Check or Checkmate?

[DamnYankee]

Slow economic recovery no help for Obama
An ambitious agenda during a tepid rebound will require money, muscle

ANALYSIS
By JIM KUHNHENN
Associated Press Writer

updated 12:16 p.m. ET, Fri., May 8, 2009
WASHINGTON - Barack Obama's budget, unveiled with fanfare, fails to deal with his biggest money problems.

A molasses-slow economic recovery will make it hard to find the huge sums he'll need to reach his biggest goals — fixing health care, confronting climate change and overhauling the tax system — without much deeper cuts than he's proposing in other programs.

Obama faces not only fiscal obstacles but political ones, as well.

The White House's exercise in fiscal discipline this week amounts to micro-cutting — proposals that would trim half a percent of the overall budget — and don't address the sacrosanct entitlements of Social Security and Medicare. His effort found a scant $17 billion in potential savings, suggesting that only a strong economy and its boost in government revenue can truly put a dent in the federal deficit and pay for Obama's policy goals.

Pushing an ambitious agenda during a tepid economic rebound will require money and presidential muscle that even the popular president might find in short supply.

continued....
Analysis: Slow recovery no help for Obama - White House- msnbc.com

I would ask, as I did pre-election, where, exactly, did Obama believe the $$ would come from to support/advance his "goals"? Did he believe that by voting for the "stimulus", and later authorizing an additional payout, that this would take care of itself, making the question irrelevant? Did he believe that the "unnecessary war" would finance his dreams once he showed us that there were other fish to fry? Finally, what happened to Pay(as you)Go?

 

[editec]

Were you asking yourself if it was a good thing to ship industry offshore, or did you tell yourself the free market was more important than a free America?

 

[DamnYankee]

Were you asking yourself if it was a good thing to ship industry offshore, or did you tell yourself the free market was more important than a free America?

Myself? No. My reps? Damned right!

 

[editec]

Were you asking yourself if it was a good thing to ship industry offshore, or did you tell yourself the free market was more important than a free America?

Myself? No. My reps? Damned right!

So you do understand that FREE TRADE (an invention of both parties) was a deadly policy which is bankrupting the American people and the American nation?

Good for you.

 

[DamnYankee]

Were you asking yourself if it was a good thing to ship industry offshore, or did you tell yourself the free market was more important than a free America?

Myself? No. My reps? Damned right!

So you do understand that FREE TRADE (an invention of both parties) was a deadly policy which is bankrupting the American people and the American nation?

Good for you.

Was that a note of condescension detected in the question? By all means.... Feel free to inquire as to my "feelings" about the "bipartisan" policies of NAFTA for example.... No need to even venture offshore....

 

[editec]

It wasn't condenseding at all.

I merely didn't know what position you took on what I consider the biggest mistake (or affront on our nation, depending on what motive you ascribe to its authors) America has made in the last fifty years.

 

[DamnYankee]

It wasn't condenseding at all.

I merely didn't know what position you took on what I consider the biggest mistake (or affront on our nation, depending on what motive you ascribe to its authors) America has made in the last fifty years.

One would presume that, after having been given an answer (previously), the "So you do understand...." would have been unnecessary to clarify the position. Must be the coffee....

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Were you asking yourself if it was a good thing to ship industry offshore, or did you tell yourself the free market was more important than a free America?

Myself? No. My reps? Damned right!

So you do understand that FREE TRADE (an invention of both parties) was a deadly policy which is bankrupting the American people and the American nation?

Good for you.

Jobs going overseas were a result of more and more government taxation and interference in business increasing over decades, and more and more massive labor expense. It had nothing to do with NAFTA or any other "free trade" agreement. You also conveniently forget that technology is responsible for the loss of more than half the manufacturing jobs.

However, when you make the US a friendly place to do business, manufacturing jobs will come back. Right now it's a hostile environment especially for manufacturing. But keep in mind it will never be like it was, technology used for jobs such as the drafting all the way to the polishing of the finished product has replaced hundreds of thousands of workers. And will continue to do so as technology continues to advance.

 

[mash107]

Were you asking yourself if it was a good thing to ship industry offshore, or did you tell yourself the free market was more important than a free America?

All the companies have to go offshore. They're being forced. It's not like enough capital exists here, as the government borrows it all to spend on stimulus packages and bailouts.

 

[NOBama]

Myself? No. My reps? Damned right!

So you do understand that FREE TRADE (an invention of both parties) was a deadly policy which is bankrupting the American people and the American nation?

Good for you.

Jobs going overseas were a result of more and more government taxation and interference in business increasing over decades, and more and more massive labor expense. It had nothing to do with NAFTA or any other "free trade" agreement. You also conveniently forget that technology is responsible for the loss of more than half the manufacturing jobs.

