Zone1 The Roman Catholic idea of "Purgatory?"

[DennisPTate]

From the Catholic perspective, you are making the case for purgatory. Let's look at that.


Notice Paul's astonishment that some were taking his words that sin did not matter. This is because Paul understood repentance/change of heart for the forgiveness of sins--the turn from disobedience to obedience. Our past sins can come back to haunt us, even though we gave them up long ago and turned to obedience. Paul's words assure us these sins have been nailed to the cross, erased, and long forgotten. Let's consider the case you brought up:


Jesus told the woman, "...nor do I condemn you; go and sin no more."

Let's consider the these possibilities. The first is that the woman never again committed adultery, she turned to obedience and a happy ending. But note that Jesus used the word 'condemn' not 'forgive'. In Judaism/Hebrew there is a difference. Condemn is used as a judicial assessment of wrongdoing that serves as a call to repentance/the return to right action and correction. Forgiveness involves restitution and repentance/the return to right action and correction.

The second possibility is that (let's say) the woman tried, but she could not overcome the sin of adultery and return to right action--and she dies. Her heart could not give up that attachment to sin and turn to God. Note she was trying. Whatever our sinful attachments may be when we die, is it an "oh well" situation where both the sin and sinner are welcomed into heaven? Or, is there a purification/rehabilitation process (purgatory) to overcome that attachment to sin so that one's heart may experience the bliss of being attached totally to God?

Jesus expected correction and a return to right action from this woman--and he told her so in the words of that time.



This has us returning to the question, Has one's heart completely given up its attachment to sin/disobedience to God, or has it kept the attachment to that little bit of that sinful pleasure for oneself? Is God going to accept sin into heaven?



Remember that both forgiveness and the words of condemnation expect/require giving up and/or providing restitution for that wrong-doing. Those were Jesus words--over and over again when he was speaking of forgiveness and not condemning.

In the English language, words evolve into different/other meanings. The Hebrew/Aramaic retain the same meanings over time. Remember Jews (and Jesus) used that concept of purgatory for the heart still attached to a sin(s).

Your answers on this topic are exceptionally good.

On one side of all of this I know of Christians who had a near death experience and when they met with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and reviewed their lives with Him, they did not feel condemnation from Him, [but they did look back and they wished that they had lived their lives differently].

All near death experiencers who have met Jesus during a brush with death seem to be determined to live out the rest of their lives very differently than how they lived before their near death experience.

 

[Meriweather]

On one side of all of this I know of Christians who had a near death experience and when they met with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and reviewed their lives with Him, they did not feel condemnation from Him, [but they did look back and they wished that they had lived their lives differently].

This wish to have lived life differently is wonderful--and it shows true repentance. Don't we go through this when, at the end of the day, we go over our own actions wishing we had done something differently (if we knew then, what we knew at the end of the day). There is also the scenario someone saying this is what you did wrong, and then arguing with that person why what you did was not wrong at all.

What would happen if one met Jesus, reviewed their life with him, and began arguing that they had actually been right in all their decisions and would not change a thing?

 

[DennisPTate]

This wish to have lived life differently is wonderful--and it shows true repentance. Don't we go through this when, at the end of the day, we go over our own actions wishing we had done something differently (if we knew then, what we knew at the end of the day). There is also the scenario someone saying this is what you did wrong, and then arguing with that person why what you did was not wrong at all.

What would happen if one met Jesus, reviewed their life with him, and began arguing that they had actually been right in all their decisions and would not change a thing?

Wow!

That would be an astonishingly dangerous approach to take during our meeting with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus during a brush with death or by some other means!

There is a saying that without "HUMILITY" we cannot perceive heaven or the things of heaven.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Yes. I'll be astonished if sin is welcomed and embraced in heaven. I don't know about others, but I look forward to the time where no sin has any hold on my heart at all. I'll happily undergo the rehabilitation/purification process to rid myself of those sins.

The ones Jesus was unable to remove?

 

[DennisPTate]

The ones Jesus was unable to remove?

Former Atheist and near death experiencer Howard Storm was shown some things about human freedom that was very difficult for me to understand at first by a couple of decades later I think that maybe I am beginning to catch onto this idea.

7. Howard Storm Learns He Must Return to Earth​

...
I asked them, “But what about my own sense of failure? You’ve shown me how I can be better, and I’m sure I can’t live up to that. I’m not that good.” Some of my self-centeredness welled up and I said, “No way. I’m not going back.”

They said, “There are people who care about you; your wife, your children, your mother and father. You should go back for them. Your children need your help.”

I said, “You can help them. If you make me go back there are things that just won’t work. If I go back there and make mistakes I won’t be able to stand it because you’ve shown me I could be more loving and more compassionate and I’ll forget. I’ll be mean to someone or I’ll do something awful to someone. I just know it’s going to happen because I’m a human being. I’m going to blow it and I won’t be able to stand it. I’ll feel so bad I’ll want to kill myself and I can’t do that because life is precious. I might just go catatonic. So you can’t send me back.”

