Cannot see how NDEs are so easily dismissed by many scientists or skeptics

[HaShev]

quote:"Everyone is a liar"

No I never eluded to that, I am saying they think what's told them is true, however there's nany missing factors in their logic.
You have to be honest and look at all pissibke explainations not just your own conclusions based on blinders.
Let's take one of the many possible answers:
"selective recognition".
How many claims to OBE did not correctly guess the number of people in the room and the music played during their supposed passing?
You do not have this figure because you were only interested in the one story that fit your needs while ignoring ones that shoot down your arguments.
Remember I said this selective recognition is used by Christian pastors to sell Christianity to the naive masses who have not figured out the parlor trick of setting the initiates to focus on the one single time while ignoring the numerical mass of times those things did not take place.

Pass the story down the line you already know is a major issue, if you are not an eye witness then you have to trust others and their motive and even then people do not even make good eye witnesses to their own events.
Your religion is based on this problem of converging stories and figures who shared similar names and titles thus easilly twisted down the line in an era with poor communications.

Did you do the blindfold test, ear plug test on the claimed subject? No, but we akready know the result=processor required.

Did you make the risen subject a god?
Then your argument threw Jesus and your religion under the bus.

 

[OZman]

Zohar Genesis Chapter LXXXVII. Kabbalistic Philosophy of the Soul

 

[turzovka]

Objective? Other than watching hamster in a wheel?
I can't speak and I can go out for extended periods so yes, this is a form of learning and entertainment. It is a distractions. Maybe I am waiting for someone to be smart enough to actually prove something or find some compromise or way to accept others not like themselves.

My views are right for me. I admire people of faith as long as they don't try to convince me I am going to hell. I understand how faith can help some get though trouble in life as long as they don't suspend all logic in the process. I was raised around dozens of religions but found none more real than another. Discussing and arguing religion with true experts is interesting and educational but I don't have to hold to their beliefs.

I think because I can. I am not about to turn by brain off and follow the rest of the lemmings. If I were to believe it would be in something real not some fable.

Why are any of us here if not for our own amusement in some way. You thing you are going to convert others with your logic? You think if you save some soul that you will find your own place in some heaven? IF you can't argue your own beliefs, how can you convince others that you are right? People are not going to believe in your idea of god just because you say so, unless they are mentally defendant in some way. Because god said so is not a valid answer for religion.
There are logical reason for not stealing or killing. Simply telling others that it is god's will is not logical.

I've seen some of the best aspects in people that believe and I've seen the absolute worst. Doing something because some god said so is not a good enough reason. A god that needs to threaten with hell fire and damnation is a bully. People that need to use god as a threat to control others are as bad.

This is the only lie we should be concerned with, not some after life or next life. Hell is of our making here and now not something to anticipate because of some judgement of others. If you can't love and accept those who are different or even worst of mankind and you call yourself a man of god then I don't have reason to trust or believe you.

It should not be about converting but just accepting people who are the way they are. No judgement, no scorn, not hate, just accept. If there is a problem, help them but don't expect some miraculous change in them. If they are troubled, be a friend. Don't make them in your image, you just might be wrong. Consider that possibility before you tell others what to believe or what is right or wrong.

There might be a god, but logic tells me not to bank on it. There might be benefit in prayer but I will trust science. There might be a hell but if I love what I see as a logical and ethical life I'm not going to worry about something that may or may not happen after my death.

We have brains for a reason. We should not blindly refuse to use them because of a fairy tale. If after all examination you choose to believe, if you have proved to yourself beyond any shadow of a doubt at all then good for your. If you tell me that you are right and can't prove it to me, then I will not believe you. If you threaten me then you have already lost the argument. Twisting my arm to convert is not a real belief or conversation. A prisoner that converts to radical islam at the point of a sword or fear of suffer pain and death is not a true belief, just lip service. Brainwashing is not real belief. Dying for your faith is just a waste of a life. Living as an example of your faith, a faith of love and caring of other life, of all people is more worthy of life. Counting bodies or soul you save is not. Expecting a reward of heaven or rapture is not. Presuming a belief in some book or god makes you more deserving or better than others is not.

I've seen what an insistent faith in religion or god can do to the world. Not pretty. I can't believe they are going to any heaven or be near any god worthy of my time or consideration. I will trust my brain to guide me. I will trust what I can see, what I know. I will trust my experience. I will trust what I can prove, or that can be proved to me.

I'm here to watch the hamsters till they learn to think for themselves and escape the wheel or can prove to me that running the wheel is the only perfection there is to life in the universe.

I question who is twisting your arm to believe? You say you resent others’ opinions on these matters, why is that? Because they question yours? That makes one feel violated? I welcome it. Why is it, according to you, that only those who deny God’s reality are using their brains, but those who spent years deliberating many messages and accounts and come to believe are not using their brains? What kind of “logical” statement is that?

I ask you do not judge my faith by including what other faiths or religions may have done or said.