However, when you make the US a friendly place to do business, manufacturing jobs will come back. Right now it's a hostile environment especially for manufacturing. But keep in mind it will never be like it was, technology used for jobs such as the drafting all the way to the polishing of the finished product has replaced hundreds of thousands of workers. And will continue to do so as technology continues to advance.

I don't think MFG will ever come back to the US and the environmentalists will make sure of it.

 

[DamnYankee]

Myself? No. My reps? Damned right!

So you do understand that FREE TRADE (an invention of both parties) was a deadly policy which is bankrupting the American people and the American nation?

Good for you.

Jobs going overseas were a result of more and more government taxation and interference in business increasing over decades, and more and more massive labor expense. It had nothing to do with NAFTA or any other "free trade" agreement. You also conveniently forget that technology is responsible for the loss of more than half the manufacturing jobs.

However, when you make the US a friendly place to do business, manufacturing jobs will come back. Right now it's a hostile environment especially for manufacturing. But keep in mind it will never be like it was, technology used for jobs such as the drafting all the way to the polishing of the finished product has replaced hundreds of thousands of workers. And will continue to do so as technology continues to advance.

I'd ask that you take a step back in history and review which came first.
Public Citizen | NAFTA - North American Free Trade Agreement - North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)
This "experiment" seems to have led to the rest of the "interference".

 

[Midnight Marauder]

I'd ask that you take a step back in history and review which came first.

This "experiment" seems to have led to the rest of the "interference".

Baloney. Jobs started disappearing with the invention of CAD in the 70s, then computer controls, then robots, and other labor-saving technologies. Massive govt restrictions and taxation on businesses started in the 70s and increased on a geometric scale. Labor costs and benefits skyrocketed starting in the late 70s. Shipping jobs overseas is nothing new, and wasn't made first-time legal by "free trade" agreements. It was merely made cost-effective by all I stated above.

Folks who blame ONLY NAFTA and other "free trade" agreements merely have a myopic view driven mostly by partisanship, and really don't know too much about what has been going on for the last 30 years in the industrial world. Agree with "free trade" agreements or not, doesn't really matter but realize that these are only a small fraction of the issue, and a relatively new part of it at that. The problems existed long before passage of such measures and they have nothing to do with hiring foreign companies to build widgets 80% cheaper.

 

[DamnYankee]

I'd ask that you take a step back in history and review which came first.

This "experiment" seems to have led to the rest of the "interference".

Baloney. Jobs started disappearing with the invention of CAD in the 70s, then computer controls, then robots, and other labor-saving technologies. Massive govt restrictions and taxation on businesses started in the 70s and increased on a geometric scale. Labor costs and benefits skyrocketed starting in the late 70s. Shipping jobs overseas is nothing new, and wasn't made first-time legal by "free trade" agreements. It was merely made cost-effective by all I stated above.

Folks who blame ONLY NAFTA and other "free trade" agreements merely have a myopic view driven mostly by partisanship, and really don't know too much about what has been going on for the last 30 years in the industrial world. Agree with "free trade" agreements or not, doesn't really matter but realize that these are only a small fraction of the issue, and a relatively new part of it at that. The problems existed long before passage of such measures and they have nothing to do with hiring foreign companies to build widgets 80% cheaper.

I'm sorry.... I clearly stated (previously) that NAFTA was a bipartisan load of crap. Signed and supported by a Dem President and further supported by a Rep President. What I also blame for problem is the failure to educate/train our own workers, looking instead to those who were clearly more advanced than we were -- whether it was by sending the work out, or by bringing them here on "temporary" work visas. All I'm saying is that there was ORGANIZED and LEGALIZED displacement that was plain to see, and it no one seemed to give a damn.

 

[DamnYankee]

Anyway to get back to the OP?

 

[Midnight Marauder]

I'm sorry.... I clearly stated (previously) that NAFTA was a bipartisan load of crap. Signed and supported by a Dem President and further supported by a Rep President. What I also blame for problem is the failure to educate/train our own workers, looking instead to those who were clearly more advanced than we were -- whether it was by sending the work out, or by bringing them here on "temporary" work visas. All I'm saying is that there was ORGANIZED and LEGALIZED displacement that was plain to see, and it no one seemed to give a damn.

Again, the displacement of jobs has alot more to do with a hostile business environment coupled with better technology here, than it does or ever will have to do with NAFTA or any other "free trade" agreement. It's just bullshit to assert otherwise.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Myself? No. My reps? Damned right!

So you do understand that FREE TRADE (an invention of both parties) was a deadly policy which is bankrupting the American people and the American nation?

Good for you.