They assured me that mistakes are an acceptable part of being human. “Go,” they said, “and make all the mistakes you want. Mistakes are how you learn.” As long as I tried to do what I knew was right, they said, I would be on the right path. If I made a mistake, I should fully recognize it as a mistake, then put it behind me and simply try not to make the same mistake again. The important things is to try one’s best, keep one’s standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise those to win people’s approval.

Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience - Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife profiles Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience . Did you enjoy reading this post, we have more!

near-death.com

I have read of some unusual experiences where somebody met somebody in heaven who was able to encourage them by admitting to many flaws and terrible errors. The point was to help this other person feel more at home in heaven. In heaven our level of pride and insecurity and feelings of inferiority go down to zero. Actually feelings of insecurity and inferiority are actually a form of pride that acts like it is humility, [but it isn't].

 

[The Irish Ram]

There is no sin that Jesus overlooked. You simply can not work your way into Heaven, regardless of where you are.

Eph2:7-8 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

 

[Meriweather]

The ones Jesus was unable to remove?

Would the analogy be that any sin one has not been overcome in this life, Jesus will remove surgically in the next?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Would the analogy be that any sin one has not been overcome in this life, Jesus will remove surgically in the next?

Colossians 2:13–14 “And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross”.

The word all means “any, every, the whole of.” Thus, all of our sins—past, present, and future—were nailed to the cross and completely forgiven ( Psalm 103:12 and 1 Peter 2:24).

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life”.

John wrote this epistle to reassure believers of their eternal salvation, which is a present and future reality (John 3:16). But if only our past sins are forgiven, then we could not know that we are saved, and John would be a liar. John is not a liar (John 1:14; 1 John 1:1–4). We know that our salvation is eternally secure. Our past, present, and future sins have been eternally forgiven (John 10:25–30).

Trust John. Trust Paul. Absent from the body is present with the Lord.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I hate to admit it but I think that you are correct, there definitely do seem to be two very different places to go in the afterlife!

I was an Atheist until Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong got me to believe in the "Soul Sleep" doctrine but once I began to read these NDE accounts I could no longer understand the scriptures in that way.

By the way I am partly Irish myself.

You chose peoples experience during the dying process over Scripture.

Have you considered other things may be going on, including LYING by at least a percentage?

Alex Malarkey's admission:
In 2015, Alex Malarkey, the author of The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven, publicly stated that his story was a hoax, explaining, "I did not die. I did not go to Heaven... I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention".

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Paradise is a place among the spirits of the dead

It doesn't say what you're saying

 

[Carl in Michigan]

It DOES SAY, however....

For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Psalm 6:5 )

For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

NO MAN has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven.

The wages of sin is DEATH, but the GIFT OF GOD is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord

Your desire to believe in NDEs is completely opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You want to believe in an ETERNAL SOUL, but the Scriptures teach that a continuation of this MORTAL existence as IMMORTAL Sins of God ONLY COMES AS A GIFT OF GOD when you accept Christs sacrifice

 

[onefour1]

It doesn't say what you're saying

It doesn't literal say, "Paradise is among the spirits who are dead". But Jesus, upon dying, went among the dead spirits and preached his gospel and only returned on the third day. So if Jesus was among the dead spirits on the same day that he died and hadn't yet ascend to his Father in heaven as he told Mary upon his resurrection, then where do you suppose Paradise is if Jesus told the thief on the cross that TODAY he would be with Jesus in Paradise? The thief himself died and It can be assumed that they met that same day in Paradise among the dead spirits that Jesus went to preach to. It couldn't have been in heaven since Jesus told marry upon his resurrection that he had not yet ascended to heaven. So the logical conclusion is that Paradise is among the spirits who are dead. Joseph F. Smith, the nephew of the the prophet Joseph Smith who also became a prophet had the following vision after praying about the verse of the Bible that speak of Jesus going to preach among the spirits of the dead.

Doctrine and Covenants 138

 

[Carl in Michigan]

But Jesus, upon dying, went among the dead spirit

No, it doesn't say that
It says He preached to the spirits in PRISON. This is the DEMON world, not dead humans

 

[onefour1]

No, it doesn't say that
It says He preached to the spirits in PRISON. This is the DEMON world, not dead humans

It does not say they are demons. Demons are the spirits of those in the war in heaven who sided with Lucifer and were cast out of heaven along with him for coming out in open rebellion against God. There would be no need to preach to demons since they have already lost their salvation. The spirits in prison are those spirits who have died who have not received the gospel of Jesus Christ and still have a chance to be saved. Those among the spirits of the dead who do receive the gospel are considered to be those in paradise.

Doctrine and Covenants 138

 

[Meriweather]

Colossians 2:13–14 “And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross”.

The word all means “any, every, the whole of.” Thus, all of our sins—past, present, and future—were nailed to the cross and completely forgiven ( Psalm 103:12 and 1 Peter 2:24).

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life”.