I submit what you accuse Christians of being like (harmful to others) is not a valid justification to disprove the truth. There will always be great sinners and scoundrels in the faith. How does that discredit the majority of other who try to do all those charitable acts you try to associate only with those who have no belief in God? How does the sinning of some believers destroy the message? Or the reality of Jesus Christ?

But since all of the historical claims, all of the goodness in the teachings, all of the charity performed by the Church and the faithful over centuries (so easily dismissed and glossed over because we also sin) does nothing for you, then what do you demand? You demand supernatural proof. Miracles that you can accept. But you are not disposed to believe, you are disposed to deny. Your words make that clear to me. You are making it very hard on yourself. Or perhaps you simply do not want to believe as I already proffered? How can a mere, vulnerable witness break through those walls?

Note, I am not here to puff myself up. I am not trying to show God look what I did. That is not Christian. But as a believing Christian the Word implores us not to keep our faith to ourselves but to share it with others, along with also caring for our neighbor. I do not accept Christianity has been a bully by any means, I look at all of history and I can count all of the goodness, advancements, civilizing boorish cultures, yielding education and hospitals and care for the most needy, the giving of ones’ lives, and so on far beyond what I mention, and I see the goodness of God amongst us sinners who still believe and repent of our weaknesses and sinful ways.

And, yes, we are human and we do seek the Lord’s promises of eternal life. You declare that makes all of our acts of charity and sacrifice as disingenuous? That is quite a brazen denunciation. No, we recognize who God is and what He asks of us. We do so because we want to follow our Lord and in so doing we become more blessed ourselves. The thought of evaporating into oblivion upon death and never seeing our loved ones again is very much hard to bear. Atheism is dour. I not only want to save myself, but those dear to me. Tell me that is not more honorable than selfish. Feel free to call us hamsters on a wheel or sheep. Yes we are sheep, but only willing to follow the one good shepherd.

 

[HaShev]

quote: "Yes we are sheep, but only willing to follow the one good shepherd."

What good shepherd gets his sheep scattered and slaughtered? That's a shepherd who gets fired.

 

[aris2chat]

Objective? Other than watching hamster in a wheel?
I can't speak and I can go out for extended periods so yes, this is a form of learning and entertainment. It is a distractions. Maybe I am waiting for someone to be smart enough to actually prove something or find some compromise or way to accept others not like themselves.

My views are right for me. I admire people of faith as long as they don't try to convince me I am going to hell. I understand how faith can help some get though trouble in life as long as they don't suspend all logic in the process. I was raised around dozens of religions but found none more real than another. Discussing and arguing religion with true experts is interesting and educational but I don't have to hold to their beliefs.

I think because I can. I am not about to turn by brain off and follow the rest of the lemmings. If I were to believe it would be in something real not some fable.

Why are any of us here if not for our own amusement in some way. You thing you are going to convert others with your logic? You think if you save some soul that you will find your own place in some heaven? IF you can't argue your own beliefs, how can you convince others that you are right? People are not going to believe in your idea of god just because you say so, unless they are mentally defendant in some way. Because god said so is not a valid answer for religion.
There are logical reason for not stealing or killing. Simply telling others that it is god's will is not logical.

I've seen some of the best aspects in people that believe and I've seen the absolute worst. Doing something because some god said so is not a good enough reason. A god that needs to threaten with hell fire and damnation is a bully. People that need to use god as a threat to control others are as bad.

This is the only lie we should be concerned with, not some after life or next life. Hell is of our making here and now not something to anticipate because of some judgement of others. If you can't love and accept those who are different or even worst of mankind and you call yourself a man of god then I don't have reason to trust or believe you.

It should not be about converting but just accepting people who are the way they are. No judgement, no scorn, not hate, just accept. If there is a problem, help them but don't expect some miraculous change in them. If they are troubled, be a friend. Don't make them in your image, you just might be wrong. Consider that possibility before you tell others what to believe or what is right or wrong.

There might be a god, but logic tells me not to bank on it. There might be benefit in prayer but I will trust science. There might be a hell but if I love what I see as a logical and ethical life I'm not going to worry about something that may or may not happen after my death.

We have brains for a reason. We should not blindly refuse to use them because of a fairy tale. If after all examination you choose to believe, if you have proved to yourself beyond any shadow of a doubt at all then good for your. If you tell me that you are right and can't prove it to me, then I will not believe you. If you threaten me then you have already lost the argument. Twisting my arm to convert is not a real belief or conversation. A prisoner that converts to radical islam at the point of a sword or fear of suffer pain and death is not a true belief, just lip service. Brainwashing is not real belief. Dying for your faith is just a waste of a life. Living as an example of your faith, a faith of love and caring of other life, of all people is more worthy of life. Counting bodies or soul you save is not. Expecting a reward of heaven or rapture is not. Presuming a belief in some book or god makes you more deserving or better than others is not.

I've seen what an insistent faith in religion or god can do to the world. Not pretty. I can't believe they are going to any heaven or be near any god worthy of my time or consideration. I will trust my brain to guide me. I will trust what I can see, what I know. I will trust my experience. I will trust what I can prove, or that can be proved to me.

