "one on one" relationship between human beings and God. We don't collectively make or create a relationship with Him. It's me and Him, not me and my wife and Him, or me and my best friend next door, and Him that have a pact. God, is individually working on every individual's soul. Some will express remorse, some guilt, some anger, some peace, some joy, and some indifference; also an expression of a great gift from Him, called free will.

I totally understand your dilemma, and I am not offended by your previous response. It is to be expected if one is trully tossing around in their soul the possibility that the bible may be revealing the truth about man, God, and the whole relationship of the two. The bible/scripture is very personal. It was designed that way.

Paul, notably wrote in his letter to the Romans, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.". It/scripture indeed invokes a response from man. God intended it to. He's personally interested in every man/woman's eternal plight.

 

[Shogun]

How can you hate something that shouldn't affect you, since you don't believe it's the truth anyway?

I guess that depends on how many christians are out forcing their beliefs onto people.


hear any good "athiest in the military" jokes lately? I can give you examples of christians taking an offensive approach to non-christians. Is there any way to blame a non-christian for that?

 

[Eightball]

How can you hate something that shouldn't affect you, since you don't believe it's the truth anyway?

I guess that depends on how many christians are out forcing their beliefs onto people.


hear any good "athiest in the military" jokes lately? I can give you examples of christians taking an offensive approach to non-christians. Is there any way to blame a non-christian for that?

Why don't we define "Forcing their Beliefs" first.

Last time I noticed in my neck of the woods here in the U.S.A., I hadn't seen anyone beheaded or tortured for not accepting the bible.

Last time I remember, Jesus emphatically told His followers to "Turn the other cheek". Doesn't sound very "forceful" from the very Author of Christianity, does it?

Also remember that all those folks in the O.T. that died as a result of God's judgement, are not necessarily going to eternal perishing, but have their moment of truth, and decision reserved. In fact all will or have faced the work of Christ at the cross and will be judged by their response, yeah or nay to His sacrifice for their souls eternal plight.

The N.T. says that during Jesus' 3 days of death, He proclaimed the Good news to those who were "asleep" or waiting.........Which is in reference to all those who died physically in the past in the O.T.. Jesus even condemned many of the people of His day and said that it would go easier for those that perished back in the time of Sodom, than for those nowadays who have actually seen Him and still refuse to believe in Him. Just look up in the book of John about the disciple/apostle Thomas when he first encountered the risen Jesus.

The "Ball" is in our court right now. What will we do with it? A time is coming when the "Ball" will be removed from our hands, and we won't have an opportunity to choose.
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Bill Cosby told a humorous story dating back to his high school metal shop days. He had a metal shop teacher, that the boys called "Mr. Nasty". He was a mean old shop teacher, that constantly nagged the boys, and made metal shop not an enjoyable experience. "Mr. Nasty" had the reputation of getting confessions out of wrong doers with very cruel, but effective strategy.

One day, one of the boys in Cosby's class, decided to play a prank in Mr. Nasty's class. He brought a live bullet from home, and placed it in the metal shop furnace. All the boys in the class new about it, and quietly kept "tink, tink, tinking" away on their projects. There were little subtle chuckles between the boys as they worked on their projects and awaited that bullet's explosion in the furnace.

"POW!", that bullet went off. Mr. Nasty, immediately reacted after figuring out what caused the commotion. "Alright class, who put the bullet in the furnace?". "Tink, tink, tink", the boys quietly concentrated on their metal work projects. No one confessed, so Mr. Nasty applied his infamous method of finding the culprit. "Whoever put that bullet in the furnace must have a real rotten mother.". Immediately the perpetrator, screamed out, "I didn't put the bullet in the furnace, and my mother is not rotten!". Culprit caught............
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If that fictional scenario in the metal shop doesn't visualize what I expressed in my last thread, I don't know what will.

Folks deny things, cause it hurts to admit fault or wrong doing. The old saying, the best offence is a good defense, might have some similarities here. Only, instead of defense, lets replace it with "denial". Denial, is ........

1: refusal to satisfy a request or desire
2 a (1): refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2): assertion that an allegation is false b: refusal to acknowledge a person or a thing : disavowal
3: the opposing by the defendant of an allegation of the opposite party in a lawsuit
4: self-denial
5: negation in logic
6: a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality
— in denial : refusing to admit the truth or reality of something unpleasant <a patient in denial about his health problems>


Mr. Nasty applied an untruth about the perpetrator's mother, but evoked a response of defense, as the perpetrator was carrying guilt or responsibility for the original offense, namely, placing the bullet in the furnace.

Now in the bible, God also makes some pretty brash statements about mankind. One comes to mind from the N.T. book of Romans, in the third chapter and verse number 23, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.". Now, contrary to Mr. Nasty's statement about this young man's, mother's reputation, God doesn't use unprincipled, or shrewdly premised methods to evoke responses from man. He flatly calls it as He sees and knows it!

Now what is man's defense? The bible is thousands of years old, and it's also written by mere man.

Here's where the denial happens. Clearly written in the scripture, it is stated that the bible is inspired by God, but human vessels/people have written down that inspiration for other fellow human beings to receive. Yes, under inspiration, the bible says. Now if God, is is not omnipotent, then I'd have my doubts about man being inspired by God, but I don't, because, I can't create a tree, an amoeba, a sun, a planet, an atom, nor life itself from mere atoms and molecules.

Mankind must refuse that last comment, because if mankind accepts it, then they have a metaphorical, hot potatoe to deal with.

If the bible is written by God-inspired men/women, then what must "I" Mr. Human Being, do with it, or deal with it's communicated contents?

Is that "Force"? If I was resisting what Jesus was saying about my spiritual condition in respect to God's desires, I might think that a "hard court press" was being exacted on me. Physically? No. Mentally? Most likely.