John wrote this epistle to reassure believers of their eternal salvation, which is a present and future reality (John 3:16). But if only our past sins are forgiven, then we could not know that we are saved, and John would be a liar. John is not a liar (John 1:14; 1 John 1:1–4). We know that our salvation is eternally secure. Our past, present, and future sins have been eternally forgiven (John 10:25–30).

Trust John. Trust Paul. Absent from the body is present with the Lord.

That total indifference to sin is fascinating. Reminds me of another poster who insists there is no such thing as sin as God made us the way he made us and is completely satisfied the way we are, sin and all. No need for improvement. Also, apparently no need to pay any attention at all to Biblical passages that note God calls us to another ideal.

 

[Leo123]

That total indifference to sin is fascinating. Reminds me of another poster who insists there is no such thing as sin as God made us the way he made us and is completely satisfied the way we are, sin and all. No need for improvement. Also, apparently no need to pay any attention at all to Biblical passages that note God calls us to another ideal.

I was born and raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools, etc. I was taught there is Purgatory and Limbo and those who, for lack of a better word, are Atheists, go to Limbo which is not heaven or Hell. There to stay I guess for an 'eternity' or maybe when God decides to let them in. One of the many things that led be to become a recovering Catholic as an adult.

 

[Meriweather]

I was born and raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools, etc. I was taught there is Purgatory and Limbo and those who, for lack of a better word, are Atheists, go to Limbo which is not heaven or Hell. There to stay I guess for an 'eternity' or maybe when God decides to let them in. One of the many things that led be to become a recovering Catholic as an adult.

I was taught by the Sisters of Notre Dame. They noted that for some odd reason "Limbo" became a place, but the original idea is that neither the Bible nor Apostolic tradition noted what happens to the unbaptized, babies, atheists, etc. In other words, it was the Church who was in limbo as to God's plans for these--meaning they had nothing in the Bible nor Apostolic tradition to go on.

 

[The Irish Ram]

That total indifference to sin is fascinating. Reminds me of another poster who insists there is no such thing as sin as God made us the way he made us and is completely satisfied the way we are, sin and all. No need for improvement. Also, apparently no need to pay any attention at all to Biblical passages that note God calls us to another ideal.

It isn't indifference to sin, it is the working your way out of sin that contradicts scripture. Jesus' blood completely covered your sins. Completely. John new Him. Trust what John tells you.

They noted that for some odd reason "Limbo" became a place

Purgatory is just as odd.

It doesn't literal say, "Paradise is among the spirits who are dead". But Jesus, upon dying, went among the dead spirits and preached his gospel and only returned on the third day. So if Jesus was among the dead spirits on the same day that he died and hadn't yet ascend to his Father in heaven as he told Mary upon his resurrection, then where do you suppose Paradise is if Jesus told the thief on the cross that TODAY he would be with Jesus in Paradise? The thief himself died and It can be assumed that they met that same day in Paradise among the dead spirits that Jesus went to preach to. It couldn't have been in heaven since Jesus told marry upon his resurrection that he had not yet ascended to heaven. So the logical conclusion is that Paradise is among the spirits who are dead. Joseph F. Smith, the nephew of the the prophet Joseph Smith who also became a prophet had the following vision after praying about the verse of the Bible that speak of Jesus going to preach among the spirits of the dead.

Doctrine and Covenants 138

Paradise was also used to describe Abraham's Bosom. They were souls that belonged to God, but Christ had not yet paid for their sins so they couldn't go to Heaven. Jesus gathered them up, and they came back with Him when He returned. They hung out for 40 days before they were resurrected to Heaven with Christ.
Hell was across a chasm, and those there could see and hear Jesus, but they had died in their sin and will be brought back at the White Throne Judgment.

Matthew 27:52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life

 

[DennisPTate]

It isn't indifference to sin, it is the working your way out of sin that contradicts scripture. Jesus' blood completely covered your sins. Completely. John new Him. Trust what John tells you.

Purgatory is just as odd.

Paradise was also used to describe Abraham's Bosom. They were souls that belonged to God, but Christ had not yet paid for their sins so they couldn't go to Heaven. Jesus gathered them up, and they came back with Him when He returned. They hung out for 40 days before they were resurrected to Heaven with Christ.
Hell was across a chasm, and those there could see and hear Jesus, but they had died in their sin and will be brought back at the White Throne Judgment.

Matthew 27:52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life

But didn't the Apostle Paul make it plain and clear that he himself was fighting against his own flesh?

Didn't he make it clear that he had to discipline his body so that he didn't fall into temptation?

The way that Paul taught and wrote and spoke, I would guess that there were probably all kinds of young ladies who might have been interested in Paul?

The fact that the Romans allowed Paul the freedom to write hints that if he had cooperated a little more with Rome they might have put him to work for Rome? The Romans who spent time in Judaea certainly noticed that Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus did not teach that Rome should be overthrown, but instead that taxes should be paid to Rome.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The Romans put Paul under house arrest so he wrote letters. He left Rome after they released him, but then returned and they killed him. There was something that bothered Paul, but we aren't told what it was. He asked God to remove the problem, and God asked Paul why His salvation wasn't enough. Yikes...