I'm here to watch the hamsters till they learn to think for themselves and escape the wheel or can prove to me that running the wheel is the only perfection there is to life in the universe.

I question who is twisting your arm to believe? You say you resent others’ opinions on these matters, why is that? Because they question yours? That makes one feel violated? I welcome it. Why is it, according to you, that only those who deny God’s reality are using their brains, but those who spent years deliberating many messages and accounts and come to believe are not using their brains? What kind of “logical” statement is that?

I ask you do not judge my faith by including what other faiths or religions may have done or said.

I submit what you accuse Christians of being like (harmful to others) is not a valid justification to disprove the truth. There will always be great sinners and scoundrels in the faith. How does that discredit the majority of other who try to do all those charitable acts you try to associate only with those who have no belief in God? How does the sinning of some believers destroy the message? Or the reality of Jesus Christ?

But since all of the historical claims, all of the goodness in the teachings, all of the charity performed by the Church and the faithful over centuries (so easily dismissed and glossed over because we also sin) does nothing for you, then what do you demand? You demand supernatural proof. Miracles that you can accept. But you are not disposed to believe, you are disposed to deny. Your words make that clear to me. You are making it very hard on yourself. Or perhaps you simply do not want to believe as I already proffered? How can a mere, vulnerable witness break through those walls?

Note, I am not here to puff myself up. I am not trying to show God look what I did. That is not Christian. But as a believing Christian the Word implores us not to keep our faith to ourselves but to share it with others, along with also caring for our neighbor. I do not accept Christianity has been a bully by any means, I look at all of history and I can count all of the goodness, advancements, civilizing boorish cultures, yielding education and hospitals and care for the most needy, the giving of ones’ lives, and so on far beyond what I mention, and I see the goodness of God amongst us sinners who still believe and repent of our weaknesses and sinful ways.

And, yes, we are human and we do seek the Lord’s promises of eternal life. You declare that makes all of our acts of charity and sacrifice as disingenuous? That is quite a brazen denunciation. No, we recognize who God is and what He asks of us. We do so because we want to follow our Lord and in so doing we become more blessed ourselves. The thought of evaporating into oblivion upon death and never seeing our loved ones again is very much hard to bear. Atheism is dour. I not only want to save myself, but those dear to me. Tell me that is not more honorable than selfish. Feel free to call us hamsters on a wheel or sheep. Yes we are sheep, but only willing to follow the one good shepherd.

Faith is not about saving a number of souls, it is about finding peace and happiness inside yourself. You can't tell others how to believe or what to believe or any belief at all.
Hating other for not believing is worse that believing a fantasy. Fearing faith and damnation will likely bring your worse fears to life.
We live to fight for life not await some glowing glorious death and salvation. This is what we get. For some people death is better than life but it is an end not a beginning.
We make our own hell, or we can make the best of our life. It is up to us not to some god or super figure playing god. War is hell. Torture is hell. Pain and suffering are hell. You make it into something worth living for or you seek an escape to nothingness, everlasting peace.
I've seen people so wrapped up in the belief of prayer they did not bother to really live. Prayer would solve all problems. Religion was the answer. God would save us. Didn't happen. People so convinced in religion they will kill and commit the most horrific and unspeakable crime in the name of some god. They are doing god's holy works and will win a place in heaven. Not!
Faith is not serving god by force or fear. Faith is a calm warm feeling of peace and the ability to find love and beauty in everything and anything. It is not about blame or shame or want. It is finding your place and making yourself happy in it. It does not require a church or suffering or sacrifice.
Religion has caused so much of the tragedy the human race as suffered. This god is at war with that god and men are the weapons.
Every massacre and brutality has been in the name of some god. Man has conquered and spread disease in the name of god's service or saving souls.
Where is the peace and love when there is so much blood and death?
Struggling, anger, judgement, discontent, violence in any form is not serving any god or faith unless you believe in a devil and doing his work.
Faith is the warmth of sinking into the sand or floating on a wave. It is effortless. It is letting go of needs and wants.

If you really believe in love and serenity then believe, but no church or prayer or song will make it happen to you. It comes out of you.

You don't have bully others to believe as you do. Encourage them to find that thing inside themselves.

Be the best person you can be in this life. Don't expect another. If there is a god, serving others without expectation or demands is the best way to find that bit of god inside you.

Don't worry about an after life or next life and this or that religion. Either you are decent human here and now or nothing.

If there is a hell, every threat, harsh word, thought, condemnation will only ensure you table is waiting.

I prefer the light. I've seen too much of the dark in the world.
Do you believe in this world and the future of your children and grandchildren? That is our judge and reward. That is your heaven

If you really choose to believe there is an actual god of love and mercy, then love your fellow man, no matter how low or high they are. Be merciful to all, don't berate them for no following your rules. They don't have to believe in the same god or any god, just be nice to everyone. That is the joy, that is the reward. Take a deep breath and relax. Put on soothing music. Make a cup of tea for yourself and someone else. Smile.