Now to be mentally battered, or feel or think there's exacting force on us, we must in certain ways, accept the statements that have evoked this mental disarray, don't we? I.E.. Romans 3:23......."For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.".

People who don't believe in God, or believe in some higher power other than the one revealed in the bible, will usually react with a certain amount of angst or upset, and claim the "Forcing" defense. What's evoking this upset......Well, it's pretty basic. "I'm not a sinner!" "I don't like being called a sinner!". So the old, "Your forcing your beliefs on me.", defense comes out in technicolor. Why? If one does not accept the bible as inspired by God, then why should one react with more than rejection, but transgress into emotional or reactive denial?

Thats the key to the "God inspired Word". It clearly cuts to the "quick". Paul said that God's word cuts so deep into a man/woman's soul that it is as though it pierced to the very marrow of the bones. Confucious sayings, astrology, fortune cookie nuggets of wisdom or hope, finding one's inner whatever, isn't what Jesus's earthly ministry for 33 human years was about. He flatly came to save the "sick". Sick in health?......Not really, although He convincingly displayed His divinity through the mass healings, mass feedings of thousands, yet He evoked anger, and rejection in many because of those deeds. He upset the "apple cart" of Jewish religious, life. The "sick" were the spiritually "sick", that He came to free or heal. He came to impart His Spirit, or new life in the sick, and or dead human spirits of mankind........the "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." masses of humanity. No one was exempt.

Paul said that one is either alive to the world or alive to God. There is no in-between.

I do understand, that "force" accusation, is in most cases the best defense for resisting the gospel or good news. It's a natural human response. The "force" is the uneasy feeling in the soul, when confronted with one's self smacked right up against what scripture says about us in respect to God's holiness. It's like "fight vs. flight". Of course there is another alternative......."Acceptance", that leads to repentance, which leads to salvation.

All the education or intellect in the world, doesn't negate the natural human beings innate nature. God says that no matter of smarts trumps, our innate, fallen nature before a holy and just God. Christ is the bridge between that "Grand Canyon" or gulf. He was the Passover Lamb. It was His protective blood that was symbolically sprinkled on the lintel posts of the children of Israel's homes while in Egypt when the "death angel" passed over and took the lives of the all the first born males in Egypt that didn't have that sprinkled blood as a protection.

The O.T. is filled with myriads of words, and happenings, pointing straight at Jesus's future incarnation/birth in Bethlehem. Prophets wrote of his birth, and even the form of death by crucifixion hundreds of years before His birth. Their writings of death by crucifixion wasn't even a form of Roman execution at the time of their writings. So much fullfilled prophecy, and so much more that awaits fullfilling. It is awesome to some and chilling to others.

Sadly, people will grab little snippets here and their from scripture and use it to deny, deny, deny.

I've yet to read a novel, and just read snippets and get the full gist of the author's intent.

Yes, your right. There is a force exacted......but it isn't physical, its internal...........it cuts right to the very marrow of man. Now other systems of belief, categorized as religions, do not duplicate or evoke this reaction. Why? Cause they are manmade IMO. When man authors a system of belief, it will give accolades to humanity, and will raise humanity to a pedestal, as it has no other source of inspiration or direction but itself. It has no accountability, but to set it's own parameters.

 

[mattskramer]

I want to answer what I think is the original question for this thread. I don’t speak for all Christians. There are so many translations and interpretations of translations. Then there are groups that put different emphasis on different passages. I’m not even a Christian. Yet, I think that according to “mainstream” Christian thought is as follows:

God gave people “free will”. From the days of Adam and Eve, they were free to disobey God. They were free to doubt, question, and even test his authority. They did so. As a result, God banished Adam and Eve from paradise and eternal peace. He then set up rules and laws for people to follow if they were to ever attain eternal peace (Read “Heaven”) again. Through the years, man continued to choose sin. They doubted the power and existence of God. They replaced this void (loss of a felt connection with God) with other things: other religions, hedonistic practices, etc. Even those that tried to follow God’s law still seemed lost, for they replaced the heart of the law with the letter of the law – they neglected to care for their fellow men. Therefore, while allowing people to still have free will, God sent Jesus in an attempt to steer humanity in the right direction.

In a sense, “God don’t make no trash”. If he did crate imperfection, it was in giving people free will. Anyway, that’s my perspective.

 

[Shogun]

clearly, you are a fan of the ole adage, "if you can't dazzle em with brilliance, baffle em with bullshit".

I take it you've totally missed the threads illustrating how the US military seems to think christianity is a prerequisite for serving our country.

Perhaps you prefer more concrete examples:

And last month, local pagans held a ritual celebration at a local hotel, Wise said. When the room they had rented was found to have a leaky roof, the hotel management moved them to an interior courtyard near the indoor pool. The courtyard was lined with balconies and one guest - at the sight of the witches in their ritual garb - threw a Bible at the group from the balcony, nearly hitting one of them, said Victoria Chance, who is called Taz.

In February 2005, the group’s contract for a spring celebration with the Hannibal Inn and Convention Center - now closed - was canceled after local ministers threatened to boycott the hotel, Wise said.
http://www.columbiatribune.com/2007/Nov/20071103Feat001.asp



Maybe manipulating the nomenclature will keep you from having to address the fact of christian harassment of non-christians...


Thankfully, we NEVER hear a bunch of boohoo martyr croc tears when christians are not allowed to make everyone else conform to their dogma junky beliefs. nope. that NEVER happens.

 

[Shogun]

Last time I remember, Jesus emphatically told His followers to "Turn the other cheek". Doesn't sound very "forceful" from the very Author of Christianity, does it?


Indeed, neither does "turn the other cheek" even REMOTELY sound like a modern christian response to non-conformity to their dogma.

See above.