Jobs going overseas were a result of more and more government taxation and interference in business increasing over decades, and more and more massive labor expense. It had nothing to do with NAFTA or any other "free trade" agreement. You also conveniently forget that technology is responsible for the loss of more than half the manufacturing jobs.

However, when you make the US a friendly place to do business, manufacturing jobs will come back. Right now it's a hostile environment especially for manufacturing. But keep in mind it will never be like it was, technology used for jobs such as the drafting all the way to the polishing of the finished product has replaced hundreds of thousands of workers. And will continue to do so as technology continues to advance.

Technology is the true death of traditional manufacturing. If anyone has ever been or going through Florence, SC, take a chance to tour the Fiber Industries Polyester plant. The plant was rebuilt almost from the ground up in the late 1980's and repeatedly modernized in the 20 years since. It use to employ over 5,000 workers and today employs fewer the 500, yet it produces 13X the amount of polyester it ever did as a manual worker plant. It is almost 100% automated process from the arrival of the chemicals to extrusion process, to the cutting and pilling all the way to the finished goods stocking and shipping/order fulfillment process. The only "workers" are equipment maintenance folks, the IT folks that run the computers, and management, HR, finance and sales staff.

Technology, not free trade and offshoring killed the domestic textile industry. The only thing that saved steel, somewhat is automated manufacturing.

 

[DamnYankee]

So you do understand that FREE TRADE (an invention of both parties) was a deadly policy which is bankrupting the American people and the American nation?

Good for you.

Jobs going overseas were a result of more and more government taxation and interference in business increasing over decades, and more and more massive labor expense. It had nothing to do with NAFTA or any other "free trade" agreement. You also conveniently forget that technology is responsible for the loss of more than half the manufacturing jobs.

However, when you make the US a friendly place to do business, manufacturing jobs will come back. Right now it's a hostile environment especially for manufacturing. But keep in mind it will never be like it was, technology used for jobs such as the drafting all the way to the polishing of the finished product has replaced hundreds of thousands of workers. And will continue to do so as technology continues to advance.

Technology is the true death of traditional manufacturing. If anyone has ever been or going through Florence, SC, take a chance to tour the Fiber Industries Polyester plant. The plant was rebuilt almost from the ground up in the late 1980's and repeatedly modernized in the 20 years since. It use to employ over 5,000 workers and today employs fewer the 500, yet it produces 13X the amount of polyester it ever did as a manual worker plant. It is almost 100% automated process from the arrival of the chemicals to extrusion process, to the cutting and pilling all the way to the finished goods stocking and shipping/order fulfillment process. The only "workers" are equipment maintenance folks, the IT folks that run the computers, and management, HR, finance and sales staff.

Technology, not free trade and offshoring killed the domestic textile industry. The only thing that saved steel, somewhat is automated manufacturing.

Still way off the original point of this thread, but is this some kind of advocacy for remaining stagnant? Or doesn't it take people to design/create/maintain the technology? And wasn't one of the problems here (textiles) that the product was found to be soooo much more inexpensive to produce/procure/import from foreign sweat shops that it made technology virtually necessary in order to keep any semblance of manufacturing going here? Do you blame the government or the business owners for that? For cutting their costs anyway they could in order to make larger profits?

 

[editec]

Technology is no threat to American workers.

Free trade (which is neither fre nor fair) certainly is.

Most of the technology you people think changed the work place is now in China since it makes more sense (thanks to our trade policies) to make stuff there and sell it here.

 

[mash107]

Technology is no threat to American workers.

Free trade (which is neither fre nor fair) certainly is.

Most of the technology you people think changed the work place is now in China since it makes more sense (thanks to our trade policies) to make stuff there and sell it here.

Free trade is the greatest thing we still have yet. It's what makes eating affordable. I wouldn't want to pay 10x more for American corn just because it grew in some place in bumfuck Kentucky, go ahead, but I sure as hell won't. You are looking at the symptom, not the cause. The cause is simply when government spends too much money, it drives companies to places where capital is, and that's certainly not here. We've spent it all on wars and entitlements.

 

[DamnYankee]

Technology is no threat to American workers.

Free trade (which is neither fre nor fair) certainly is.

Most of the technology you people think changed the work place is now in China since it makes more sense (thanks to our trade policies) to make stuff there and sell it here.

Free trade is the greatest thing we still have yet. It's what makes eating affordable. I wouldn't want to pay 10x more for American corn just because it grew in some place in bumfuck Kentucky, go ahead, but I sure as hell won't. You are looking at the symptom, not the cause. The cause is simply when government spends too much money, it drives companies to places where capital is, and that's certainly not here. We've spent it all on wars and entitlements.

And then you'll be wondering why the FDA needed more funds and additional employees....